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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On February 03 2013 02:35 zer0das wrote: Personally I find it amusing that people are like "hey guys, it's my promotion matches, please don't feed" and then go something like 1/10/6 when they're not the support. 1/10/6 isn't really acceptable for support either o.O | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On February 03 2013 02:36 barbsq wrote: 1/10/6 isn't really acceptable for support either o.O Those support players all garbage, always 1/10. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 02 2013 23:59 Simberto wrote: Has someone done the maths on AD reds on thresh in comparison to something like Mpen? I am a bit too lazy to do it myself, would be nice if someone had already done it. You get 7-17 extra damage from Q passive if you use AD Reds (depending on ranks in Q). That's great for harass, but Mpen matches that pretty quickly as you gain souls and land QER combos, especially if you're maxing W first. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On February 03 2013 02:42 Zdrastochye wrote: Those support players all garbage, always 1/10. true support players are 0/10! jokes On February 03 2013 02:21 TheYango wrote: It's funny because this is actually a total reverse of the visible MMR discussion that came up on the DotA subforum over the whole DBR debacle. The conclusion that I came to is that visible MMR/split ranked queues sounds good on paper, but in practice does very little to accomplish any of it's ostensible goals. I honestly don't believe that the game would be different/worse off if normal/ranked were one queue with no visible Elo and just a top 100 list. i really like dota's solution, it's so elegant they are going to have rankings only for teams of 5 that way you know where the true competitive arena is | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On February 03 2013 02:57 kainzero wrote: true support players are 0/10! jokes i really like dota's solution, it's so elegant they are going to have rankings only for teams of 5 that way you know where the true competitive arena is While I hate dota/lol comparisons in general, I cannot agree more with this as being preferable to me. | ||
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LaNague
Germany9118 Posts
On February 03 2013 02:09 TheYango wrote: No? If you win 13 Elo every game 5 in a row, you're still only 1265 in a league whose bracket is 1450-1550. The system detects that even 5 wins you're nowhere close to getting into the league's normal bracket, and bumps you down. Not that counterintuitive. i know that, but dont you think going out of the way to hide elo and then make that hidden elo completely dictate your progression through the new divisions is, well, stupid? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2013 03:01 LaNague wrote: i know that, but dont you think going out of the way to hide elo and then make that hidden elo completely dictate your progression through the new divisions is, well, stupid? No, because that's the usefulness of the new system. You obscure any gains and losses in Elo that are not statistically meaningful. That way you prevent people from incorrectly interpreting them. You then make division progression dependent on Elo gains that are large enough to represent real improvement and unlikely to just be statistical fluctuation. That's ALL this is. It's a filter that washes out the noise in terms of Elo gain/loss. It's just jarring to people because it feels weird that there are so few tiers--but that simply shows how much Elo change is just noise and not statistically meaningful. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On February 03 2013 02:36 barbsq wrote: 1/10/6 isn't really acceptable for support either o.O Not saying it is, but if your team is doing poorly anyways, it's a bit more understandable. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11787 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote: The main problem I see is that it is not possible to duo q anymore with someone with a lower elo. I tried to duo q, I gain 10 or less point per win, and lose so much, that even thought I was actually helping my friend (he gained a lot of LP and lose almost nothing) and even if you still win most of your match, you gain nothing at all. That means nothing. The first thing that you should recognize is that league points are more or less meaningless. The only thing that REALLY matters is your hidden Elo. If your hidden Elo is high enough, you will advance, If it is low enough, you will drop down. You don't need to worry about league points in the slightest when considering your advancement. Duo queues work exactly the same as they used to in terms of hidden Elo. Your league point gains/losses may be different, but as we know already, league points are more or less just a front. The fact that even TL readers who've repeatedly read the explanation of how the system works STILL believe that league points are somehow meaningful when repeatedly shown otherwise means the system is doing its job of obscuring the system very well. EDIT: I think if you used up all your accelerated Elo and knew your pre-S3 Elo, it's actually possible to estimate your current Elo based on the assumption that your games are going to for the most part be +/- 12/13 Elo. Unfortunately, given how everyone else's Elo is hidden, that number isn't exactly meaningful because you don't know how inflated the top end of the ladder is, so you have no idea how good that Elo is in the long run. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 03 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote: That means nothing. The first thing that you should recognize is that league points are more or less meaningless. The only thing that REALLY matters is your hidden Elo. If your hidden Elo is high enough, you will advance, If it is low enough, you will drop down. You don't need to worry about league points in the slightest when considering your advancement. Duo queues work exactly the same as they used to in terms of hidden Elo. Your league point gains/losses may be different, but as we know already, league points are more or less just a front. The fact that even TL readers who've repeatedly read the explanation of how the system works STILL believe that league points are somehow meaningful when repeatedly shown otherwise means the system is doing its job of obscuring the system very well. Don't you need 100 league points to get the placement matches ? So they are not meaningless, that you gain more league points when your elo is higher, that I understand, it still mean that you need to play alone or with a friend at the same elo to gain some league point and get to the placement matches. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2013 03:23 WhiteDog wrote: Don't you need 100 league points to get the placement matches ? So they are not meaningless, that you gain more league points when your elo is higher, that I understand, it still mean that you need to play alone or with a friend at the same elo to gain some league point and get to the placement matches. Yes, but remember your league point gains adjust based on your hidden Elo. If your hidden Elo rises, you will gain more and lose less league points to compensate over subsequent games. Conversely, if your hidden Elo is very low, you will gain less and lose more league points. This is exactly what Kyo Yuy was talking about when he gave the example of a 500 Elo platinum player gaining 1 league point for a win and losing 50 for a loss. So even if you don't get a lot of league points for those specific duo queue games, the fact that your Elo has risen as normal means that over subsequent solo queue games, your league points will "catch up" to your Elo. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 03 2013 03:25 TheYango wrote: Yes, but remember your league point gains adjust based on your hidden Elo. If your hidden Elo rises disproportionately in regard to your league point total, you will gain more and lose less league points to compensate over subsequent games. Conversely, if your hidden Elo is very low, you will gain less and lose more league points. This is exactly what Kyo Yuy was talking about when he gave the example of a 500 Elo platinum player gaining 1 league point for a win and losing 50 for a loss. That I understand, but if you duo q with a 1200 elo, at 1500, in term of league point you lose a lot for one loss (like 25-30) while a win gives you a little 10. Even if you elo stagnate (like you gain 3 and lose 2) your league points just go down and you will have to play alone, or with someone who has the same elo as you, to get your league points back (which will be easier I understand that part). That's the only thing that I was saying, even if you don't lose much in elo, duo q can make you lose a lot in league point and prevent you from getting the placement matches. Ultimatly you have to play alone or with equivalent elo player. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On February 03 2013 03:29 WhiteDog wrote: That I understand, but if you duo q with a 1200 elo, at 1500, in term of league point you lose a lot for one loss (like 25-30) while a win gives you a little 10. Even if you elo stagnate (like you gain 3 and lose 2) your league points just go down and you will have to play alone, or with someone who has the same elo as you, to get your league points back (which will be easier I understand that part). That's the only thing that I was saying, even if you don't lose much in elo, duo q can make you lose a lot in league point and prevent you from getting the placement matches. Ultimatly you have to play alone or with equivalent elo player. The point of a duo q is that if you're playing w/ someone lower than you, you should be expected to win significantly more games than you lose. The end result is the same as the old elo system, perhaps a tad more magnified but the principle remains the same. It used to be when you duo q you lost more for losses and got less for wins (think -15/+10 if you're with someone like 200-300 elo lower) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On February 03 2013 02:01 TheYango wrote: How the hell do you "visualize" the fact that resolution on a scale of anything less than 50-100 Elo is just white noise? As long as you are showing a number that specific, people are going to overinterpret it's meaning. Simple as that. Even if you straight up TELL them that Elo changes of less than 100 are almost always going to be attributable to random fluctation (god knows there were enough "there is no Elo hell" resources that did just that) people are going to pretend/believe that granularity is meaningful simply because the information is there. Obviously you don't visualize a single number. That is a silly notion. You need to show how elo is progressing over time. And then educate people about how to interpret the fluctuations in their elo. So instead of only a single number people get to see a chart and then you can put up some additional information, like average elo in the last 30 days or so. You can also fit functions to their elo and show them how they will progress if they continue improving as they did in the past. These are all examples I came up within 5 minutes. The point is that instead of investing time in a system that just looks pretty, I would have liked them to find a way to educate people. You also sound very negative, so probably you're assuming, that people can't be educated anyways. If you believe that people are too stupid to understand how elo works in general, then Riot did properly the right thing to hide the number. But in my opinion they didn't even try. There wasn't even a possibilty in client to see what my elo was last week, much less last month. | ||
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Amethyst21
Canada7032 Posts
Link here Good signing - some good personalities, and a solid team for the LCS | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
You can argue with the goals of the new system (god knows I do), but there's no logical inconsistency between their goals and what they implemented. | ||
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