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On July 03 2013 04:19 DrunkenOne wrote:
So I'm guessing you use panth to counterinitiate and peel divers using stun and hss? And I guess execute any divers who are low? Cause I usually wreck early game, feel super manly because I'm like 7-0, then try diving with him and instantly die because im a glass cannon. I'm also really bad at panth.
Ah yay, last game got a new record, 19 kills with Pantheon and also went up for promotion into Gold III! If I can win this I'm one league closer to plat :3 Pretty nice pace, I think it's not been more than just a few weeks when I was promoted to Gold for the first time. Even this game I won my lane, most of the team lost, we were like 16-12 midgame and ended it 40-20 because we just crushed every teamfight.
So as Pantheon in the lategame I just wait around for initiate and then walk in and HSS from max range, then maybe spear or just move back... And well I'm not sure, after hitting that one HSS the enemy team drops from full to like 30% hp so after that I generally just activate ghost and chase them down. The only times we lose teamfights is if my team are all completely far behind, Pantheon is like freewin in teamfights. Don't even need a tank to initiate(that's just unfairly easy then), just need a suicide bait so that you can freely land a single HSS.
With max items(BT, BT, LW, BC, GA, boots), one HSS deals 1400+ AoE damage and applies 3 stacks of BC for your ADC or you.
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I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction.
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The biggest thing with Pantheon is that your playstyle turns 180 between early/midgame and later on. Early on you try to crush your lane, pick up kills, gank with your ult, etc. Afterwards you split push (HSS instantly clears waves) and just jump away when they try to come get you. You *can* beat many champs 1v1, but usually cannot 1v1 the dedicated split pushers at this point. In fights later on you never use your stun to jump into the other team unless you are absolutely certain you can get out (or will kill the guy), and almost exclusively use it to peel or escape.
Pantheon is weird - you can't initiate, you can't dive, and if you peel but your adc does no damage then you don't DO much. But you do a truckload of damage and apply BC stacks so you're always useful, and spear/HSS have far enough range and short enough cd that you are always on the outskirts of the fight doing damage.
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On July 03 2013 04:30 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:26 xMiragex wrote:
I haven't played pantheon but it sounds like popular opinion on him is suffering from nasus syndrome where people said he was only a Q bot and needed a gap closer.. And then Nasus was so OP he needed a nerf. Panth is really strong atm, he's just out of flavor.
I'm actually playing Nasus a bit now and he seems strong at least vs scrub nubs. He's a very easy jungler, never gets low, can guarantee damage on almost any gank and punishes people out of position with a non skill shot. Plus he's a honeybadger in teamfights.
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On July 03 2013 04:30 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:26 xMiragex wrote:
I haven't played pantheon but it sounds like popular opinion on him is suffering from nasus syndrome where people said he was only a Q bot and needed a gap closer.. And then Nasus was so OP he needed a nerf. Panth is really strong atm, he's just out of flavor.
Well Nasus wither was always brokenly OP after they changed how tenacity works with it. His ulti was also quite strong. The only issue was that Nasus was utterly terrible in every other aspect until all his small buffs added up. Although I suspect Nasus could very likely have been a competitive pick much earlier if pros were more willing to experiment. Wither really was that strong.
Imo, patch V1.0.0.123 (Skarner patch) was the patch that made him viable. It just wasn't until the S3 buffs when people discovered that Nasus was a champion.
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On July 03 2013 04:31 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:19 DrunkenOne wrote:
So I'm guessing you use panth to counterinitiate and peel divers using stun and hss? And I guess execute any divers who are low? Cause I usually wreck early game, feel super manly because I'm like 7-0, then try diving with him and instantly die because im a glass cannon. I'm also really bad at panth. Ah yay, last game got a new record, 19 kills with Pantheon and also went up for promotion into Gold III! If I can win this I'm one league closer to plat :3 Pretty nice pace, I think it's not been more than just a few weeks when I was promoted to Gold for the first time. Even this game I won my lane, most of the team lost, we were like 16-12 midgame and ended it 40-20 because we just crushed every teamfight. So as Pantheon in the lategame I just wait around for initiate and then walk in and HSS from max range, then maybe spear or just move back... And well I'm not sure, after hitting that one HSS the enemy team drops from full to like 30% hp so after that I generally just activate ghost and chase them down. The only times we lose teamfights is if my team are all completely far behind, Pantheon is like freewin in teamfights. Don't even need a tank to initiate(that's just unfairly easy then), just need a suicide bait so that you can freely land a single HSS. With max items(BT, BT, LW, BC, GA, boots), one HSS deals 1400+ AoE damage and applies 3 stacks of BC for your ADC or you.
I just hit Gold III myself few days ago. I assume you EU? Add me Numyza 
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Personally I believe a max CDR black cleaver / BotRK Nasus might be really powerful.
#1 E gives him way too much armor reduction that scales with both items too well, wtf is with AoE 40 flat armor reduction anyway?
#2 He gets tons of free damage from everything so armor pen of course is beneficial to stack. Enemy at 0 armor -> Q oneshots them and you also lifesteal 500 hp per attack like a boss.
#3 BotRK gives him a lot more sticking power in teamfights. While Wither slows, BotRK gives him the speedup that he really enjoys. Combine with something like Gauntlet and tah-dah~. What can stop you?
Build is at a theory level, tested only once vs bots.
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On July 03 2013 03:59 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:27 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 03:13 Lounge wrote:
GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
This isn't true. Pantheon will DEFINITELY win in minion kills if he plays it out properly, and Pantheon is far stronger lategame / teamfights than GP is. People need to stop saying Pantheon is a bad teamfighter. Just last game we were far behind and we crush a teamfight because I stay back, have my overextending team get dived, and then HSS 3 people at once from a distance. Bam, instant teamfight victory. You two need to 1vs1 toplane and stream it. Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:10 RouaF wrote:
Can we stop the panth vs gp debate please it makes me sad :/ it reminds me of my plat smurf with which i pick gp into panth and people are like "OMFG U SO DUMB WHY U PICK GP, PANTH IS GP COUNTER" when there is no way in hell panth can win this matchup. Yes maxing Q and using parrley on panth will make you lose, yes maxing W and starting charm 5 health pot 1 mana pot +ward (and buying tears at first back) will make you instantly WIN. Pantheon can just not kill you unless you play like an idiot, and people on TL do not play like idiots do they ? Or you.
I doubt diamond 1 against gold would give a good measure of the matchup :/
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On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction.
Then most of them are doing it wrong.
Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often.
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On July 03 2013 04:35 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:30 mr_tolkien wrote:On July 03 2013 04:26 xMiragex wrote:
I haven't played pantheon but it sounds like popular opinion on him is suffering from nasus syndrome where people said he was only a Q bot and needed a gap closer.. And then Nasus was so OP he needed a nerf. Panth is really strong atm, he's just out of flavor. Well Nasus wither was always brokenly OP after they changed how tenacity works with it. His ulti was also quite strong. The only issue was that Nasus was utterly terrible in every other aspect until all his small buffs added up. Although I suspect Nasus could very likely have been a competitive pick much earlier if pros were more willing to experiment. Wither really was that strong. Imo, patch V1.0.0.123 (Skarner patch) was the patch that made him viable. It just wasn't until the S3 buffs when people discovered that Nasus was a champion.
Was used occasionally. Remember Voy using him against Wickd's Irelia (a decent Nasus matchup).
Really the changes to Nasus Q on big minions pushed people to realize his jungling potential.
His top lane matchups are still generally similar, however. Freefarms/survives some lanes, loses others hard.
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On July 03 2013 04:43 RouaF wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 03:59 Osmoses wrote:On July 03 2013 03:27 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 03:13 Lounge wrote:
GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
This isn't true. Pantheon will DEFINITELY win in minion kills if he plays it out properly, and Pantheon is far stronger lategame / teamfights than GP is. People need to stop saying Pantheon is a bad teamfighter. Just last game we were far behind and we crush a teamfight because I stay back, have my overextending team get dived, and then HSS 3 people at once from a distance. Bam, instant teamfight victory. You two need to 1vs1 toplane and stream it. On July 03 2013 03:10 RouaF wrote:
Can we stop the panth vs gp debate please it makes me sad :/ it reminds me of my plat smurf with which i pick gp into panth and people are like "OMFG U SO DUMB WHY U PICK GP, PANTH IS GP COUNTER" when there is no way in hell panth can win this matchup. Yes maxing Q and using parrley on panth will make you lose, yes maxing W and starting charm 5 health pot 1 mana pot +ward (and buying tears at first back) will make you instantly WIN. Pantheon can just not kill you unless you play like an idiot, and people on TL do not play like idiots do they ? Or you. I doubt diamond 1 against gold would give a good measure of the matchup :/
Pffft we're all diamond 1 level, just bad teammates dragging us down.
Yeah that's it.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 03 2013 04:46 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:35 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 03 2013 04:30 mr_tolkien wrote:On July 03 2013 04:26 xMiragex wrote:
I haven't played pantheon but it sounds like popular opinion on him is suffering from nasus syndrome where people said he was only a Q bot and needed a gap closer.. And then Nasus was so OP he needed a nerf. Panth is really strong atm, he's just out of flavor. Well Nasus wither was always brokenly OP after they changed how tenacity works with it. His ulti was also quite strong. The only issue was that Nasus was utterly terrible in every other aspect until all his small buffs added up. Although I suspect Nasus could very likely have been a competitive pick much earlier if pros were more willing to experiment. Wither really was that strong. Imo, patch V1.0.0.123 (Skarner patch) was the patch that made him viable. It just wasn't until the S3 buffs when people discovered that Nasus was a champion. Was used occasionally. Remember Voy using him against Wickd's Irelia (a decent Nasus matchup). Really the changes to Nasus Q on big minions pushed people to realize his jungling potential. His top lane matchups are still generally similar, however. Freefarms/survives some lanes, loses others hard.
Yep, Voy played Nasus Top before the buffs at Lone Star Clash 2. It worked the first time but they tried it again in the next game of the set and lost.
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On July 03 2013 04:46 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:32 Lylat wrote:
I searched koreans pro on probuilds and most of them don't put point on havoc but 4 on fury, 2 on butcher and 1 on destruction. Then most of them are doing it wrong. Not the first time we've mathematically shown that pros aren't building the most efficient way. Fact is League players don't theorycraft enough, it's something we should be doing more often.
The mathematical optimum may be necessarily be the best in practice. The real life value of AS may be more than the 33 gold value because it lets you orb walk easier. Execution and practicality is something that's hard put a gold value to.
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On July 03 2013 04:42 Shikyo wrote:
Personally I believe a max CDR black cleaver / BotRK Nasus might be really powerful.
#1 E gives him way too much armor reduction that scales with both items too well, wtf is with AoE 40 flat armor reduction anyway?
#2 He gets tons of free damage from everything so armor pen of course is beneficial to stack. Enemy at 0 armor -> Q oneshots them and you also lifesteal 500 hp per attack like a boss.
#3 BotRK gives him a lot more sticking power in teamfights. While Wither slows, BotRK gives him the speedup that he really enjoys. Combine with something like Gauntlet and tah-dah~. What can stop you?
Build is at a theory level, tested only once vs bots.
Just build ghostblade instead, it combines both items effectively. I've seen IBG on Nasus quite a bit already. You're buying Bork "inefficiently"-- you're considering it mostly for its active. In theory Nasus can get stupidly high AD while his ult is on and become a pretty dangerous autoattacker, but the attackspeed on Bork is mostly wasted.
IMO on Nasus you don't want more than one offensive item. CDR/tank is much more important.
EDIT: Considering buying hybrid pen runes. Yay or nay? Most of the time I just used the mpen ones, but I can see where hybrids could come in handy-- maybe they'd give me the little extra oomph I need to hit another promo series.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 03 2013 04:57 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:42 Shikyo wrote:
Personally I believe a max CDR black cleaver / BotRK Nasus might be really powerful.
#1 E gives him way too much armor reduction that scales with both items too well, wtf is with AoE 40 flat armor reduction anyway?
#2 He gets tons of free damage from everything so armor pen of course is beneficial to stack. Enemy at 0 armor -> Q oneshots them and you also lifesteal 500 hp per attack like a boss.
#3 BotRK gives him a lot more sticking power in teamfights. While Wither slows, BotRK gives him the speedup that he really enjoys. Combine with something like Gauntlet and tah-dah~. What can stop you?
Build is at a theory level, tested only once vs bots. Just build ghostblade instead, it combines both items effectively. I've seen IBG on Nasus quite a bit already. You're buying Bork "inefficiently"-- you're considering it mostly for its active. In theory Nasus can get stupidly high AD while his ult is on and become a pretty dangerous autoattacker, but the attackspeed on Bork is mostly wasted. IMO on Nasus you don't want more than one offensive item. CDR/tank is much more important. EDIT: Considering buying hybrid runes. Yay or nay?
If you have the IP hybrid runes are nice, hella expensive though.
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Does nasus' s bonus q dmg get included in hyrda's splash?
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On July 03 2013 04:59 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:57 ticklishmusic wrote:On July 03 2013 04:42 Shikyo wrote:
Personally I believe a max CDR black cleaver / BotRK Nasus might be really powerful.
#1 E gives him way too much armor reduction that scales with both items too well, wtf is with AoE 40 flat armor reduction anyway?
#2 He gets tons of free damage from everything so armor pen of course is beneficial to stack. Enemy at 0 armor -> Q oneshots them and you also lifesteal 500 hp per attack like a boss.
#3 BotRK gives him a lot more sticking power in teamfights. While Wither slows, BotRK gives him the speedup that he really enjoys. Combine with something like Gauntlet and tah-dah~. What can stop you?
Build is at a theory level, tested only once vs bots. Just build ghostblade instead, it combines both items effectively. I've seen IBG on Nasus quite a bit already. You're buying Bork "inefficiently"-- you're considering it mostly for its active. In theory Nasus can get stupidly high AD while his ult is on and become a pretty dangerous autoattacker, but the attackspeed on Bork is mostly wasted. IMO on Nasus you don't want more than one offensive item. CDR/tank is much more important. EDIT: Considering buying hybrid runes. Yay or nay? If you have the IP hybrid runes are nice, hella expensive though.
I have like 15k ip, I've got every support, every AD, most of the junglers, and a good selection of older champs. I like to keep 6.3K handy in case there's a cool new champ or a 2 for 1 rune page sale, but honestly I don't know what to do.
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On July 03 2013 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:
Does nasus' s bonus q dmg get included in hyrda's splash?
No, hydra/tiamat damage is based off your AD, and Q damage is "bonus damage".
It does proc off the AD you get from your ult though.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 03 2013 05:02 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:59 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 03 2013 04:57 ticklishmusic wrote:On July 03 2013 04:42 Shikyo wrote:
Personally I believe a max CDR black cleaver / BotRK Nasus might be really powerful.
#1 E gives him way too much armor reduction that scales with both items too well, wtf is with AoE 40 flat armor reduction anyway?
#2 He gets tons of free damage from everything so armor pen of course is beneficial to stack. Enemy at 0 armor -> Q oneshots them and you also lifesteal 500 hp per attack like a boss.
#3 BotRK gives him a lot more sticking power in teamfights. While Wither slows, BotRK gives him the speedup that he really enjoys. Combine with something like Gauntlet and tah-dah~. What can stop you?
Build is at a theory level, tested only once vs bots. Just build ghostblade instead, it combines both items effectively. I've seen IBG on Nasus quite a bit already. You're buying Bork "inefficiently"-- you're considering it mostly for its active. In theory Nasus can get stupidly high AD while his ult is on and become a pretty dangerous autoattacker, but the attackspeed on Bork is mostly wasted. IMO on Nasus you don't want more than one offensive item. CDR/tank is much more important. EDIT: Considering buying hybrid runes. Yay or nay? If you have the IP hybrid runes are nice, hella expensive though. I have like 15k ip, I've got every support, every AD, most of the junglers, and a good selection of older champs. I like to keep 6.3K handy in case there's a cool new champ or a 2 for 1 rune page sale, but honestly I don't know what to do.
They just had a 2 for 1 rune page sale so the next one probably won't be for a while. Like I said, I like them since a lot of champs, especially mid, get a lot of AA harass off. You can always save up more IP for champs lol.
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On July 03 2013 04:53 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:43 RouaF wrote:On July 03 2013 03:59 Osmoses wrote:On July 03 2013 03:27 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2013 03:13 Lounge wrote:
GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
This isn't true. Pantheon will DEFINITELY win in minion kills if he plays it out properly, and Pantheon is far stronger lategame / teamfights than GP is. People need to stop saying Pantheon is a bad teamfighter. Just last game we were far behind and we crush a teamfight because I stay back, have my overextending team get dived, and then HSS 3 people at once from a distance. Bam, instant teamfight victory. You two need to 1vs1 toplane and stream it. On July 03 2013 03:10 RouaF wrote:
Can we stop the panth vs gp debate please it makes me sad :/ it reminds me of my plat smurf with which i pick gp into panth and people are like "OMFG U SO DUMB WHY U PICK GP, PANTH IS GP COUNTER" when there is no way in hell panth can win this matchup. Yes maxing Q and using parrley on panth will make you lose, yes maxing W and starting charm 5 health pot 1 mana pot +ward (and buying tears at first back) will make you instantly WIN. Pantheon can just not kill you unless you play like an idiot, and people on TL do not play like idiots do they ? Or you. I doubt diamond 1 against gold would give a good measure of the matchup :/ Pffft we're all diamond 1 level, just bad teammates dragging us down. Yeah that's it.
I could fill in as a Panth Diamond main, but I'm pretty sure he's right. GP shouldn't lose to Panth in lane. At the same time, I feel like Panth brings a lot more in the mid-game than GP thanks to his ult.
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EPT
