On July 03 2013 01:14 Osmoses wrote: I haven't played GP in forever, it may just be that he's terrible in general and therefore not relevant to this argument
This is how I feel as well. Hell, I would take a lot of underfarmed 1v2 champions over a decently farmed 1v2 GP.
Out of curiosity I would like to hear which champions can't 1v2 and are severely hampered by it.
As far as I can see, there are very few champions that were good 1v1, not good 1v2, and played competitively. Even MegaZero and ZionSpartan have made Riven work, and I remember when they debuted that pick that Jatt didn't think they would survive at all.
Irelia and Jax aren't played much anymore specifically because of the 1v2 situation (the S2->S3 changes also, but 1v2ing in particular has made them cry). Darius, and a couple others I'm forgetting.
I think S2 > S3 changes hurt them a ton, some of it incidental (ADCs being weakened, making their dives less threatening), some of it direct (Triforce/Phage nerfs). I remember some AMA where they said that they liked Irelia but not the reliability of the stun.
I don't think Darius was a very strong pick to begin with.
I would think there is some irony if you would nerf 1v2 lanes so that you can get Irelia to be played.
On July 03 2013 02:40 Argoth. wrote: K, he's on Soaz stream right now rocking that jungle Eve. Just the perfect time as I wanna pick up her for jungling =)
Oh he was streaming? LOOL he did so bad in lane I don't understand how didnt he crush with double buffs. Maybe it's because he maxed Q, so he didnt have any sustain whatsoever.
Is Irelia really that bad in a 1v2 situation? I mean, you'd be able to last hit very well under tower with her Q. Plus the Stun would help hopefully get a kill if they dove under your tower. (assuming level 2 at least) Plus doing the whole Bork > tanky is very strong on her, or if you're that far behind cutlass into tanky is fine because you can still count on your true damage to help a lot.
Can we stop the panth vs gp debate please it makes me sad :/ it reminds me of my plat smurf with which i pick gp into panth and people are like "OMFG U SO DUMB WHY U PICK GP, PANTH IS GP COUNTER" when there is no way in hell panth can win this matchup. Yes maxing Q and using parrley on panth will make you lose, yes maxing W and starting charm 5 health pot 1 mana pot +ward (and buying tears at first back) will make you instantly WIN. Pantheon can just not kill you unless you play like an idiot, and people on TL do not play like idiots do they ?
GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
On July 03 2013 01:48 ticklishmusic wrote: Random question, do pros take the +damage to minions mastery? I feel like its a crutch, but it helps scrubs like me (who play like support/ jungle) out a lot.
Yes, most masteries from pros that i've seen with 21 in offense take butcher over havoc.
This is mathematically like so SO stupid. Aside from the 21 pointer Havoc is the largest damage increase of any mastery in the tree for basically everybody on all of their abilities other than autoattacks at level 1.
Not that Butcher is bad, but you should be looking at it in comparison to the other tier 1 offense talents. Havoc is ridiculously efficient per point.
Uh, for AD's the damage is terrible for 3 points. If you do 100 damage with your autoattack, you will now do...102. If you start with ~70 AD like most ADs, you are getting even less, especially after factoring in armor. Compared to 5% turret damage and 4 extra damage to minions (to help early cs'ing), most people prefer the latter.
It's not as bad for APs since spell damages are higher, but it's not an exceptional 3 points by any means. It's mostly used as a filler.
Lets examine this.
I'm Caitlyn lets say. How much autoattack damage am I getting per point for each mastery. We'll ignore the armor pen mastery because it's really good and also dependant on opponents armor.
Brute Force is giving me +1.5 AD per point Deadliness is giving me 0.17 AD per level per point Havoc is giving me +0.66% damage.
At level 1 I'm going to have 50 AD, +9 for AD marks, +10 for a dorans blade or whatever, for a total of 69 AD. We'll round this off to a nice 70 since I'll be getting some AD from masteries regardless.
So at level 1, Brute Force is obviously the clear winner. It gives 1.5 AD per point compared to Deadliness's 0.17 and Havoc's 0.462
Now, lets look at me at level 6. I've gotten another 15 AD from levels at this point. Lets say I've bought a vamp scepter to be conservative, so now I'm at 95 AD.
Now Brute Force is giving me 1.5 AD, Deadliness is giving 1.02, and Havoc is giving 0.627. We're getting closer.
Lets look at level 10. Maybe I've finished a BT at this point. I've gotten 12 more AD from levels and 90 more AD from my BF sword. I'm at 197 AD now.
Brute Force is still only giving me 1.5 AD, but Deadliness is now giving 1.7, and Havoc is giving 1.3. They're still getting closer!
I won't bore you with more silliness but as you can see, Havoc is going to outscale every other mastery and become the very best per point by the time you have something like two items. End game it's going to be giving you two or three times as much damage per mastery point as other talents are.
If you're already in agreement that Havoc is amazing for casters (it is BY FAR the best mastery for casters), look at it this way.
Rather than compare Havoc to other AD masteries, lets compare it to Fury, which gives +1% attack speed per point.
If Fury is increasing your autoattack damage by 1% per point, Havoc is also increasing your autoattack damage by 0.66% per point. But Havoc is also increasing all of your skill damage by 0.66%, and making it 0.66% easier to last hit, something which Fury does not do. If you're worried enough about last hitting in the early game, you'd prefer Havoc over Fury, because Havoc actually helps with that while Fury does not.
If you're worried about the late game, then you wouldn't be getting Butcher at all, you'd be getting both Havoc and Fury. If you want to compare Fury to Havoc in late game, Fury is increasing your autoattack damage by 3% for 3 points, while Havoc is increasing all your damage by 2%. That is a 1% difference, meaning Fury is only better if your skills do less than 1% of your total damage in a fight. Even for AD Carries this is blatantly not true.
Basic point is, if you're going to be taking points out of something for Butcher on an AD Carry page, you should be taking them out of Fury, not out of Havoc. It is quite literally just mathematically better that way.
But the point is Ketara, that you never spec for something to help you late-game. Your runes/masteries is almost always focused around helping you through early-game. And havoc is still shit, you can optimize way better with destruction and the +dmg on minions because it helps you alot more early than havoc.
I just picked Vi into Mundo/Janna/Lissandra/Ahri/Tristana. I think my day is going to be miserable post-initiation. :| I'm gonna need a 3rd jungler too.
Fury is genuinely terrible, for easier last hits get the +2dmg to minions. Or maybe my sarcasm detector broke down today. Probably. But just saying for completeness.
This is what i run 99% of the time when i'm playing AD (sometimes i opt for 21/9). No need to take fury when it's a mere 4% AS (compared to 4% CDR which is 10% of the actual cap). Pretty op i must say.
I would heavily advise you to drop 2% CDR for 2 points in Havoc, unless you think on an AD Carry 2% more skill uptime is better than 1.2% more damage on both your skills and your autoattacks. I guess if you're playing blue Ez maybe that's arguable, but for the rest I'd doubt it quite a lot.
Also have to remember that that 1.2% more damage from Havoc is affecting such things as your BotRK passive/active damage and your Muramana proc damage, if you have either of these items, while CDR and AD do not help with those.
I think the math is pretty clear that Fury/Sorcery are like, by far, the worst thing in the Offense tree, which is the point I'm trying to make. Havoc is pretty good even on the champions it is the worst for.
On July 03 2013 03:20 Scip wrote: Fury is genuinely terrible, for easier last hits get the +2dmg to minions. Or maybe my sarcasm detector broke down today. Probably. But just saying for completeness.
You're missing the point; the idea is to get the +2 dmg to minions; but where do you allocate those points from? Ketara is saying Havoc over Fury.
dont see why 4% attack speed is so much worse than 3 ad when they are both approximately the same gold value (on champs that rely o n attack speed ofc)
On July 03 2013 03:13 Lounge wrote: GP vs Panth is actually a knowledge dependent match-up. If you're using it to argue hard counters it's not a good example. The GP you faced probably had no experience with the match-up and Panth will stomp all over it in that case.
If the GP runs pure armor, specs defensively, and outlasts Pantheon, he wins. GP likely cedes CS early (but the key is not EXP) and makes up for it later with Parrrley gold. GP does not want to trade with Panth, he wants a prolonged auto attack fight.
This isn't true.
Pantheon will DEFINITELY win in minion kills if he plays it out properly, and Pantheon is far stronger lategame / teamfights than GP is.
People need to stop saying Pantheon is a bad teamfighter. Just last game we were far behind and we crush a teamfight because I stay back, have my overextending team get dived, and then HSS 3 people at once from a distance. Bam, instant teamfight victory.
Because attack speed is generally a lot worse for it's value than AD is. also it's 3 AD for 2 points or 4% attack speed for 4 points. But yeah, I think that Havoc is way better than any of its alternatives.
On July 03 2013 03:29 Scip wrote: Because attack speed is generally a lot worse for it's value than AD is. also it's 3 AD for 2 points or 4% attack speed for 4 points. But yeah, I think that Havoc is way better than any of its alternatives.
On July 03 2013 03:18 Alaric wrote: I just picked Vi into Mundo/Janna/Lissandra/Ahri/Tristana. I think my day is going to be miserable post-initiation. :| I'm gonna need a 3rd jungler too.
Vi's Q is bugged as fuck with Lissandra's E too. I used my Q, went ahead of the claw, she teleported on it and I was suddenly moved back behind her as if pulled. Welp, that spell...
On July 03 2013 03:10 SidianTheBard wrote: Is Irelia really that bad in a 1v2 situation? I mean, you'd be able to last hit very well under tower with her Q. Plus the Stun would help hopefully get a kill if they dove under your tower. (assuming level 2 at least) Plus doing the whole Bork > tanky is very strong on her, or if you're that far behind cutlass into tanky is fine because you can still count on your true damage to help a lot.
Your last hitting is extremely predictable, and at best you can Q to pick up melee's. It is never worth going for the ranged creeps as a melee without a ranged clear skill because you'll take like half your health for a couple of creeps. Even then, good supports/AD's can shoot you once for every last hit.
irelia's teamfighting is very item dependant. You really want a full damage item+giant's belt at minimum before fighting because otherwise you either don't do that much damage or you blow up. Really hard to get those items at a decent timing without a decent 1v1 matchup.
Also darius vs Irelia is one of the hardest matchups ever to play. You have timings at 4-5 to do shit 1v1, and if you don't, you cannot possibly win the lane without jungler help.
EPT
