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On July 03 2013 04:46 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction. Then most of them are doing it wrong. Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often.
Faster pushing and faster towers down have a greater effect on the game than the minor differences of gold worth of attack speed vs damage. This is a case where the #s are misleading.
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On July 03 2013 05:11 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:53 Sandster wrote:On July 03 2013 04:43 RouaF wrote:On July 03 2013 03:59 Osmoses wrote:On July 03 2013 03:27 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 03:13 Lounge wrote:
GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
This isn't true. Pantheon will DEFINITELY win in minion kills if he plays it out properly, and Pantheon is far stronger lategame / teamfights than GP is. People need to stop saying Pantheon is a bad teamfighter. Just last game we were far behind and we crush a teamfight because I stay back, have my overextending team get dived, and then HSS 3 people at once from a distance. Bam, instant teamfight victory. You two need to 1vs1 toplane and stream it. On July 03 2013 03:10 RouaF wrote:
Can we stop the panth vs gp debate please it makes me sad :/ it reminds me of my plat smurf with which i pick gp into panth and people are like "OMFG U SO DUMB WHY U PICK GP, PANTH IS GP COUNTER" when there is no way in hell panth can win this matchup. Yes maxing Q and using parrley on panth will make you lose, yes maxing W and starting charm 5 health pot 1 mana pot +ward (and buying tears at first back) will make you instantly WIN. Pantheon can just not kill you unless you play like an idiot, and people on TL do not play like idiots do they ? Or you. I doubt diamond 1 against gold would give a good measure of the matchup :/ Pffft we're all diamond 1 level, just bad teammates dragging us down. Yeah that's it. I could fill in as a Panth Diamond main, but I'm pretty sure he's right. GP shouldn't lose to Panth in lane. At the same time, I feel like Panth brings a lot more in the mid-game than GP thanks to his ult.
Honestly a well placed gp ult can win you bot lane so easily in a fight.Gp has a lot more utility.Pant is just a pubstomp champ imo.
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On July 03 2013 05:20 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:11 mr_tolkien wrote:On July 03 2013 04:53 Sandster wrote:On July 03 2013 04:43 RouaF wrote:On July 03 2013 03:59 Osmoses wrote:On July 03 2013 03:27 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 03:13 Lounge wrote:
GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
This isn't true. Pantheon will DEFINITELY win in minion kills if he plays it out properly, and Pantheon is far stronger lategame / teamfights than GP is. People need to stop saying Pantheon is a bad teamfighter. Just last game we were far behind and we crush a teamfight because I stay back, have my overextending team get dived, and then HSS 3 people at once from a distance. Bam, instant teamfight victory. You two need to 1vs1 toplane and stream it. On July 03 2013 03:10 RouaF wrote:
Can we stop the panth vs gp debate please it makes me sad :/ it reminds me of my plat smurf with which i pick gp into panth and people are like "OMFG U SO DUMB WHY U PICK GP, PANTH IS GP COUNTER" when there is no way in hell panth can win this matchup. Yes maxing Q and using parrley on panth will make you lose, yes maxing W and starting charm 5 health pot 1 mana pot +ward (and buying tears at first back) will make you instantly WIN. Pantheon can just not kill you unless you play like an idiot, and people on TL do not play like idiots do they ? Or you. I doubt diamond 1 against gold would give a good measure of the matchup :/ Pffft we're all diamond 1 level, just bad teammates dragging us down. Yeah that's it. I could fill in as a Panth Diamond main, but I'm pretty sure he's right. GP shouldn't lose to Panth in lane. At the same time, I feel like Panth brings a lot more in the mid-game than GP thanks to his ult. Honestly a well placed gp ult can win you bot lane so easily in a fight.Gp has a lot more utility.Pant is just a pubstomp champ imo.
That Raise Morale is also rather undervalued. Sure you can't deny the enemy lane massive amounts of levels if done right, but it's still pretty potent.
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On July 03 2013 05:20 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:11 mr_tolkien wrote:On July 03 2013 04:53 Sandster wrote:On July 03 2013 04:43 RouaF wrote:On July 03 2013 03:59 Osmoses wrote:On July 03 2013 03:27 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 03:13 Lounge wrote:
GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
This isn't true. Pantheon will DEFINITELY win in minion kills if he plays it out properly, and Pantheon is far stronger lategame / teamfights than GP is. People need to stop saying Pantheon is a bad teamfighter. Just last game we were far behind and we crush a teamfight because I stay back, have my overextending team get dived, and then HSS 3 people at once from a distance. Bam, instant teamfight victory. You two need to 1vs1 toplane and stream it. On July 03 2013 03:10 RouaF wrote:
Can we stop the panth vs gp debate please it makes me sad :/ it reminds me of my plat smurf with which i pick gp into panth and people are like "OMFG U SO DUMB WHY U PICK GP, PANTH IS GP COUNTER" when there is no way in hell panth can win this matchup. Yes maxing Q and using parrley on panth will make you lose, yes maxing W and starting charm 5 health pot 1 mana pot +ward (and buying tears at first back) will make you instantly WIN. Pantheon can just not kill you unless you play like an idiot, and people on TL do not play like idiots do they ? Or you. I doubt diamond 1 against gold would give a good measure of the matchup :/ Pffft we're all diamond 1 level, just bad teammates dragging us down. Yeah that's it. I could fill in as a Panth Diamond main, but I'm pretty sure he's right. GP shouldn't lose to Panth in lane. At the same time, I feel like Panth brings a lot more in the mid-game than GP thanks to his ult. Honestly a well placed gp ult can win you bot lane so easily in a fight.Gp has a lot more utility.Pant is just a pubstomp champ imo.
The randomness of GP's ult is pretty hilarious though.
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I dunno, wide AOE slow is pretty darn useful in teamfights. If anything it's Pantheon's point and click gapclose stun and large damage threat from pantheon that make him strong in midgame teamfights. Pantheon ult is a lot harder to gank with than TF ult.
Sure, the DAMAGE from GP's ult is random, but the slow isn't. And because the slow is reliable, it can do a lot.
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On July 03 2013 05:30 sylverfyre wrote:
I dunno, wide AOE slow is pretty darn useful in teamfights. If anything it's Pantheon's point and click gapclose stun and large damage threat from pantheon that make him strong in midgame teamfights. Pantheon ult is a lot harder to gank with than TF ult.
Sure, the DAMAGE from GP's ult is random, but the slow isn't. And because the slow is reliable, it can do a lot.
Well... Panth ult is also a wide AoE slow :p
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Having played in gold under the old system and now in sliver 1 almost gold 5, so my opinon doesn't really matter when compared to some of the other better players that post here. I've never had trouble as GP vs panth because I just followed the idea of maxing W and out farming panth and then getting huge that way while helping out the team with my ult.
just my two cents.
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Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<;
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On July 03 2013 05:20 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:46 Ketara wrote:On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction. Then most of them are doing it wrong. Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often. Faster pushing and faster towers down have a greater effect on the game than the minor differences of gold worth of attack speed vs damage. This is a case where the #s are misleading.
Lets examine these points.
3 points in Fury (3% attack speed) vs. 3 points in Havoc (2% damage)
Fury is giving you an extra 1% overall damage on your autoattacks.
In fact, for last hitting, it's actually giving you less damage. Since Executioner is giving you 5% more damage and these bonuses scale multiplicatively, you're actually getting 2.1% extra damage from Havoc, so a 0.9% overall damage increase with autoattacks.
So, which makes you better at pushing?
Assuming that you are never going to use a single skill when you push, Fury would make you 0.9% better at pushing. This is blatantly not the case, everybody uses skills when they push minion waves.
Granted, a lot of the time you're going to be in situations where you'd kill the minion in the same number of hits with or without Fury, so there is that. There's also going to be situations where that extra 2.1% damage will mean you kill the thing in 1 less hit.
For pushing towers, we're talking the same thing. 3 points in Fury is going to make you 0.9% better at pushing towers than Havoc is, if you're taking Destruction.
However, it's worth noting that in a siege situation, Havoc is going to be better, because you often won't get to just sit there autoattacking, you're going to be able to take a certain number of shots and then back out. That number of shots is not likely to change with a 3% attack speed difference.
Finally, to the statement that attack speed makes it easier to shoot and move, I don't know what game you're playing, but it's easier to shoot-move-shoot the slower your attack speed is, because you get more time to move between attacks and are losing less overall DPS by doing it.
If you think being 0.9% better at autoattacking towers at a standstill is worth doing more damage at all stages of the game, more power to you. I think I disagree. The only ADC I might argue for Fury on would be Vayne, since Havoc doesn't affect true damage (not sure why it doesn't)
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On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<;
While Panth's late game usefulness was brought up, isn't the debate suppose to be about GP vs Panth in lane? Sure, you are making a fair point on panth being good for you late game in your league but the original discussion is GP can beat panth if you change up the style and max W.
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It was in response to GP surviving to late game and being more useful. Shikyo is arguing against the claim of more usefulness.
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On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<;
I wonder why.
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On July 03 2013 05:51 Shelke14 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; While Panth's late game usefulness was brought up, isn't the debate suppose to be about GP vs Panth in lane? Sure, you are making a fair point on panth being good for you late game in your league but the original discussion is GP can beat panth if you change up the style and max W.
The point they are making about GP vs Pantheon in lane is:
"GP can survive by spamming pots and last hitting from a distance, missing numerous minions and being behind so he wins lane". I disagree completely, as even if that was possible(I forced a full armor malphite off the lane just last game and killed him under turret), I believe that Pantheon is far stronger than Gangplank mid/lategame so he needs to do far better than "being able to farm a little" to even come close to winning.
Hence I need to establish Pantheon's lategame being good.
On July 03 2013 05:54 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; I wonder why.
At least I'm using examples / logical analysis / contributing far more than you who seem to enjoy flaming me every time I post even when you have nothing to add.
edit: wait the full armor malphite wasn't last game ><
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On July 03 2013 05:57 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:51 Shelke14 wrote:On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; While Panth's late game usefulness was brought up, isn't the debate suppose to be about GP vs Panth in lane? Sure, you are making a fair point on panth being good for you late game in your league but the original discussion is GP can beat panth if you change up the style and max W. The point they are making about GP vs Pantheon in lane is: "GP can survive by spamming pots and last hitting from a distance, missing numerous minions and being behind so he wins lane". I disagree completely, as even if that was possible(I forced a full armor malphite off the lane just last game and killed him under turret), I believe that Pantheon is far stronger than Gangplank mid/lategame so he needs to do far better than "being able to farm a little" to even come close to winning. Hence I need to establish Pantheon's lategame being good.
How is pantheon a lot stronger?Unless they randomly decide to completely ignore you pant can't do shit.GP gives a decent engage and that's more than what pant has to offer.All your damage is you standing still and them not moving or randomly letting you use your more than obvious jump.
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Saying a Korean pro does it "wrong" is kind of silly to me. I'm sure they have coaches that are theory crafting for them. Not all of league can be answered with math. Sometimes it really just depends on what feels right. Anyway, that's just what I think, doesn't really matter overall.
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On July 03 2013 05:59 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:57 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 05:51 Shelke14 wrote:On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; While Panth's late game usefulness was brought up, isn't the debate suppose to be about GP vs Panth in lane? Sure, you are making a fair point on panth being good for you late game in your league but the original discussion is GP can beat panth if you change up the style and max W. The point they are making about GP vs Pantheon in lane is: "GP can survive by spamming pots and last hitting from a distance, missing numerous minions and being behind so he wins lane". I disagree completely, as even if that was possible(I forced a full armor malphite off the lane just last game and killed him under turret), I believe that Pantheon is far stronger than Gangplank mid/lategame so he needs to do far better than "being able to farm a little" to even come close to winning. Hence I need to establish Pantheon's lategame being good. How is pantheon a lot stronger?Unless they randomly decide to completely ignore you pant can't do shit.GP gives a decent engage and that's more than what pant has to offer.All your damage is you standing still and them not moving or randomly letting you use your more than obvious jump.
They need to ignore you because you position like a ranged ADC They got to dive through your team.
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On July 03 2013 05:57 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:51 Shelke14 wrote:On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; While Panth's late game usefulness was brought up, isn't the debate suppose to be about GP vs Panth in lane? Sure, you are making a fair point on panth being good for you late game in your league but the original discussion is GP can beat panth if you change up the style and max W. The point they are making about GP vs Pantheon in lane is: "GP can survive by spamming pots and last hitting from a distance, missing numerous minions and being behind so he wins lane". I disagree completely, as even if that was possible(I forced a full armor malphite off the lane just last game and killed him under turret), I believe that Pantheon is far stronger than Gangplank mid/lategame so he needs to do far better than "being able to farm a little" to even come close to winning. Hence I need to establish Pantheon's lategame being good. Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:54 Zdrastochye wrote:On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; I wonder why. At least I'm using examples / logical analysis / contributing far more than you who seem to enjoy flaming me every time I post even when you have nothing to add.
Because you make the assumption that you're right, and will refuse to be swayed no matter what kind of evidence is put before you, it's why debating (or arguing) with you is pointless because nobody can tell you you're wrong. What sort of evidence do you want between GP vs Panth lanes that people haven't given you already? There's been many people commenting on the matchup, but it appears none of them have swayed you yet.
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On July 03 2013 05:59 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:57 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 05:51 Shelke14 wrote:On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; While Panth's late game usefulness was brought up, isn't the debate suppose to be about GP vs Panth in lane? Sure, you are making a fair point on panth being good for you late game in your league but the original discussion is GP can beat panth if you change up the style and max W. The point they are making about GP vs Pantheon in lane is: "GP can survive by spamming pots and last hitting from a distance, missing numerous minions and being behind so he wins lane". I disagree completely, as even if that was possible(I forced a full armor malphite off the lane just last game and killed him under turret), I believe that Pantheon is far stronger than Gangplank mid/lategame so he needs to do far better than "being able to farm a little" to even come close to winning. Hence I need to establish Pantheon's lategame being good. How is pantheon a lot stronger?Unless they randomly decide to completely ignore you pant can't do shit.GP gives a decent engage and that's more than what pant has to offer.All your damage is you standing still and them not moving or randomly letting you use your more than obvious jump.
Nafta, honey, GP ult is at most as good as Panth's. Panth ult is an AoE 1k magic damage nuke slow, and it allows him to directly be where he wants in a teamfight.
Pantheon IS very underestimated in teamfights if you play him properly, and brings a lot to the table. It's just like Karma, there is some form of taboo thinking those characters are good in the LoL community, and I don't really get why.
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On July 03 2013 06:02 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:59 nafta wrote:On July 03 2013 05:57 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 05:51 Shelke14 wrote:On July 03 2013 05:38 Shikyo wrote:
Okay, more empiric evidence:
Go 1-6-1 as Pantheon in lane vs Malphite, get 0 ganks off total. Team at half the kills of enemy. Enter teamfights, get 2 delayed pentas in teamfights, end 13-8-13, victory.
So screw nonbelievers. Pantheon lategame is way too good for you to "beat him" by "staying alive".
And yes every high elo streamer I've seen play Pantheon plays him completely wrong lategame.
btw this isn't meant as bragging, I'm trying to make a point.
No one believes me though <.<; While Panth's late game usefulness was brought up, isn't the debate suppose to be about GP vs Panth in lane? Sure, you are making a fair point on panth being good for you late game in your league but the original discussion is GP can beat panth if you change up the style and max W. The point they are making about GP vs Pantheon in lane is: "GP can survive by spamming pots and last hitting from a distance, missing numerous minions and being behind so he wins lane". I disagree completely, as even if that was possible(I forced a full armor malphite off the lane just last game and killed him under turret), I believe that Pantheon is far stronger than Gangplank mid/lategame so he needs to do far better than "being able to farm a little" to even come close to winning. Hence I need to establish Pantheon's lategame being good. How is pantheon a lot stronger?Unless they randomly decide to completely ignore you pant can't do shit.GP gives a decent engage and that's more than what pant has to offer.All your damage is you standing still and them not moving or randomly letting you use your more than obvious jump. Nafta, honey, GP ult is at most as good as Panth's. Panth ult is an AoE 1k magic damage nuke slow, and it allows him to directly be where he wants in a teamfight. Pantheon IS very underestimated in teamfights if you play him properly, and brings a lot to the table. It's just like Karma, there is some form of taboo thinking those characters are good in the LoL community, and I don't really get why.
I have never seen a pant actually do something unless people give him multiple kills for absolutely no reason early.I don't think he is good because that's what I have seen and just looking at his kit I don't see the lategame power lol.
GP at least offers instant huge aoe slow a slight speedup and yeah not much more but it still is more.
I played karma mid s1 and s2 pls.
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Cus they have very niche/unique playstyles and said style changes drastically during different parts of the game.
Its like going from playing Alistar to Janna at the 20 minute mark.
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EPT
