|
United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2013 04:06 NeoIllusions wrote:
Ease up on the hyperbole talk plz. I'm with bly here 100%. Cait isn't OP; if Darius gets nerf, it's going to be incredibly disappointing (I think ulti reset nerf is only acceptable part); and AP Trynd definitely needed tweaking.
If you think a champion is strong, we're glad to hear your point of view and discuss the merits and fallacies of your opinion. But please don't preface your post with "x is overpowered because..."
The problem that Bly brings up (the community acceptability of balance whining) is in part because of how Riot's more or less conditioned the playerbase to accept balance changes on a frequent basis. BW balance patches were very few and far between. As such the community more or less came to accept the idea of "don't whine about balance" because the timescale between balance patches far exceeded a reasonable timescale for you to really care. You could get better in a much shorter timespan than it took for Blizzard to actually change the game. On the flip side, Riot's frequency of changes means that when something is out of whack, people EXPECT it to be changed.
There is of course the argument that the whiny players stopped whining in BW because they got frustrated and quit the game and that Riot would rather retain whiny players and have them keep spending money on the game even though some of us don't like them.
|
On February 26 2013 05:17 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what i'm reading is darius does too much damage too quickly and we should have him do less damage over a longer period, aka nerf him because hes OP.
Not having him ramp up to his ult so fast allows them to shift some of that burst dps to his other skills to improve his sustained dps.
|
I'm actually not so sure if Darius is so OP anymore. I complain about him a lot but he has flaws and if he is balanced now, and the nerfs hit he'll be useless.
|
Part of the problem is also the growth of the internet. You didn't complain or ask demand nerfs/buffs because it was meaningless to do so, there was no way developers would see it.
Now developers are expected to have communications with the community, so everyone suddenly wants to get their voice heard because we all believe we have the best ideas for what makes the game fun for ourselves.
|
On February 26 2013 05:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 04:06 NeoIllusions wrote:
Ease up on the hyperbole talk plz. I'm with bly here 100%. Cait isn't OP; if Darius gets nerf, it's going to be incredibly disappointing (I think ulti reset nerf is only acceptable part); and AP Trynd definitely needed tweaking.
If you think a champion is strong, we're glad to hear your point of view and discuss the merits and fallacies of your opinion. But please don't preface your post with "x is overpowered because..." The problem that Bly brings up (the community acceptability of balance whining) is in part because of how Riot's more or less conditioned the playerbase to accept balance changes on a frequent basis. BW balance patches were very few and far between. As such the community more or less came to accept the idea of "don't whine about balance" because the timescale between balance patches far exceeded a reasonable timescale for you to really care. You could get better in a much shorter timespan than it took for Blizzard to actually change the game. On the flip side, Riot's frequency of changes means that when something is out of whack, people EXPECT it to be changed. There is of course the argument that the whiny players stopped whining in BW because they got frustrated and quit the game and that Riot would rather retain whiny players and have them keep spending money on the game even though some of us don't like them.
Whoa whoa whoa, careful what you wish for. Imagine being a top WoW arena player. Some dragonslaying nerd cries about a 3% damage shortage, and sweeping changes hit the only champ you can play for 6+ months. Unless you want to reroll (start new account), or not play with friends anymore.
|
On February 26 2013 05:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 04:06 NeoIllusions wrote:
Ease up on the hyperbole talk plz. I'm with bly here 100%. Cait isn't OP; if Darius gets nerf, it's going to be incredibly disappointing (I think ulti reset nerf is only acceptable part); and AP Trynd definitely needed tweaking.
If you think a champion is strong, we're glad to hear your point of view and discuss the merits and fallacies of your opinion. But please don't preface your post with "x is overpowered because..." The problem that Bly brings up (the community acceptability of balance whining) is in part because of how Riot's more or less conditioned the playerbase to accept balance changes on a frequent basis. BW balance patches were very few and far between. As such the community more or less came to accept the idea of "don't whine about balance" because the timescale between balance patches far exceeded a reasonable timescale for you to really care. You could get better in a much shorter timespan than it took for Blizzard to actually change the game. On the flip side, Riot's frequency of changes means that when something is out of whack, people EXPECT it to be changed. There is of course the argument that the whiny players stopped whining in BW because they got frustrated and quit the game and that Riot would rather retain whiny players and have them keep spending money on the game even though some of us don't like them.
It's unfortunately breeded a community of people who cry for changes instead of forcing people to adapt.
"Necessity is the mother of all invention." - Some important dude
People in this game don't find it necessary to adapt their play because they have been able to force the game to change through their voices. It's rather unfortunate, really. The generation that has been brought up in the "there are no losers, everyone gets an award!" time has their behavior and mindsets perpetuated by company practices like that.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2013 05:27 Crownlol wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa, careful what you wish for. Imagine being a top WoW arena player. Some dragonslaying nerd cries about a 3% damage shortage, and sweeping changes hit the only champ you can play for 6+ months. Unless you want to reroll (start new account), or not play with friends anymore.
This is different from your race in BW potentially getting fucked by a balance patch how?
You can bite the bullet and get better. Unless something is hotfix-level out of whack, or the game's design fundamentally fails to reward skill properly, you're going to still be able to just play better until a very high level.
Plus that case is 100% irrelevant to a MOBA game where nobody at that level of play should have a singular attachment to 1 hero.
|
On February 26 2013 05:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:27 Crownlol wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa, careful what you wish for. Imagine being a top WoW arena player. Some dragonslaying nerd cries about a 3% damage shortage, and sweeping changes hit the only champ you can play for 6+ months. Unless you want to reroll (start new account), or not play with friends anymore.
This is different from your race in BW potentially getting fucked by a balance patch how? You can bite the bullet and get better. Unless something is hotfix-level out of whack, or the game's design fundamentally fails to reward skill properly, you're going to still be able to just play better until a very high level. Plus that case is 100% irrelevant to a MOBA game where nobody at that level of play should have a singular attachment to 1 hero.
It's more analogous to your BW race getting fucked over by a singleplayer campaign patch.
I hear you on the constant balance whine aspect, but I'd much prefer a game to have constant tweaks that to wait months for something broken to be fixed.
|
Idle wondering: Would it really be bad if Hunter's Machete worked on lane creeps? I could see weak laning AD carries starting with it to open up last hitting windows and also allow them to start with potions.
|
United States47024 Posts
See, the other thing is that I think people have too little faith in Riot and are worrying too much about the possibility of something being so fundamentally broken as to be degenerate/be difficult to find effective counterplay for being left in the game. The game as it stands is pretty balanced. The likelihood of that happening is quite low, and Riot still reserves the right to hotfix those things.
On February 26 2013 05:36 sylverfyre wrote:
Idle wondering: Would it really be bad if Hunter's Machete worked on lane creeps? I could see weak laning AD carries starting with it to open up last hitting windows and also allow them to start with potions.
Machete working on creeps would significantly change itemization because it would allow heroes to waveclear with a DRASTICALLY decreased investment into AP/AD on their nukes.
|
United States47024 Posts
|
On February 26 2013 05:36 TheYango wrote:See, the other thing is that I think people have too little faith in Riot and are worrying too much about the possibility of something being so fundamentally broken as to be degenerate/be difficult to find effective counterplay for being left in the game. The game as it stands is pretty balanced. The likelihood of that happening is quite low, and Riot still reserves the right to hotfix those things. Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:36 sylverfyre wrote:
Idle wondering: Would it really be bad if Hunter's Machete worked on lane creeps? I could see weak laning AD carries starting with it to open up last hitting windows and also allow them to start with potions. Machete working on creeps would significantly change itemization because it would allow heroes to waveclear with a DRASTICALLY decreased investment into AP/AD on their nukes.
Hm, true. Wasn't considering just how much 10% bonus damage to creeps would amount to on (for example) AP mids who want to get to the point where they can instaclear the wave and roam.
Madred's Razors "Maim" passive (chance of 300 bonus damage) works on lane minions too though - what if the 10 true damage ("Rend") worked on lane minions, but not the %increase in all damage? ("Butcher")
At this point it's the same bonus damage to creeps as a doran's, but lets you start pots in exchange for having shit all damage to champions early.
|
All this talk of BW patches suggests most of you guys don't actually know much about BW, since there were basically no balance patches. The only balance patch released after the start of the BW progaming scene was 1.08, and even that was super early on. Only something like 5 OSLs were played pre-1.08, so any comparisons to BW with regards to balance patches are pretty much completely misplaced.
|
On February 26 2013 05:36 TheYango wrote:See, the other thing is that I think people have too little faith in Riot and are worrying too much about the possibility of something being so fundamentally broken as to be degenerate/be difficult to find effective counterplay for being left in the game. The game as it stands is pretty balanced. The likelihood of that happening is quite low, and Riot still reserves the right to hotfix those things. Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:36 sylverfyre wrote:
Idle wondering: Would it really be bad if Hunter's Machete worked on lane creeps? I could see weak laning AD carries starting with it to open up last hitting windows and also allow them to start with potions. Machete working on creeps would significantly change itemization because it would allow heroes to waveclear with a DRASTICALLY decreased investment into AP/AD on their nukes.
I think that goes down the line of "how good can you make spectral wraith to encourage AP junglers and not have it be abused by mids to take wraiths all day."
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2013 05:41 fasdaf wrote:
All this talk of BW patches suggests most of you guys don't actually know much about BW, since there were basically no balance patches. The only balance patch released after the start of the BW progaming scene was 1.08, and even that was super early on. Only something like 5 OSLs were played pre-1.08, so any comparisons to BW with regards to balance patches are pretty much completely misplaced.
No, the discussion precisely has to do withe pre-1.08 BW and how Blizzard was still fairly conservative with their patch schedule. Patches 1.02 to 1.08 were chronologically fairly spread out, despite some pretty obvious balance issues being in the game.
I'm not talking with any relevancy to competitive play. I'm solely discussing the developer's paradigm of "how urgent is it to fix balance problems".
|
By the time mid has enough money to buy a spirit of wraith, they can already clear wraiths anyway, though.
At this point, I'm willing to throw the idea out as a bad one though, I clearly didn't think it through enough.
|
On February 26 2013 05:17 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what i'm reading is darius does too much damage too quickly and we should have him do less damage over a longer period, aka nerf him because hes OP.
*Possibly more, but on a longer period so he has ramp-up time before he gets his wtfpwn burst. As is, it doesn't really matter if he builds tanky or damage because he doesn't need long fights anyway: he gets his combo, boom you drop. Or not, but you have to recall.
You don't build tanky for your laning as Darius, but for your teamfights, where it's closer to how Riot envisioned him: you don't want to fight him because he'll put stacks on you then ult you, but because he's tanky he makes it harder for you to kite him as just being in Q range is a threat: he'll put stacks on you over time, then kill you once he gets to reach you. Doesn't matter when.
|
On February 26 2013 05:43 sylverfyre wrote:
By the time mid has enough money to buy a spirit of wraith, they can already clear wraiths anyway, though.
At this point, I'm willing to throw the idea out as a bad one though, I clearly didn't think it through enough.
Eh, the AA damage isn't bad, just the flat bonus. One reason I enjoy sometimes playing AD mids is the ease of farming throughout the game without wasting mana, and how much faster you can kill a turret.
|
I partially agree with you guys that Riot should be a little less frequent with balance patches as it doesn't give players a chance to adapt and try new things, and it implies the method of "riot pls nerf x champ I lost like 2 games to them idk what to do but it's op".
However, what if something like AP Trynd comes along and everyone jumps on the freelo bandwagon? Does Riot contradict their newly acquired ideology of less frequent patches/letting players figure out how to deal with it, or do they let it slide for a while and piss the players off?
Idk if anyone played WoW during WotlK, but death knight/pally 2v2 literally made me stop playing arena because it was super obnoxious, popular, and just miserable to play against.
|
DKs singlehandledly threw all my care quotient about arenas out the window.
And I played for years, moderately competitively, in Ragnarok Online GVG for a long time, which has pretty awful balance and literally never made balance changes. I can tolerate bad balance, but some things are just so unfun it's not funny. (AP trynd is one of these.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
