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On February 26 2013 03:00 Alaric wrote:
So I wanted to play some Talon and figured Diana was as good a lane as another, her being melee for easy WautoQ action early on.
I got destroyed because every time I hit her meant that she could 100% land a Q on me, and her shield would negate most of my damage, while being popped systematically as she'd just need to add a E on top of it to make sure I'd stay in range long enough. Coincidentally it also allowed her to get a passive-powered aa at the same time, adding even more on her damage.
The silence from Cutthroat doesn't last long enough that I can combo her before she gets to use her shield, making 100-0ing her impossible, and I'd lose most trades. My best best would be to all-in her, disengage, and then have her leave lane because she'd be in range for an EWautoQ kill (I'd be killable too, but E is click'n'point while her Q is a skillshot).
The cooldowns also heavily favored her, with Q being so cheap and spammable compared to Rake. Her 10s cd shield would coincide with Rake's cd whenever she had blue buff to negate my harass too for basically 0 mana, and post-6 her ult is much better of a gapcloser than my E, on a shorter cd too.
Starting long sword+2 pots against her flask+3 pots start was certainly an error (and her shield makes the sustain so much stronger, while I had no mana regen myself) but was it me misplaying or the match-up being heavily Diana-favored?
Her W is problematic since it will likely proc again if you are Talon, and it will damage you from the orbs too since you are melee. I'd suggest that your best bet would be to try to outtrade her with your rake while dodging her Q but staying out of the range of E. But if she lands a Q she can jump you post-6 so its a good skill match-up.
I think harass with Rake and avoid getting close until she is low enough that your all-in combo is enough to finish her off before she gets off her shield proc.
Edit: My reasoning being that Diana is one of the best sustained fighters since her Q cooldown is short and allows multiple ults, her W procs again giving her shield and her passive will proc while she E's you to keep you close. You don't want sustained fights with her at all, you want small harass with huge burst.
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I feel like Cait is just a little overpowered at this point in time. She's not too mobile, but having essentially free crits and ridiculous range is pretty annoying. She lacks the raw DPS or burst of some other carries, but the ability to pewpewpew from a mile away can't be underestimated.
Plus, she has basically 2 CC's-- her net and her traps. Dropping traps well pretty much negates a diver.
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how does any of what you said make her overpowered wtf. We should learn to stop throwing around the word "overpowered" whenever a champion rapes you in a normal game. Koreans are still banning and picking EVE in OGN when she has fallen out of favor in both NA and EU 2-3 patches ago.
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Caits damage is low compared to other ADC's, especially late game.
She's just supersafe.
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I wouldn't say overpowered, I'd just say "really strong". It's mostly her range, and I don't think it needs fixing really. She's interesting in that her abilities kind of CC her and aren't part of her damage kit- she rewards strong positioning very well, and I"m cool with that.
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Cait was considered thrash because of her weaker raw damage output late game, then the meta favored aggression, pushing and lane swaps, 2 areas in which she excel and a game pace that means meaningful fights will typically be fought on lower farm, preventing her weakness from playing a big role, while rewarding her range (since aggression means more divers).
Sure her E was buffed so her escape is improved too, but it was mostly the meta that made her go from "trash is you don't smash lane" to "extremely popular".
On February 26 2013 03:18 TSBspartacus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 03:00 Alaric wrote:
So I wanted to play some Talon and figured Diana was as good a lane as another, her being melee for easy WautoQ action early on.
I got destroyed because every time I hit her meant that she could 100% land a Q on me, and her shield would negate most of my damage, while being popped systematically as she'd just need to add a E on top of it to make sure I'd stay in range long enough. Coincidentally it also allowed her to get a passive-powered aa at the same time, adding even more on her damage.
The silence from Cutthroat doesn't last long enough that I can combo her before she gets to use her shield, making 100-0ing her impossible, and I'd lose most trades. My best best would be to all-in her, disengage, and then have her leave lane because she'd be in range for an EWautoQ kill (I'd be killable too, but E is click'n'point while her Q is a skillshot).
The cooldowns also heavily favored her, with Q being so cheap and spammable compared to Rake. Her 10s cd shield would coincide with Rake's cd whenever she had blue buff to negate my harass too for basically 0 mana, and post-6 her ult is much better of a gapcloser than my E, on a shorter cd too.
Starting long sword+2 pots against her flask+3 pots start was certainly an error (and her shield makes the sustain so much stronger, while I had no mana regen myself) but was it me misplaying or the match-up being heavily Diana-favored? Her W is problematic since it will likely proc again if you are Talon, and it will damage you from the orbs too since you are melee. I'd suggest that your best bet would be to try to outtrade her with your rake while dodging her Q but staying out of the range of E. But if she lands a Q she can jump you post-6 so its a good skill match-up. I think harass with Rake and avoid getting close until she is low enough that your all-in combo is enough to finish her off before she gets off her shield proc. Edit: My reasoning being that Diana is one of the best sustained fighters since her Q cooldown is short and allows multiple ults, her W procs again giving her shield and her passive will proc while she E's you to keep you close. You don't want sustained fights with her at all, you want small harass with huge burst.
Yeah that's what I thought at a point, but since Diana's W is on a 10s cooldown, the same as Talon, she can pretty much ignore Rake if she has blue buff because she won't lose mana spamming it every time I Rake to reduce the damage. Her waveclear won't be as good if she maxes W first (I don't know what this one maxed) but since her Q also has a short cd and a good ratio she'll clear well in all cases. She's also a better roamer than him because even though his ult has a very short cd, it's still very reliant on it for a burst kill while Diana's has a much shorter cd, and her kit also includes better sustained damage and survivability (through W and E) if she ever got caught while moving from lane to lane.
I guess she's just a stronger pick all-around, and has the edge of the match-up. Talon's too binary to be on par with other popular champs because that'd make him a pubstomper anyway.
On February 26 2013 03:16 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 03:00 Alaric wrote:
So I wanted to play some Talon and figured Diana was as good a lane as another, her being melee for easy WautoQ action early on.
I got destroyed because every time I hit her meant that she could 100% land a Q on me, and her shield would negate most of my damage, while being popped systematically as she'd just need to add a E on top of it to make sure I'd stay in range long enough. Coincidentally it also allowed her to get a passive-powered aa at the same time, adding even more on her damage.
The silence from Cutthroat doesn't last long enough that I can combo her before she gets to use her shield, making 100-0ing her impossible, and I'd lose most trades. My best best would be to all-in her, disengage, and then have her leave lane because she'd be in range for an EWautoQ kill (I'd be killable too, but E is click'n'point while her Q is a skillshot).
The cooldowns also heavily favored her, with Q being so cheap and spammable compared to Rake. Her 10s cd shield would coincide with Rake's cd whenever she had blue buff to negate my harass too for basically 0 mana, and post-6 her ult is much better of a gapcloser than my E, on a shorter cd too.
Starting long sword+2 pots against her flask+3 pots start was certainly an error (and her shield makes the sustain so much stronger, while I had no mana regen myself) but was it me misplaying or the match-up being heavily Diana-favored? These are probably reasons that Diana gets played so much and Talon doesn't. If you're set on an AD mid (which are stronger than people give credit for these days), I'd use Khaz, Panth, or Caitlyn. Cait mid new meta is really good.
Screw 'em, I play Talon because I like him, not because I want to win.  (I'd never use him in ranked, even if I became better with him.)
I actually have way more fun with him or Panth than I had trying Kha'Zix or Zed, because they don't burst you in under 2 seconds and they don't have an escape, so you actually have to think about when to go in. Of course this also means that in a vacuum they're a lot weaker than those two, but meh, I really think Riot dropped the ball design-wise with how they wanted their champs to be played when they called Rengar, Kha'Zix and Zed "assassins" (and I've been repeating this so I'll stop there).
It's not about playing an AD, it's about playing an assassin reliant on timing, flanking and stuff like that (I'd play LeBlanc rather than Cait for example when I'm in that mood).
Though his W still fires weirdly when you smartcast it, gimme those kills. :<
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On February 26 2013 03:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
how does any of what you said make her overpowered wtf. We should learn to stop throwing around the word "overpowered" whenever a champion rapes you in a normal game. Koreans are still banning and picking EVE in OGN when she has fallen out of favor in both NA and EU 2-3 patches ago.
Why is that? Also, what are the typical 6 bans you see on KR servers?
I'm curious 
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On February 26 2013 03:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
how does any of what you said make her overpowered wtf. We should learn to stop throwing around the word "overpowered" whenever a champion rapes you in a normal game. Koreans are still banning and picking EVE in OGN when she has fallen out of favor in both NA and EU 2-3 patches ago.
I agree with this 100%. Granted I have not played Cait or any LoL for like 5 months, but I always felt Riot created an evil cycle of listening to people a little too much and making too many changes. I like things to stabilze a bit so you can see how people adapt. Obviously clearly broken things are broken, but I feel like Riot made the community into labeling things as overpowered rather quickly before they try to adapt - they just want a nerf. Not saying you said she needed to be nerfed, but many people just look to/hope for the nerf instead of trying different things.
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If Darius actually gets nerfed it would be the saddest thing ever. He is an unpopular pick in competitive who stomps low elo solo queue because people don't know how to spec/trade. But because of constant whining, Riot might actually think he deserves a nerf which would probably kill his place in competitive. Just because you rape or you see others rape with some champion multiple games in a row DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS OP, especially when most people who whine don't even play ranked. This is similar to back in the day when D+ tosses would spam the the strategy forum about zvp imbalance when they couldn't wall vs. 9 pools.
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Current states of Ad carries and any Ad carry being overpowered or broken just contradicts itself lol, though it might change with the next patch again if BOTRK will really give 40% Attackspeed.
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I'm so glad you guys agree, maybe we can stop whining about OPs every page now? Except for AP trynd, that shits broken.
As for Cait's late game damage, when ADs have 5 items, squishies die in 3 hits. If not, then Cait's range buys her one more auto. Do you actually remember a situation when you thought a 5 item or 6 item Cait wasn't doing enough damage? Because I don't. Now let's stop perpetuating sheep myth #123124. Cait does have weaker early and mid game damage than most ADs.
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On February 26 2013 03:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
If Darius actually gets nerfed it would be the saddest thing ever. He is an unpopular pick in competitive who stomps low elo solo queue because people don't know how to spec/trade. But because of constant whining, Riot might actually think he deserves a nerf which would probably kill his place in competitive. Just because you rape or you see others rape with some champion multiple games in a row DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS OP, especially when most people who whine don't even play ranked. This is similar to back in the day when D+ tosses would spam the the strategy forum about zvp imbalance when they couldn't wall vs. 9 pools.
Being OP != not ending up as what you wanted. Darius is a burst AD champ in lane, whereas Riot envisioned him more as a juggernaut that you don't want to keep fighting for long. Currently, you don't even want to be near him at any point in time because of how fast he can all-in you. I don't see anything wrong with judging the way he plays inadequate and to modify him to be more suited to his role.
(And it's a different thing than nerfing solo lane Soraka/Lulu/Janna "because they're supports".)
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On February 26 2013 03:52 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 03:46 zulu_nation8 wrote:
If Darius actually gets nerfed it would be the saddest thing ever. He is an unpopular pick in competitive who stomps low elo solo queue because people don't know how to spec/trade. But because of constant whining, Riot might actually think he deserves a nerf which would probably kill his place in competitive. Just because you rape or you see others rape with some champion multiple games in a row DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING IS OP, especially when most people who whine don't even play ranked. This is similar to back in the day when D+ tosses would spam the the strategy forum about zvp imbalance when they couldn't wall vs. 9 pools. Being OP != not ending up as what you wanted. Darius is a burst AD champ in lane, whereas Riot envisioned him more as a juggernaut that you don't want to keep fighting for long.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN I DONT UNDERSTAND
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I feel that Caitlin is good because she kites melee really hard. In season 2 she sucked because as ad carry you were supposed to 3 shot everyone and she couldn't do that.
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On February 26 2013 03:52 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I'm so glad you guys agree, maybe we can stop whining about OPs every page now? Except for AP trynd, that shits broken.
As for Cait's late game damage, when ADs have 5 items, squishies die in 3 hits. If not, then Cait's range buys her one more auto. Do you actually remember a situation when you thought a 5 item or 6 item Cait wasn't doing enough damage? Because I don't. Now let's stop perpetuating sheep myth #123124. Cait does have weaker early and mid game damage than most ADs.
Playing vs a 400 armor malph+sunfire/randuin/warmog renek+xin with locket/warmog/randuin.I had 6 dmg items though not 5 XD.
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United States37500 Posts
Ease up on the hyperbole talk plz. I'm with bly here 100%. Cait isn't OP; if Darius gets nerf, it's going to be incredibly disappointing (I think ulti reset nerf is only acceptable part); and AP Trynd definitely needed tweaking.
If you think a champion is strong, we're glad to hear your point of view and discuss the merits and fallacies of your opinion. But please don't preface your post with "x is overpowered because..."
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On February 26 2013 04:06 NeoIllusions wrote:
Ease up on the hyperbole talk plz. I'm with bly here 100%. Cait isn't OP; if Darius gets nerf, it's going to be incredibly disappointing (I think ulti reset nerf is only acceptable part); and AP Trynd definitely needed tweaking.
If you think a champion is strong, we're glad to hear your point of view and discuss the merits and fallacies of your opinion. But please don't preface your post with "x is overpowered because..."
No hyperbole.Was a real game.Never said cait was op.He just asked if we have had a situation in which we thought cait does no damage>.>.
Right now cait does equal if not more damage than a lot of ad-s just cause of how many divers there are and how good she is at just kiting them and staying safe.Being amazing in lane and pushing hard certainly helps.Although when you get behind as cait it's quite pathetic really.
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Calm those tits, I said a little overpowered.
Is it okay to say that "Given the current meta which places a focus on pushing and midgame, Caitlyn's kit makes her a very strong pick"?
I'd say her early/mid game is quite strong. Unless her side is just much worse, she will definitely get some sort of CS lead over her opponent. Having traps and net, combined with her range, makes her a really safe pick. She also does pretty good against some of the more popular AD's, like Graves and Ezreal.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
With Darius, we've probably got a Xin 2.0 coming. Stomps too many bads, yet is completely useless in the professional scene. Riot listens to garbage players and nerfs repeatedly until they rework him to be the most OP piece of shit in the game.
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On February 26 2013 04:13 Roffles wrote:With Darius, we've probably got a Xin 2.0 coming. Stomps too many bads, yet is completely useless in the professional scene. Riot listens to garbage players and nerfs repeatedly until they rework him to be the most OP piece of shit in the game.
He wasn't really op after the rework.In the old jungle pretty much only diamond and solo q made him work.The s3 rework got him to beastmode though :D.
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EPT
