|
On May 01 2013 06:14 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 05:55 LaM wrote:On May 01 2013 05:53 Chrispy wrote:
azn zagenite or something like that? Nah that was the guy who played Kennen and Teemo right? Fk. I'm gonna google around a bit, although I have no idea what to search. Azen Zagenite was like the best SSBM player in the world <.< Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:10 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Yeah of all people trundle is a big guy you want supporty items on because trundles mostly a utility tank who should focus on E spam and using his ult, he has decent damage but not enough burst or upfront tankyness to be a real dive threat anyways agreed, but I can see the place for a BotRK or BT on his tank build since he has so much AS built in IMO iceborn gauntlet is core on Trundle. Also I've currently lost all games with Trundle. win lane lose game. get kited worse than nasus You really feel the lack of tenacity. Even though his Q was buffed I guess this is the last game with him. Overall a huge nerf due to no tenacity I'd say.
that has absolutely nothing to do with iceborn gauntlet
it doesnt stop a melee being kited because cc and range exist
you're probably playing trundle wrong I was doing great with trnudle anytime i got into midgame okay just by playing pillar spam with locket/bulwark (maybe elder lizard if im fed for damage on assassins and shit)
you just spam pillar so your team can land any skillshots and randomly you can catch people out if you don't have good poke and it forces people to engage on you at some point and thats when you ult their tanks and start doing some damage (and you're still enough of a threat to kill an AD or AP if they ignore you and second pillar should come up in time to let your team finish them off, if they don't ignore you you have your ult boosting your resists and hp)
judging from my previous experience playing with you, you are an extremely selfish player who tends to win lane and farm well but do dumb shit and never play with the team so I suggest working with them more it'll be good practice
|
On May 01 2013 06:13 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:08 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:02 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 05:32 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 05:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 04:41 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 04:26 TheYango wrote:On May 01 2013 04:03 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 04:01 sylverfyre wrote:On May 01 2013 03:57 Shikyo wrote:
So Trundle's subjugate seems like an ult that should be leveled at 6, 17, 18. That's pretty interesting. Haven't seen one like that before. Just the cooldown for leveling it is a pretty compelling reason to do the normal 6/11/16. It's also a %Max Health DRAIN, and even just a few % added onto that is pretty big. nah just that little isn't worth it to me compared to what you get for leveling his other abilities. The main thing is the armor and mr anyway and those aren't affected. 10s off the ult with little to no extra bonuses vs 3s off pillar with a higher slow %... the choice is clear Yup Lissandra icon is the best by far. 20 second CD reduction on ultimate is a big deal. I might consider leaving ranks 2 and 3 until after E is maxed, but given that W doesn't even grant Tenacity anymore, I don't see why you'd max W over getting rank 2/3 ultimate. On May 01 2013 04:07 Ketara wrote:
I dunno, I can def. see an argument for not levelling Trundle ult past 6.
All you get is 10 secs off the cd and 2% more health drain per level. The armor/mr drain remains constant.
Compare that to another level of W giving 5% movespeed, 15% aspd and 3% healing, or dropping the cooldown on his E and getting it closer to where you can use it twice in one fight, I can definitely see levelling it at 6/17/18. Given your role, the 15% ASpd isn't that consequential, 2% health drain on ulti is going to be worth more than 3% total healing, and 10 sec ult CD is probably worth more than 5% MS. 2% health drain is more than 3% total healing? Note it amplifies the ult healing as well, as well as base hp regen or lifesteal. . Also I'm not sure why you think Trundle's role is fulltank or whatever you're implying. His focus is clearly AD out of the offensive stats, that scales well with aspd. Movespeed at the very least does have perfect synergy. 2% health drain is gonna be more than 3% healing in most situations. For example, a 2000 hp target. At level 11, you'll have max Q, lvl 3 E Rank 1 ult with lvl 2 W: Heals you 444 hp over the duration (20% of 2k = 400, then multiply by 11% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 1 W: Heals you 475 hp over the duration (22% of 2k = 440, then multiply by 8% for W) Now at lvl 16 on a 3000 hp target. At lvl 16, you have max Q and E Rank 1 ult with lvl 5 W: Heals you 720 hp over the duration (20% of 3k = 600, then multiply by 20% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 4 W: Heals you 772 hp over the duration (22% of 3k = 660, then multiply by 17%) Rank 3 ult with lvl 3 W: Heals you 820 hp over the duration (24% of 3k = 720, then multiply by 14%) As you can see, leveling ult will always heal you more than the healing increase from W. You're basically weighing increased heal and decreased cd against increased movespeed and attackspeed. Honestly, I can see the merits of W>R, as maxing W over R will give double the movespeed bonus (before diminishing returns) and four times the attack speed bonus, while maxing R will only give 20% more health and 20 seconds off cd. If you're maxing cdr, which you should be imo, maxing R only gives 12 seconds off cd. But saying the healing increase is anywhere near comparable to the healing on R is simply false. Are you assuming 0 base hp regen, 0 minions dying nearby and 0 lifesteal over 4 seconds? Not to mention you forgot magic resistance. Either way do as you like. MR will affect both equally since the healing is done based on damage dealt. Trundle never gets lifesteal unless you build Wriggles, which is a generally bad item. Zeke's can be pretty cool, but I doubt it'll ever be core on Trundle. The ulti heal has half up front, then again over 4 seconds. Base regen at 11 is 3.47 hp/second. Passive is 4% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 2 W, that's an additional 0.38 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.52 health. With lvl 1 W, that's an additional 0.28 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.11 health. This means there's still a 30.59 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 764.8 health. At 16 it's 4.32 per second. Passive is 6% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 5 W, that's an additional 0.86 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 3.46 health. With lvl 3 W, that's an additional 0.60 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 2.42 health. This means there's still a 98.96 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 1649 health. The increase in hp regen is neglible. The heal off your passive can make the difference, but you need to have anywhere between 2~5 minions dying within that 4 second window to make up the difference. While that can happen, it's not a good determining factor because of several reasons. Trundle lacks any form of aoe so you can't really intentionally nuke minions to gain hp. In fact, I'd argue that creeps dying nearby are a nonfactor. Consider that most fights are either over neutral objectives, where there are no creep, or at towers where creep waves are being instacleared by both teams. u did so many math and you intentionally or not left out the part of the math that you assume in the first line it's true. it isnt and check my previous post at last page. With 50% reduction (for ease of math) the difference from max ult to max w will also be 50% lower. that means 50hp difference instead of the 100. Based on the math you did, there is a 48.96 hp difference to be accounted, 824,5 minion hp. It really honestly doesn't matter. I'm just trying to show that the difference you get from R max and W max in terms of natural hp regen is absolutely miniscule. The only things that would make a difference so that W heal>R heal is 1. Minions dying 2. Itemizing Trundle offensively with tons of lifesteal and damage Point 1 I already explained. Point 2 is I guess valid in the sense that if you're super fed and buying BTs and Bork W max would be better. However, I'd imagine that as a jungle Trundle you'd be going Locket+Bulwark or some variation of a cdr/tank build. If you just have Zekes for lifesteal/damage, the difference is neglible on the scale of 1~5 hp over the ult duration. If you somehow afford a Bork, the difference will be much greater and may favor the max W build, but I highly doubt you'll be able to afford a Bork in a jungle build while not being completely useless the vast majority of the game unless you're stomping in which case you might as well go balls deep and go 5 BT build.
It is indeed pretty negligible difference in terms of health regen, even with 0 MR (100hp difference). Now let's look at damage.
Level 3 ult on 3000k hp = more 100 damage than level 1 ult. That is about one auto with 0 ad built at level 16, before resists.
On the other hand, you still get 30% AS from level 5w over level 3
|
On May 01 2013 06:19 Shikyo wrote:
You aren't assuming you have Q bonus on when you're using melee attacks?
Also lifesteal is after armor, you don't calculate it like that.
Oh you did the calculations assuming no armor. Then it just is obsolete.
Calculating with armor only hurts the case for W>R. More armor = less damage = less health from lifesteal = worse for W.
If i factor in the 40 damage from Q, that'll raise the difference to like 10~11 hp over the 4 seconds. Still miniscule.
On May 01 2013 06:22 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:13 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:02 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 05:32 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 05:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 04:41 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 04:26 TheYango wrote:On May 01 2013 04:03 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 04:01 sylverfyre wrote:
[quote]
Just the cooldown for leveling it is a pretty compelling reason to do the normal 6/11/16. It's also a %Max Health DRAIN, and even just a few % added onto that is pretty big. nah just that little isn't worth it to me compared to what you get for leveling his other abilities. The main thing is the armor and mr anyway and those aren't affected. 10s off the ult with little to no extra bonuses vs 3s off pillar with a higher slow %... the choice is clear Yup Lissandra icon is the best by far. 20 second CD reduction on ultimate is a big deal. I might consider leaving ranks 2 and 3 until after E is maxed, but given that W doesn't even grant Tenacity anymore, I don't see why you'd max W over getting rank 2/3 ultimate. On May 01 2013 04:07 Ketara wrote:
I dunno, I can def. see an argument for not levelling Trundle ult past 6.
All you get is 10 secs off the cd and 2% more health drain per level. The armor/mr drain remains constant.
Compare that to another level of W giving 5% movespeed, 15% aspd and 3% healing, or dropping the cooldown on his E and getting it closer to where you can use it twice in one fight, I can definitely see levelling it at 6/17/18. Given your role, the 15% ASpd isn't that consequential, 2% health drain on ulti is going to be worth more than 3% total healing, and 10 sec ult CD is probably worth more than 5% MS. 2% health drain is more than 3% total healing? Note it amplifies the ult healing as well, as well as base hp regen or lifesteal. . Also I'm not sure why you think Trundle's role is fulltank or whatever you're implying. His focus is clearly AD out of the offensive stats, that scales well with aspd. Movespeed at the very least does have perfect synergy. 2% health drain is gonna be more than 3% healing in most situations. For example, a 2000 hp target. At level 11, you'll have max Q, lvl 3 E Rank 1 ult with lvl 2 W: Heals you 444 hp over the duration (20% of 2k = 400, then multiply by 11% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 1 W: Heals you 475 hp over the duration (22% of 2k = 440, then multiply by 8% for W) Now at lvl 16 on a 3000 hp target. At lvl 16, you have max Q and E Rank 1 ult with lvl 5 W: Heals you 720 hp over the duration (20% of 3k = 600, then multiply by 20% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 4 W: Heals you 772 hp over the duration (22% of 3k = 660, then multiply by 17%) Rank 3 ult with lvl 3 W: Heals you 820 hp over the duration (24% of 3k = 720, then multiply by 14%) As you can see, leveling ult will always heal you more than the healing increase from W. You're basically weighing increased heal and decreased cd against increased movespeed and attackspeed. Honestly, I can see the merits of W>R, as maxing W over R will give double the movespeed bonus (before diminishing returns) and four times the attack speed bonus, while maxing R will only give 20% more health and 20 seconds off cd. If you're maxing cdr, which you should be imo, maxing R only gives 12 seconds off cd. But saying the healing increase is anywhere near comparable to the healing on R is simply false. Are you assuming 0 base hp regen, 0 minions dying nearby and 0 lifesteal over 4 seconds? Not to mention you forgot magic resistance. Either way do as you like. MR will affect both equally since the healing is done based on damage dealt. Trundle never gets lifesteal unless you build Wriggles, which is a generally bad item. Zeke's can be pretty cool, but I doubt it'll ever be core on Trundle. The ulti heal has half up front, then again over 4 seconds. Base regen at 11 is 3.47 hp/second. Passive is 4% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 2 W, that's an additional 0.38 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.52 health. With lvl 1 W, that's an additional 0.28 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.11 health. This means there's still a 30.59 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 764.8 health. At 16 it's 4.32 per second. Passive is 6% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 5 W, that's an additional 0.86 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 3.46 health. With lvl 3 W, that's an additional 0.60 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 2.42 health. This means there's still a 98.96 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 1649 health. The increase in hp regen is neglible. The heal off your passive can make the difference, but you need to have anywhere between 2~5 minions dying within that 4 second window to make up the difference. While that can happen, it's not a good determining factor because of several reasons. Trundle lacks any form of aoe so you can't really intentionally nuke minions to gain hp. In fact, I'd argue that creeps dying nearby are a nonfactor. Consider that most fights are either over neutral objectives, where there are no creep, or at towers where creep waves are being instacleared by both teams. u did so many math and you intentionally or not left out the part of the math that you assume in the first line it's true. it isnt and check my previous post at last page. With 50% reduction (for ease of math) the difference from max ult to max w will also be 50% lower. that means 50hp difference instead of the 100. Based on the math you did, there is a 48.96 hp difference to be accounted, 824,5 minion hp. It really honestly doesn't matter. I'm just trying to show that the difference you get from R max and W max in terms of natural hp regen is absolutely miniscule. The only things that would make a difference so that W heal>R heal is 1. Minions dying 2. Itemizing Trundle offensively with tons of lifesteal and damage Point 1 I already explained. Point 2 is I guess valid in the sense that if you're super fed and buying BTs and Bork W max would be better. However, I'd imagine that as a jungle Trundle you'd be going Locket+Bulwark or some variation of a cdr/tank build. If you just have Zekes for lifesteal/damage, the difference is neglible on the scale of 1~5 hp over the ult duration. If you somehow afford a Bork, the difference will be much greater and may favor the max W build, but I highly doubt you'll be able to afford a Bork in a jungle build while not being completely useless the vast majority of the game unless you're stomping in which case you might as well go balls deep and go 5 BT build. It is indeed pretty negligible difference in terms of health regen, even with 0 MR (100hp difference). Now let's look at damage. Level 3 ult on 3000k hp = more 100 damage than level 1 ult. That is about one auto with 0 ad built at level 16, before resists. On the other hand, you still get 30% AS from level 5w over level 3
Not arguing that R is more damage than W. W>R for damage is very clear. 80% increased attackspeed with Q steroid will do more damage than a one time 4% max hp nuke in vast majority of cases. What I am arguing is that in terms of getting tankier, R>W (in most cases).
Maxing W is more offensive oriented, while R is more defensively oriented.
|
Blitz+Kha+Malph+Lux against us. The RNG doesn't want me to enjoy ARAMs. :<
(Plus it always puts me purple side. Gimme dat viking dammit!)
|
New Quinn top, viable? Or should I practice him mid.
|
On May 01 2013 06:24 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:19 Shikyo wrote:
You aren't assuming you have Q bonus on when you're using melee attacks?
Also lifesteal is after armor, you don't calculate it like that.
Oh you did the calculations assuming no armor. Then it just is obsolete. Calculating with armor only hurts the case for W>R. More armor = less damage = less health from lifesteal = worse for W.
If i factor in the 40 damage from Q, that'll raise the difference to like 10~11 hp over the 4 seconds. Still miniscule.Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:22 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:13 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:02 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 05:32 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 05:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 04:41 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 04:26 TheYango wrote:On May 01 2013 04:03 Shikyo wrote:
[quote]
nah just that little isn't worth it to me compared to what you get for leveling his other abilities. The main thing is the armor and mr anyway and those aren't affected.
10s off the ult with little to no extra bonuses vs 3s off pillar with a higher slow %... the choice is clear
Yup Lissandra icon is the best by far. 20 second CD reduction on ultimate is a big deal. I might consider leaving ranks 2 and 3 until after E is maxed, but given that W doesn't even grant Tenacity anymore, I don't see why you'd max W over getting rank 2/3 ultimate. On May 01 2013 04:07 Ketara wrote:
I dunno, I can def. see an argument for not levelling Trundle ult past 6.
All you get is 10 secs off the cd and 2% more health drain per level. The armor/mr drain remains constant.
Compare that to another level of W giving 5% movespeed, 15% aspd and 3% healing, or dropping the cooldown on his E and getting it closer to where you can use it twice in one fight, I can definitely see levelling it at 6/17/18. Given your role, the 15% ASpd isn't that consequential, 2% health drain on ulti is going to be worth more than 3% total healing, and 10 sec ult CD is probably worth more than 5% MS. 2% health drain is more than 3% total healing? Note it amplifies the ult healing as well, as well as base hp regen or lifesteal. . Also I'm not sure why you think Trundle's role is fulltank or whatever you're implying. His focus is clearly AD out of the offensive stats, that scales well with aspd. Movespeed at the very least does have perfect synergy. 2% health drain is gonna be more than 3% healing in most situations. For example, a 2000 hp target. At level 11, you'll have max Q, lvl 3 E Rank 1 ult with lvl 2 W: Heals you 444 hp over the duration (20% of 2k = 400, then multiply by 11% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 1 W: Heals you 475 hp over the duration (22% of 2k = 440, then multiply by 8% for W) Now at lvl 16 on a 3000 hp target. At lvl 16, you have max Q and E Rank 1 ult with lvl 5 W: Heals you 720 hp over the duration (20% of 3k = 600, then multiply by 20% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 4 W: Heals you 772 hp over the duration (22% of 3k = 660, then multiply by 17%) Rank 3 ult with lvl 3 W: Heals you 820 hp over the duration (24% of 3k = 720, then multiply by 14%) As you can see, leveling ult will always heal you more than the healing increase from W. You're basically weighing increased heal and decreased cd against increased movespeed and attackspeed. Honestly, I can see the merits of W>R, as maxing W over R will give double the movespeed bonus (before diminishing returns) and four times the attack speed bonus, while maxing R will only give 20% more health and 20 seconds off cd. If you're maxing cdr, which you should be imo, maxing R only gives 12 seconds off cd. But saying the healing increase is anywhere near comparable to the healing on R is simply false. Are you assuming 0 base hp regen, 0 minions dying nearby and 0 lifesteal over 4 seconds? Not to mention you forgot magic resistance. Either way do as you like. MR will affect both equally since the healing is done based on damage dealt. Trundle never gets lifesteal unless you build Wriggles, which is a generally bad item. Zeke's can be pretty cool, but I doubt it'll ever be core on Trundle. The ulti heal has half up front, then again over 4 seconds. Base regen at 11 is 3.47 hp/second. Passive is 4% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 2 W, that's an additional 0.38 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.52 health. With lvl 1 W, that's an additional 0.28 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.11 health. This means there's still a 30.59 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 764.8 health. At 16 it's 4.32 per second. Passive is 6% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 5 W, that's an additional 0.86 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 3.46 health. With lvl 3 W, that's an additional 0.60 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 2.42 health. This means there's still a 98.96 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 1649 health. The increase in hp regen is neglible. The heal off your passive can make the difference, but you need to have anywhere between 2~5 minions dying within that 4 second window to make up the difference. While that can happen, it's not a good determining factor because of several reasons. Trundle lacks any form of aoe so you can't really intentionally nuke minions to gain hp. In fact, I'd argue that creeps dying nearby are a nonfactor. Consider that most fights are either over neutral objectives, where there are no creep, or at towers where creep waves are being instacleared by both teams. u did so many math and you intentionally or not left out the part of the math that you assume in the first line it's true. it isnt and check my previous post at last page. With 50% reduction (for ease of math) the difference from max ult to max w will also be 50% lower. that means 50hp difference instead of the 100. Based on the math you did, there is a 48.96 hp difference to be accounted, 824,5 minion hp. It really honestly doesn't matter. I'm just trying to show that the difference you get from R max and W max in terms of natural hp regen is absolutely miniscule. The only things that would make a difference so that W heal>R heal is 1. Minions dying 2. Itemizing Trundle offensively with tons of lifesteal and damage Point 1 I already explained. Point 2 is I guess valid in the sense that if you're super fed and buying BTs and Bork W max would be better. However, I'd imagine that as a jungle Trundle you'd be going Locket+Bulwark or some variation of a cdr/tank build. If you just have Zekes for lifesteal/damage, the difference is neglible on the scale of 1~5 hp over the ult duration. If you somehow afford a Bork, the difference will be much greater and may favor the max W build, but I highly doubt you'll be able to afford a Bork in a jungle build while not being completely useless the vast majority of the game unless you're stomping in which case you might as well go balls deep and go 5 BT build. It is indeed pretty negligible difference in terms of health regen, even with 0 MR (100hp difference). Now let's look at damage. Level 3 ult on 3000k hp = more 100 damage than level 1 ult. That is about one auto with 0 ad built at level 16, before resists. On the other hand, you still get 30% AS from level 5w over level 3 Not arguing that W is more damage than R. That's very clear. 80% increased attackspeed with Q steroid will do more damage than a one time 4% max hp nuke in vast majority of cases. What I am arguing is that in terms of getting tankier, R>W (in most cases). Maxing W is more offensive oriented, while R is more defensively oriented.
So does calculating with MR for R -.-' like i showed before. You are ulting tanks for your MR/Armor steal so they do probably have 50% MR by level 16. 50 health once in a fight more tankier? I dont even need to bring up the fact that champions die during a fight to prove that the more hp from R is a false argument in its favor.
|
What are people building on Lissandra so far?
I've been going ROA>Zhonya>Fiendish Codex>Deathcap>Void Staff at this point, only played 4 games so far.
Anybody figure anything better out yet?
Edit: Also, she's so op
|
On May 01 2013 06:32 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 06:19 Shikyo wrote:
You aren't assuming you have Q bonus on when you're using melee attacks?
Also lifesteal is after armor, you don't calculate it like that.
Oh you did the calculations assuming no armor. Then it just is obsolete. Calculating with armor only hurts the case for W>R. More armor = less damage = less health from lifesteal = worse for W.
If i factor in the 40 damage from Q, that'll raise the difference to like 10~11 hp over the 4 seconds. Still miniscule.On May 01 2013 06:22 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:13 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:02 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 05:32 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 05:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 04:41 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 04:26 TheYango wrote:
[quote]
20 second CD reduction on ultimate is a big deal. I might consider leaving ranks 2 and 3 until after E is maxed, but given that W doesn't even grant Tenacity anymore, I don't see why you'd max W over getting rank 2/3 ultimate.
[quote]
Given your role, the 15% ASpd isn't that consequential, 2% health drain on ulti is going to be worth more than 3% total healing, and 10 sec ult CD is probably worth more than 5% MS. 2% health drain is more than 3% total healing? Note it amplifies the ult healing as well, as well as base hp regen or lifesteal. . Also I'm not sure why you think Trundle's role is fulltank or whatever you're implying. His focus is clearly AD out of the offensive stats, that scales well with aspd. Movespeed at the very least does have perfect synergy. 2% health drain is gonna be more than 3% healing in most situations. For example, a 2000 hp target. At level 11, you'll have max Q, lvl 3 E Rank 1 ult with lvl 2 W: Heals you 444 hp over the duration (20% of 2k = 400, then multiply by 11% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 1 W: Heals you 475 hp over the duration (22% of 2k = 440, then multiply by 8% for W) Now at lvl 16 on a 3000 hp target. At lvl 16, you have max Q and E Rank 1 ult with lvl 5 W: Heals you 720 hp over the duration (20% of 3k = 600, then multiply by 20% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 4 W: Heals you 772 hp over the duration (22% of 3k = 660, then multiply by 17%) Rank 3 ult with lvl 3 W: Heals you 820 hp over the duration (24% of 3k = 720, then multiply by 14%) As you can see, leveling ult will always heal you more than the healing increase from W. You're basically weighing increased heal and decreased cd against increased movespeed and attackspeed. Honestly, I can see the merits of W>R, as maxing W over R will give double the movespeed bonus (before diminishing returns) and four times the attack speed bonus, while maxing R will only give 20% more health and 20 seconds off cd. If you're maxing cdr, which you should be imo, maxing R only gives 12 seconds off cd. But saying the healing increase is anywhere near comparable to the healing on R is simply false. Are you assuming 0 base hp regen, 0 minions dying nearby and 0 lifesteal over 4 seconds? Not to mention you forgot magic resistance. Either way do as you like. MR will affect both equally since the healing is done based on damage dealt. Trundle never gets lifesteal unless you build Wriggles, which is a generally bad item. Zeke's can be pretty cool, but I doubt it'll ever be core on Trundle. The ulti heal has half up front, then again over 4 seconds. Base regen at 11 is 3.47 hp/second. Passive is 4% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 2 W, that's an additional 0.38 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.52 health. With lvl 1 W, that's an additional 0.28 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.11 health. This means there's still a 30.59 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 764.8 health. At 16 it's 4.32 per second. Passive is 6% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 5 W, that's an additional 0.86 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 3.46 health. With lvl 3 W, that's an additional 0.60 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 2.42 health. This means there's still a 98.96 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 1649 health. The increase in hp regen is neglible. The heal off your passive can make the difference, but you need to have anywhere between 2~5 minions dying within that 4 second window to make up the difference. While that can happen, it's not a good determining factor because of several reasons. Trundle lacks any form of aoe so you can't really intentionally nuke minions to gain hp. In fact, I'd argue that creeps dying nearby are a nonfactor. Consider that most fights are either over neutral objectives, where there are no creep, or at towers where creep waves are being instacleared by both teams. u did so many math and you intentionally or not left out the part of the math that you assume in the first line it's true. it isnt and check my previous post at last page. With 50% reduction (for ease of math) the difference from max ult to max w will also be 50% lower. that means 50hp difference instead of the 100. Based on the math you did, there is a 48.96 hp difference to be accounted, 824,5 minion hp. It really honestly doesn't matter. I'm just trying to show that the difference you get from R max and W max in terms of natural hp regen is absolutely miniscule. The only things that would make a difference so that W heal>R heal is 1. Minions dying 2. Itemizing Trundle offensively with tons of lifesteal and damage Point 1 I already explained. Point 2 is I guess valid in the sense that if you're super fed and buying BTs and Bork W max would be better. However, I'd imagine that as a jungle Trundle you'd be going Locket+Bulwark or some variation of a cdr/tank build. If you just have Zekes for lifesteal/damage, the difference is neglible on the scale of 1~5 hp over the ult duration. If you somehow afford a Bork, the difference will be much greater and may favor the max W build, but I highly doubt you'll be able to afford a Bork in a jungle build while not being completely useless the vast majority of the game unless you're stomping in which case you might as well go balls deep and go 5 BT build. It is indeed pretty negligible difference in terms of health regen, even with 0 MR (100hp difference). Now let's look at damage. Level 3 ult on 3000k hp = more 100 damage than level 1 ult. That is about one auto with 0 ad built at level 16, before resists. On the other hand, you still get 30% AS from level 5w over level 3 Not arguing that W is more damage than R. That's very clear. 80% increased attackspeed with Q steroid will do more damage than a one time 4% max hp nuke in vast majority of cases. What I am arguing is that in terms of getting tankier, R>W (in most cases). Maxing W is more offensive oriented, while R is more defensively oriented. So does calculating with MR for R -.-' like i showed before. You are ulting tanks for your MR/Armor steal so they do probably have 50% MR by level 16.
If you're going to intercede, you should probably read the stuff I'm responding to.
Shikyo brought up armor. I'm explaining why his point is irrelevant. The best case scenarios for Shikyo's case, which is W>R for healing, is when there is no armor.
50 health once in a fight more tankier? I dont even need to bring up the fact that champions die during a fight to prove that the more hp from R is a false argument in its favor.
Sure, once champions start dying W will give you more health than R. But you have to wait until champions die for that to matter. Having more health at the start or near the start of the fight is much more useful in terms of being tanky than having health at the end of the fight. It also doesn't matter if your passive+W can heal you for a million health if you're not alive to see that happen.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 01 2013 06:10 misirlou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Yeah of all people trundle is a big guy you want supporty items on because trundles mostly a utility tank who should focus on E spam and using his ult, he has decent damage but not enough burst or upfront tankyness to be a real dive threat anyways agreed, but I can see the place for a BotRK or BT on his tank build since he has so much AS built in
Cleaver is the most appropriate one-off offensive item for him. It's an alternative CDR source to supplement other CDR itemization, it stacks armor pen/% armor reduction with his ultimate, and provides primarily AD to supplement his AS.
Also, this lifesteal discussion on Trundle is pretty damn pointless because you're not going to be buying lifesteal at the point in the game where W vs R ranks matters. Trundle's point where he itemizes damage is a one-off cost-effective 6th damage item (or possibly a Zeke's at 5th item)--before that you're buying primarily defensive/supportive team items.
|
On May 01 2013 06:37 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:32 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:24 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 06:19 Shikyo wrote:
You aren't assuming you have Q bonus on when you're using melee attacks?
Also lifesteal is after armor, you don't calculate it like that.
Oh you did the calculations assuming no armor. Then it just is obsolete. Calculating with armor only hurts the case for W>R. More armor = less damage = less health from lifesteal = worse for W.
If i factor in the 40 damage from Q, that'll raise the difference to like 10~11 hp over the 4 seconds. Still miniscule.On May 01 2013 06:22 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:13 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:02 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 05:32 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 05:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 01 2013 04:41 Shikyo wrote:
[quote]
2% health drain is more than 3% total healing? Note it amplifies the ult healing as well, as well as base hp regen or lifesteal. .
Also I'm not sure why you think Trundle's role is fulltank or whatever you're implying. His focus is clearly AD out of the offensive stats, that scales well with aspd. Movespeed at the very least does have perfect synergy. 2% health drain is gonna be more than 3% healing in most situations. For example, a 2000 hp target. At level 11, you'll have max Q, lvl 3 E Rank 1 ult with lvl 2 W: Heals you 444 hp over the duration (20% of 2k = 400, then multiply by 11% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 1 W: Heals you 475 hp over the duration (22% of 2k = 440, then multiply by 8% for W) Now at lvl 16 on a 3000 hp target. At lvl 16, you have max Q and E Rank 1 ult with lvl 5 W: Heals you 720 hp over the duration (20% of 3k = 600, then multiply by 20% for W) Rank 2 ult with lvl 4 W: Heals you 772 hp over the duration (22% of 3k = 660, then multiply by 17%) Rank 3 ult with lvl 3 W: Heals you 820 hp over the duration (24% of 3k = 720, then multiply by 14%) As you can see, leveling ult will always heal you more than the healing increase from W. You're basically weighing increased heal and decreased cd against increased movespeed and attackspeed. Honestly, I can see the merits of W>R, as maxing W over R will give double the movespeed bonus (before diminishing returns) and four times the attack speed bonus, while maxing R will only give 20% more health and 20 seconds off cd. If you're maxing cdr, which you should be imo, maxing R only gives 12 seconds off cd. But saying the healing increase is anywhere near comparable to the healing on R is simply false. Are you assuming 0 base hp regen, 0 minions dying nearby and 0 lifesteal over 4 seconds? Not to mention you forgot magic resistance. Either way do as you like. MR will affect both equally since the healing is done based on damage dealt. Trundle never gets lifesteal unless you build Wriggles, which is a generally bad item. Zeke's can be pretty cool, but I doubt it'll ever be core on Trundle. The ulti heal has half up front, then again over 4 seconds. Base regen at 11 is 3.47 hp/second. Passive is 4% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 2 W, that's an additional 0.38 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.52 health. With lvl 1 W, that's an additional 0.28 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 1.11 health. This means there's still a 30.59 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 764.8 health. At 16 it's 4.32 per second. Passive is 6% max health of stuff dying. With lvl 5 W, that's an additional 0.86 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 3.46 health. With lvl 3 W, that's an additional 0.60 hp/second. Over 4 seconds, that's an extra 2.42 health. This means there's still a 98.96 health difference that needs to be accounted for. This means there needs to be enough minions with a combined health of at least 1649 health. The increase in hp regen is neglible. The heal off your passive can make the difference, but you need to have anywhere between 2~5 minions dying within that 4 second window to make up the difference. While that can happen, it's not a good determining factor because of several reasons. Trundle lacks any form of aoe so you can't really intentionally nuke minions to gain hp. In fact, I'd argue that creeps dying nearby are a nonfactor. Consider that most fights are either over neutral objectives, where there are no creep, or at towers where creep waves are being instacleared by both teams. u did so many math and you intentionally or not left out the part of the math that you assume in the first line it's true. it isnt and check my previous post at last page. With 50% reduction (for ease of math) the difference from max ult to max w will also be 50% lower. that means 50hp difference instead of the 100. Based on the math you did, there is a 48.96 hp difference to be accounted, 824,5 minion hp. It really honestly doesn't matter. I'm just trying to show that the difference you get from R max and W max in terms of natural hp regen is absolutely miniscule. The only things that would make a difference so that W heal>R heal is 1. Minions dying 2. Itemizing Trundle offensively with tons of lifesteal and damage Point 1 I already explained. Point 2 is I guess valid in the sense that if you're super fed and buying BTs and Bork W max would be better. However, I'd imagine that as a jungle Trundle you'd be going Locket+Bulwark or some variation of a cdr/tank build. If you just have Zekes for lifesteal/damage, the difference is neglible on the scale of 1~5 hp over the ult duration. If you somehow afford a Bork, the difference will be much greater and may favor the max W build, but I highly doubt you'll be able to afford a Bork in a jungle build while not being completely useless the vast majority of the game unless you're stomping in which case you might as well go balls deep and go 5 BT build. It is indeed pretty negligible difference in terms of health regen, even with 0 MR (100hp difference). Now let's look at damage. Level 3 ult on 3000k hp = more 100 damage than level 1 ult. That is about one auto with 0 ad built at level 16, before resists. On the other hand, you still get 30% AS from level 5w over level 3 Not arguing that W is more damage than R. That's very clear. 80% increased attackspeed with Q steroid will do more damage than a one time 4% max hp nuke in vast majority of cases. What I am arguing is that in terms of getting tankier, R>W (in most cases). Maxing W is more offensive oriented, while R is more defensively oriented. So does calculating with MR for R -.-' like i showed before. You are ulting tanks for your MR/Armor steal so they do probably have 50% MR by level 16. If you're going to intercede, you should probably read the stuff I'm responding to. Shikyo brought up armor. I'm explaining why his point is irrelevant. The best case scenarios for Shikyo's case, which is W>R for healing, is when there is no armor. Show nested quote +50 health once in a fight more tankier? I dont even need to bring up the fact that champions die during a fight to prove that the more hp from R is a false argument in its favor. Sure, once champions start dying W will give you more health than R. But you have to wait until champions die for that to matter. Having more health at the start or near the start of the fight is much more useful in terms of being tanky than having health at the end of the fight. It also doesn't matter if your passive+W can heal you for a million health if you're not alive to see that happen.
the ult will heal you after the fight has started, not before (unlike w which you can use to go heal up in the jungle/wave).
If you're dying because of the 50 health the ult gave you before an enemy dies in the TF, well you were probably dead with max R anw. after the first enemy dies, max w is stronger than R.
|
On May 01 2013 06:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:10 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Yeah of all people trundle is a big guy you want supporty items on because trundles mostly a utility tank who should focus on E spam and using his ult, he has decent damage but not enough burst or upfront tankyness to be a real dive threat anyways agreed, but I can see the place for a BotRK or BT on his tank build since he has so much AS built in Cleaver is the most appropriate one-off offensive item for him. It's an alternative CDR source to supplement other CDR itemization, it stacks armor pen/% armor reduction with his ultimate, and provides primarily AD to supplement his AS. Also, this lifesteal discussion on Trundle is pretty damn pointless because you're not going to be buying lifesteal at the point in the game where W vs R ranks matters. Trundle's point where he itemizes damage is a one-off cost-effective 6th damage item (or possibly a Zeke's at 5th item)--before that you're buying primarily defensive/supportive team items.
Yep, BC is good, I like BotRK because of the passive (which scales with AS and not ad) and the active is also very good (even without w) because of the slow.
I dont argue that you should be buying Lifesteal to make Max W effective. Im arguing that Max W nets you the same health as max R + AS + MS. Only thing you're missing is 20/12 secs off the R cd
|
I think BotRK would be better for him than Cleaver for a single offensive item.
Realistically is he going to be beating on his ult target in a teamfight? Isn't he going to be ulting the enemy tank/bruiser/etc and then chase after the carry? He doesn't have any ability to quickly AoE apply BC stacks.
BotRK will give him a ton of damage in conjunction with his AS steroid and autoattack resets from all the passive procs, and the active synergizes with his ult.
All BC is really giving him is the CDR. Realistically, getting 40% CDR from jungle items ain't hard.
|
United States47024 Posts
You're comparing the entirety of a W rank with only one aspect of the ult rank (just the increased health steal).
The CDR does matter, and can result in a second ult cast in some scenarios.
|
On May 01 2013 06:21 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:14 Shikyo wrote:On May 01 2013 05:55 LaM wrote:On May 01 2013 05:53 Chrispy wrote:
azn zagenite or something like that? Nah that was the guy who played Kennen and Teemo right? Fk. I'm gonna google around a bit, although I have no idea what to search. Azen Zagenite was like the best SSBM player in the world <.< On May 01 2013 06:10 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Yeah of all people trundle is a big guy you want supporty items on because trundles mostly a utility tank who should focus on E spam and using his ult, he has decent damage but not enough burst or upfront tankyness to be a real dive threat anyways agreed, but I can see the place for a BotRK or BT on his tank build since he has so much AS built in IMO iceborn gauntlet is core on Trundle. Also I've currently lost all games with Trundle. win lane lose game. get kited worse than nasus You really feel the lack of tenacity. Even though his Q was buffed I guess this is the last game with him. Overall a huge nerf due to no tenacity I'd say. that has absolutely nothing to do with iceborn gauntlet it doesnt stop a melee being kited because cc and range exist you're probably playing trundle wrong I was doing great with trnudle anytime i got into midgame okay just by playing pillar spam with locket/bulwark (maybe elder lizard if im fed for damage on assassins and shit) you just spam pillar so your team can land any skillshots and randomly you can catch people out if you don't have good poke and it forces people to engage on you at some point and thats when you ult their tanks and start doing some damage (and you're still enough of a threat to kill an AD or AP if they ignore you and second pillar should come up in time to let your team finish them off, if they don't ignore you you have your ult boosting your resists and hp) judging from my previous experience playing with you, you are an extremely selfish player who tends to win lane and farm well but do dumb shit and never play with the team so I suggest working with them more it'll be good practice
Yeah it has nothing to do with iceborn gauntlet ;S I never said it does. I just think it's core on trundle. Solo top, that is. The other item would be a frozen mallet but imo he doesn't synergize with max hp that well and loves cdr. Of course aura items if the jungler isn't building them. I don't play jungle so no idea there.
One game I was chasing vs kayle / zilean / ashe and even though we had iceborn gauntlet ezreal we couldn't do much. I remember I was chasing them for like 60% of the summoner's rift and all we got out of that was zilean and kayle ults.
On May 01 2013 06:51 TheYango wrote:
You're comparing the entirety of a W rank with only one aspect of the ult rank (just the increased health steal).
The CDR does matter, and can result in a second ult cast in some scenarios.
Btw as I was crushing this one Renekton solo top I noticed that as he was back in lane after losing to me in ult vs ult duel, my ult already was back up when we both were at the lane again. So... I'm still not quite sold. Especially if you get some early CDR. Again jungle is different, no clue.
I sort of feel like trying a tanky AP Trundle with lich bane and liandrys. Then again I guess I could just pick Mordekaiser instead who has a better ult.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 01 2013 06:50 Ketara wrote:
Realistically is he going to be beating on his ult target in a teamfight? Isn't he going to be ulting the enemy tank/bruiser/etc and then chase after the carry? He doesn't have any ability to quickly AoE apply BC stacks.
Without W granting Tenacity anymore, this is not really what you're going to do. You can pretty much only expect to fight it out with the enemy front-line because realistically your engagement ability is too poor to actually reach the enemy carry and stay on them long enough to do significant damage.
So yes, a lot of the time you are just fighting it out with your ult target.
|
Trundle's ult is to be treated like Mundo's ult when you jungle. It has low CD so it's as much of a defensive/escape tool as an offensive one.
|
On May 01 2013 06:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2013 06:10 misirlou wrote:On May 01 2013 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:
Yeah of all people trundle is a big guy you want supporty items on because trundles mostly a utility tank who should focus on E spam and using his ult, he has decent damage but not enough burst or upfront tankyness to be a real dive threat anyways agreed, but I can see the place for a BotRK or BT on his tank build since he has so much AS built in Cleaver is the most appropriate one-off offensive item for him. It's an alternative CDR source to supplement other CDR itemization, it stacks armor pen/% armor reduction with his ultimate, and provides primarily AD to supplement his AS. Also, this lifesteal discussion on Trundle is pretty damn pointless because you're not going to be buying lifesteal at the point in the game where W vs R ranks matters. Trundle's point where he itemizes damage is a one-off cost-effective 6th damage item (or possibly a Zeke's at 5th item)--before that you're buying primarily defensive/supportive team items.
I think elder lizard is the easiest thing to get in practice. It builds out of spirit stone, is fairly cheap so you can transition into locket and mercs pretty easily as well. You can cash in on the benefits of faster clearing faster dragons and stronger ganking to pay back some of the gold as well, and you typically get it when you're doing well so you don't have to be stuck on no defensive items during the early teamfight phase.
I think BC is good if you're sticking to the anti-tank role but I think trinity definitely has its place if you need to be more active. (the situation you want either especially if you already have lizard implies you are pretty fed and probably have locket/aegis already, maybe a warmogs too so you're pretty tanky and you have a lot of team gold so you want to be a big threat)
Zekes is a good idea to finish maxing your cdr, but you might be able to just mostly cover the difference in runes and masteries with locket/elder lizard or maybe locket/spirit of the ancient golem. Zekes is good with some comps but I think its only good if can you definitely rely on your AD. I kinda want warmogs or randuins instead to take some of the heat off the backline by being way tankier the opposing tanks, and trundle benefits from cdr in clearing so it might make sense to quint/blue cdr maybe speccing into utility or offensive for even more. (defensive tree benefits might be too good though, not sure)
|
Besides, you shred 40% of your ult target's armor/mr. That's fucking huge. Whoever you ult will essentially become a squishy by the end of the duration of your ult.
|
It was stronger before. TBH trundle was probably nerfed overall or at least only equally as strong as he was. (but that -0.5 second duration on pillar hurts)
edit: oh the ult is 24% of max hp, not 12%, so it is a bit stronger than it was so its still a buff to supporty style trundle but I have no idea why they'd nerf the more fun aspect of bruisering around the place and buff the slightly more 1-dimensional playstyle of spamming E and Ring the nearest target and focusing him.
|
On May 01 2013 06:30 Mondeezy wrote:
New Quinn top, viable? Or should I practice him mid.
Since everyone ignored you, I think it can work. You get destroyed by a good Renekton/Irelia/Elise tho. She's probably a lot safer mid but can do alright top now I think,
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
