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On June 21 2013 08:38 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 08:35 iCanada wrote:On June 21 2013 08:21 Slusher wrote:
there are a lot of "good" champions that I hate to play against that don't need nerfs, Trynd being popular right now is excruciating but I don't think he's nerfable or even bannable outside of target bans. Jayce pre tear build falls into this category.
in any case the proposed changes seeing how they've decided to do it seem pretty decent to me, my annoyance has shifted to Draven passive changes, but I accept there is basically 0 chance of that not going live so not much else to say about it. So you think its okay that Jayce is ridiculously safe, farms well, all ins well, and is good late game? How is Jayce not ridiculous in his current state? What reason is there NOT to pick Jayce? you don't remember pre mramana build Jayce apparently, his damage was actually pretty low after 30 min. There is a reason he wasn't picked every game and then suddenly was, people keep acting like there, was some balance change to Jayce, when in fact the sea change was a balance change to an item, the very item I advocate they nerf. That said I do like the E nerf after some thought, mid Jayce is too safe atm, top Jayce on the other hand they coulda nerfed tear and called it a day.
He was still picked all the time, what are you talking about.
Only reason people stopped playing him briefly is they nerfed his Melee form E. Went from high base damage+%damage+AD scaling to just scaling with level % damage. Was rather big nerf. And then Maknoon played him in a tournament and just maxxed only EQ and din';t even get a point in W or R and crushed things. Suddenly he picked every game again.
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On June 21 2013 08:40 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 08:38 Slusher wrote:On June 21 2013 08:35 iCanada wrote:On June 21 2013 08:21 Slusher wrote:
there are a lot of "good" champions that I hate to play against that don't need nerfs, Trynd being popular right now is excruciating but I don't think he's nerfable or even bannable outside of target bans. Jayce pre tear build falls into this category.
in any case the proposed changes seeing how they've decided to do it seem pretty decent to me, my annoyance has shifted to Draven passive changes, but I accept there is basically 0 chance of that not going live so not much else to say about it. So you think its okay that Jayce is ridiculously safe, farms well, all ins well, and is good late game? How is Jayce not ridiculous in his current state? What reason is there NOT to pick Jayce? you don't remember pre mramana build Jayce apparently, his damage was actually pretty low after 30 min. There is a reason he wasn't picked every game and then suddenly was, people keep acting like there, was some balance change to Jayce, when in fact the sea change was a balance change to an item, the very item I advocate they nerf. That said I do like the E nerf after some thought, mid Jayce is too safe atm, top Jayce on the other hand they coulda nerfed tear and called it a day. He was still picked all the time, what are you talking about. Only reason people stopped playing him briefly is they nerfed his Melee form E. Went from high base damage+%damage+AD scaling to just scaling with level % damage. Was rather big nerf.
you act like nerfing tear instead of Jayce would give him his old E back? Jayce post E nerf is the Jayce I'm talking about, why would I be talking about pre E nerf Jayce, pre E nerf Jayce dosn't need shock blase thats why people maxed E lol.
the version of Jayce in between the E nerf and muramana build was in my opinion balanced, if we can't agree on that (which I'm guessing we don't) then there isn't much else to talk about.
OGN Jayce pick/ban:
Winter: 37%
Club masters: 26%
Situationally good
Spring: 73%
only one of these 3 seasons was played after the Muramana damage was changed to physical. And we both know the 3rd number would be 100 if the build was unveiled before the season had started.
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Changing muramana from magic damage to physical damage was huge for Jayce after the initial damage nerfs
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On June 21 2013 08:43 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 08:40 iCanada wrote:On June 21 2013 08:38 Slusher wrote:On June 21 2013 08:35 iCanada wrote:On June 21 2013 08:21 Slusher wrote:
there are a lot of "good" champions that I hate to play against that don't need nerfs, Trynd being popular right now is excruciating but I don't think he's nerfable or even bannable outside of target bans. Jayce pre tear build falls into this category.
in any case the proposed changes seeing how they've decided to do it seem pretty decent to me, my annoyance has shifted to Draven passive changes, but I accept there is basically 0 chance of that not going live so not much else to say about it. So you think its okay that Jayce is ridiculously safe, farms well, all ins well, and is good late game? How is Jayce not ridiculous in his current state? What reason is there NOT to pick Jayce? you don't remember pre mramana build Jayce apparently, his damage was actually pretty low after 30 min. There is a reason he wasn't picked every game and then suddenly was, people keep acting like there, was some balance change to Jayce, when in fact the sea change was a balance change to an item, the very item I advocate they nerf. That said I do like the E nerf after some thought, mid Jayce is too safe atm, top Jayce on the other hand they coulda nerfed tear and called it a day. He was still picked all the time, what are you talking about. Only reason people stopped playing him briefly is they nerfed his Melee form E. Went from high base damage+%damage+AD scaling to just scaling with level % damage. Was rather big nerf. you act like nerfing tear instead of Jayce would give him his old E back? Jayce post E nerf is the Jayce I'm talking about, why would I be talking about pre E nerf Jayce, pre E nerf Jayce dosn't need shock blase thats why people maxed E lol. the version of Jayce in between the E nerf and muramana build was in my opinion balanced, if we can't agree on that (which I'm guessing we don't) then there isn't much else to talk about.
So you think it is fine that a champion can build no combat stats and kill people in lane whenever they make a mistake, farm totally safely in lane for free, and be good lategame?
Its not like Muramana only reason Jayce good late game. His Acceleraation gate is like free super Shureylias, his poke absolutely nuts, he peel well, and he doesn't rely on an ultimate. Jayve would still be obnoxious if he built like full tank. Still do a shit ton of poke/skirmish damage without full manamune.
I think he definitely deserves the gutting he getting. He too safe. Not a single champion in the game, regardless of lane matchups/junglers can stop Jayce from farming. That huge.
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like I said a page ago your image of Jayce's "late game" poke is being skewed by him snowballing out of control off of muramana and having 6 items at 25-30 min
Muramana literally ruins all of his item timings, and now people can't even remember what Jayce damage looked like before he was first pick/ban, well I'm here to tell you it was good damage, but not OP damage.
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On June 21 2013 08:56 Slusher wrote:
like I said a page ago your image of Jayce's "late game" poke is being skewed by him snowballing out of control off of muramana and having 6 items at 25-30 min
Muramana literally ruins all of his item timings, and now people can't even remember what Jayce damage looked like before he was first pick/ban, well I'm here to tell you it was good damage, but not OP damage.
Really?
400 damage in an AoE with 170% bonus AD ratio not OP? With just a BT and a LW and rest defensive items that like 700 damage at 1050 range.... every ten seconds.
His EQ combo actually does more damage just buying a BT than buying a Muramana. With a full Muramana you get 39.2+20 AD.
You wrong.
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All I know is that I hate laning against pussy champions like Jayce, Lux and Orianna who have AOE ranged clear if used correctly so that even though you are up 20 kills you can't deny any farm.
I also hate laning against super tanks with slows like Nunu, Malphite, Nasus but at least if you somehow get really ahead you can kill/deny them.
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On June 21 2013 09:06 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 08:56 Slusher wrote:
like I said a page ago your image of Jayce's "late game" poke is being skewed by him snowballing out of control off of muramana and having 6 items at 25-30 min
Muramana literally ruins all of his item timings, and now people can't even remember what Jayce damage looked like before he was first pick/ban, well I'm here to tell you it was good damage, but not OP damage. Really? 400 damage in an AoE with 170% bonus AD ratio not OP? With just a BT and a LW and rest defensive items that like 700 damage at 1050 range.... every ten seconds. His EQ combo actually does more damage just buying a BT than buying a Muramana. With a full Muramana you get 39.2+20 AD. You wrong.
and yet he was picked situationally, because shockblast isn't the problem.
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i hate jayce simply because he looks like a douchebag when he uses Q E
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I'm going to try to explain this as best I can and then I am done because there is some fundamental disconnect from my memory of Jayce pre Muramana change and yours.
lets pretend in WoL (because I have no idea how HotS works) there was a unit you could build, lets call it a M.U.L.E. and lets say that if you rushed a bunch of these to a gold patch, you could make 200 supply of bio waaay before the other race could get near 200 supply and they'd just roll every game with it,
the problem isn't the Marines, it's the unit(muramana) getting you to 200 supply(5+ items) way to quickly.
+ Show Spoiler +please don't go off on a sc2 tangent I admittedly have no clue if MULES were balanced or not
I think the E nerf is "aiight" makes him less safe in mid which is good, top already is fine if you are playing most popular picks vs him. I still think his interaction with tear is the problem and the only thing that needed nerfing but I can live with this. (just in case you forgot what the argument was, because I did)
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On June 21 2013 09:06 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 08:56 Slusher wrote:
like I said a page ago your image of Jayce's "late game" poke is being skewed by him snowballing out of control off of muramana and having 6 items at 25-30 min
Muramana literally ruins all of his item timings, and now people can't even remember what Jayce damage looked like before he was first pick/ban, well I'm here to tell you it was good damage, but not OP damage. Really? 400 damage in an AoE with 170% bonus AD ratio not OP? With just a BT and a LW and rest defensive items that like 700 damage at 1050 range.... every ten seconds. His EQ combo actually does more damage just buying a BT than buying a Muramana. With a full Muramana you get 39.2+20 AD. You wrong.
That's an overexxageration of his damage. Most of the time Jayce's damage gets healed up before he fires another or he misses or only hits the tank.
Also BT LW is very expensive. Most games in yoloqueue don't get that long.
Under ideal circumstances that may sound strong, but under ideal circumstances you could give a Nunu archangels and Deathcap and he would be the most broken thing NA.
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On what planet do these heals for 1/3 to 1/2 a carry/support's health come from? Let's also completely ignore the fact that it's aoe and longer range than you have sight.
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if you could build an item that finished around 16-18 min what would allow you to kill any champion on the map at will and it only worked as efficiently for your champion, take your pick of the cast and that champion is now OP.
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Muramana changing from magic to physical barely even affects jayce. He just needs an AD/mana item so he can spam accelerated shock blasts. Only his rangedW/Autos really abuse the Muramana proc, and that isn't what makes him a terror.
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Touching Jayce's damage would dumpster him? Lol...
As is he can spam EQ in lane when it's up. If it hits(and sometimes even if it doesn't) he can run through the acceleration gate, activate W, go in melee, WQ ignite onto you with his +million movespeed, hithithitE and you're dead or forced off the lane. Oh not to mention you can't fight back because he whacks you half a screen away.
On June 21 2013 09:39 sylverfyre wrote:
Muramana changing from magic to physical barely even affects jayce. He just needs an AD/mana item so he can spam accelerated shock blasts. Only his rangedW/Autos really abuse the Muramana proc, and that isn't what makes him a terror.
Being oneshot is a pretty big terror imo. His E procs it too.
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I give up, you guys are right. Getting 2-3 items above everyone else on the map is balanced, Jayce's skills are broken at a base level and he needs to be reworked.
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The problem with arguing is that people care more about being right instead of learning more about the topic at hand.
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When I stream, I keep getting sniped by an asshole who made an habit of trolling me hard, insulting me, and reporting me every game. I got the «negativity warning» from Riot while not speaking once except for calls in my last 20 games, and being VERY careful about my chat, since next ban is perma-ban.
This guy is pretty obviously aware of that (he must follow my FB page or stg) and, since he reports me every game, I'm bound to go the tribunal. Once in the tribunal, I'm pretty much already perma-banned, we all know how it works.
This is just depressing.
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On June 21 2013 09:41 Shikyo wrote:Touching Jayce's damage would dumpster him? Lol... As is he can spam EQ in lane when it's up. If it hits(and sometimes even if it doesn't) he can run through the acceleration gate, activate W, go in melee, WQ ignite onto you with his +million movespeed, hithithitE and you're dead or forced off the lane. Oh not to mention you can't fight back because he whacks you half a screen away. Show nested quote +On June 21 2013 09:39 sylverfyre wrote:
Muramana changing from magic to physical barely even affects jayce. He just needs an AD/mana item so he can spam accelerated shock blasts. Only his rangedW/Autos really abuse the Muramana proc, and that isn't what makes him a terror. Being oneshot is a pretty big terror imo. His E procs it too.
Oh don't get me wrong. Muramana is a broken as fuck item. But changing it back to magical wouldn't fix jayce.
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Oh by the way, Nidalee spear hitting = g.g. just like Jayce shockblast hitting = g.g. but Nidalee doesn't have a skill that gives his team +50% movespeed to catch up to the enemy team and kill them when they're low.
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EPT
