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On February 03 2013 03:38 TheYango wrote:
All I'm trying to point out is that it's pretty clear that Riot's new system is doing exactly what they set out to do.
You can argue with the goals of the new system (god knows I do), but there's no logical inconsistency between their goals and what they implemented.
How do you exactly know what they wanted to do? As far as I understood they wanted to reduce ladder anxiety, but if people get anxious about being demoted to lower division, than maybe in the long run, not much will change. Time will tell, but I'm not sure that the system is really better.
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On February 03 2013 03:23 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote:On February 03 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote:
The main problem I see is that it is not possible to duo q anymore with someone with a lower elo. I tried to duo q, I gain 10 or less point per win, and lose so much, that even thought I was actually helping my friend (he gained a lot of LP and lose almost nothing) and even if you still win most of your match, you gain nothing at all. That means nothing. The first thing that you should recognize is that league points are more or less meaningless. The only thing that REALLY matters is your hidden Elo. If your hidden Elo is high enough, you will advance, If it is low enough, you will drop down. You don't need to worry about league points in the slightest when considering your advancement. Duo queues work exactly the same as they used to in terms of hidden Elo. Your league point gains/losses may be different, but as we know already, league points are more or less just a front. The fact that even TL readers who've repeatedly read the explanation of how the system works STILL believe that league points are somehow meaningful when repeatedly shown otherwise means the system is doing its job of obscuring the system very well. Don't you need 100 league points to get the placement matches ? So they are not meaningless, that you gain more league points when your elo is higher, that I understand, it still mean that you need to play alone or with a friend at the same elo to gain some league point and get to the placement matches.
If your hidden Elo is silver-level when you're at the bottom of a platinum 5 division, you'll gain jack shit LP for each win, while losing a ton. It'll smooth as you keep winning because your Elo will get closer to your current divsion.
If you got somehow put into Bronze while being Gold hidden Elo, your LP gains will skyrocket so that you reach 100 earlier and get promoted quickly through the ranks. It'll smooth too.
The LP gains aren't related to your opponents, they're related to the gap between your hidden Elo and your current division.
As for the duo you were talking about... well, you're a duoQ, you're supposed to do better than 5 isolated players with your team.
On February 03 2013 03:40 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 03:38 TheYango wrote:
All I'm trying to point out is that it's pretty clear that Riot's new system is doing exactly what they set out to do.
You can argue with the goals of the new system (god knows I do), but there's no logical inconsistency between their goals and what they implemented. How do you exactly know what they wanted to do? As far as I understood they wanted to reduce ladder anxiety, but if people get anxious about being demoted to lower division, than maybe in the long run, not much will change. Time will tell, but I'm not sure that the system is really better.
They wanted to keep people from whining about Elo and seeing the system as so negative. They succeeded in that because unless you educate people (and they don't intend to, and don't believe it can be done easily, in which I think they're right) they won't even known there's still Elo.
Now if only they could succeed in matching goals and design in the jungle too... x)
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Thresh is such a great champ.. he can go any lane o_o.. his q passive is ridiculous, especially going ad carry lolol
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United States23745 Posts
On February 03 2013 03:37 Amethyst21 wrote:Hate to derail but Complexity has signed The Brunch Club Link hereGood signing - some good personalities, and a solid team for the LCS
It was only a matter of time before the LCS teams started getting picked up, wouldn't be surprised if GGU and MRN got ones soon too, although I would hope MRN gets to keep their team name.
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It's not a bug, it's just that Riot's current iteration of the code is EXTREMELY skeptical about letting division I players into the next tier so it's set to overpenalize in LP for losses and reward suboptimally for wins.
To use an example, even though a lot of preseason 1550 ELO players were put into Gold V, if you were placed into Silver I you may actually need 1600+ ELO to see enough LP net gains to qualify for Gold.
Still, as the post said, Riot is trying to make it a little more lenient so that you don't have to be way above the average Gold V ELO to qualify for Gold placement.
My theory is that with the current system, for example, being promoted in Silver I may actually put you directly into Gold IV or even Gold III depending on where your hidden ELO stands when you promote.
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On February 03 2013 03:48 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 03:23 WhiteDog wrote:On February 03 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote:On February 03 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote:
The main problem I see is that it is not possible to duo q anymore with someone with a lower elo. I tried to duo q, I gain 10 or less point per win, and lose so much, that even thought I was actually helping my friend (he gained a lot of LP and lose almost nothing) and even if you still win most of your match, you gain nothing at all. That means nothing. The first thing that you should recognize is that league points are more or less meaningless. The only thing that REALLY matters is your hidden Elo. If your hidden Elo is high enough, you will advance, If it is low enough, you will drop down. You don't need to worry about league points in the slightest when considering your advancement. Duo queues work exactly the same as they used to in terms of hidden Elo. Your league point gains/losses may be different, but as we know already, league points are more or less just a front. The fact that even TL readers who've repeatedly read the explanation of how the system works STILL believe that league points are somehow meaningful when repeatedly shown otherwise means the system is doing its job of obscuring the system very well. Don't you need 100 league points to get the placement matches ? So they are not meaningless, that you gain more league points when your elo is higher, that I understand, it still mean that you need to play alone or with a friend at the same elo to gain some league point and get to the placement matches. If your hidden Elo is silver-level when you're at the bottom of a platinum 5 division, you'll gain jack shit LP for each win, while losing a ton. It'll smooth as you keep winning because your Elo will get closer to your current divsion. If you got somehow put into Bronze while being Gold hidden Elo, your LP gains will skyrocket so that you reach 100 earlier and get promoted quickly through the ranks. It'll smooth too. The LP gains aren't related to your opponents, they're related to the gap between your hidden Elo and your current division. As for the duo you were talking about... well, you're a duoQ, you're supposed to do better than 5 isolated players with your team. Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 03:40 BlueSpace wrote:On February 03 2013 03:38 TheYango wrote:
All I'm trying to point out is that it's pretty clear that Riot's new system is doing exactly what they set out to do.
You can argue with the goals of the new system (god knows I do), but there's no logical inconsistency between their goals and what they implemented. How do you exactly know what they wanted to do? As far as I understood they wanted to reduce ladder anxiety, but if people get anxious about being demoted to lower division, than maybe in the long run, not much will change. Time will tell, but I'm not sure that the system is really better. They wanted to keep people from whining about Elo and seeing the system as so negative. They succeeded in that because unless you educate people (and they don't intend to, and don't believe it can be done easily, in which I think they're right) they won't even known there's still Elo.Now if only they could succeed in matching goals and design in the jungle too... x)
I'm not sure if you've seen Reddit lately, but there's pages and pages of people whining about how they won 5 games and got up to 70-80 LP, lost two games and got demoted.
People are expecting a system more like SC2 where you get shiny points for everything and super mega double bonus points every so often, so now that the system didn't place them perfectly in the division they belong and they're gaining/losing crazy amounts of LP per game and don't understand why, all the negativity is still coming out.
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Dont really like coL, but I love TBC, so I'm happy with it ^_^
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On February 03 2013 04:06 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 03:48 Alaric wrote:On February 03 2013 03:23 WhiteDog wrote:On February 03 2013 03:17 TheYango wrote:On February 03 2013 03:13 WhiteDog wrote:
The main problem I see is that it is not possible to duo q anymore with someone with a lower elo. I tried to duo q, I gain 10 or less point per win, and lose so much, that even thought I was actually helping my friend (he gained a lot of LP and lose almost nothing) and even if you still win most of your match, you gain nothing at all. That means nothing. The first thing that you should recognize is that league points are more or less meaningless. The only thing that REALLY matters is your hidden Elo. If your hidden Elo is high enough, you will advance, If it is low enough, you will drop down. You don't need to worry about league points in the slightest when considering your advancement. Duo queues work exactly the same as they used to in terms of hidden Elo. Your league point gains/losses may be different, but as we know already, league points are more or less just a front. The fact that even TL readers who've repeatedly read the explanation of how the system works STILL believe that league points are somehow meaningful when repeatedly shown otherwise means the system is doing its job of obscuring the system very well. Don't you need 100 league points to get the placement matches ? So they are not meaningless, that you gain more league points when your elo is higher, that I understand, it still mean that you need to play alone or with a friend at the same elo to gain some league point and get to the placement matches. If your hidden Elo is silver-level when you're at the bottom of a platinum 5 division, you'll gain jack shit LP for each win, while losing a ton. It'll smooth as you keep winning because your Elo will get closer to your current divsion. If you got somehow put into Bronze while being Gold hidden Elo, your LP gains will skyrocket so that you reach 100 earlier and get promoted quickly through the ranks. It'll smooth too. The LP gains aren't related to your opponents, they're related to the gap between your hidden Elo and your current division. As for the duo you were talking about... well, you're a duoQ, you're supposed to do better than 5 isolated players with your team. On February 03 2013 03:40 BlueSpace wrote:On February 03 2013 03:38 TheYango wrote:
All I'm trying to point out is that it's pretty clear that Riot's new system is doing exactly what they set out to do.
You can argue with the goals of the new system (god knows I do), but there's no logical inconsistency between their goals and what they implemented. How do you exactly know what they wanted to do? As far as I understood they wanted to reduce ladder anxiety, but if people get anxious about being demoted to lower division, than maybe in the long run, not much will change. Time will tell, but I'm not sure that the system is really better. They wanted to keep people from whining about Elo and seeing the system as so negative. They succeeded in that because unless you educate people (and they don't intend to, and don't believe it can be done easily, in which I think they're right) they won't even known there's still Elo.Now if only they could succeed in matching goals and design in the jungle too... x) I'm not sure if you've seen Reddit lately, but there's pages and pages of people whining about how they won 5 games and got up to 70-80 LP, lost two games and got demoted. People are expecting a system more like SC2 where you get shiny points for everything and super mega double bonus points every so often, so now that the system didn't place them perfectly in the division they belong and they're gaining/losing crazy amounts of LP per game and don't understand why, all the negativity is still coming out.
That is one of the major flaws of the new system. People start a division with 0 LP, lose 5 games in a row, then they win 2 and lose 1 and suddenly they are demoted a division. They assume that losing games with 0 LP has absolutely no impact, so then they are frustrated when they get demoted after 2 wins and 1 loss.
Even on the LoL forums I've seen people say "I've won 5 games and lost 2, but I lost way more LP for the losses! What gives?" Then Yegg comes in and explains that in reality, this player actually lost 3 games at 0 LP, then won 5, then lost 2, placing them back at close to 0 LP (and their original hidden ELO).
People who don't understand that ELO still exists as a hidden statistic seem to assume that losing with 0 LP doesn't really matter, so they rage when they end up losing more than they gain.
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I expect it to calm down. It's more Riot's fault for not tuning the system fine enough at launch, or even not simply warning the players "the system is new so it'll place you, but it may take some time to adjust. Imagine when you move faster in Elo during your placements matches" or something like that, than the system's itself, I think.
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On February 03 2013 04:31 Alaric wrote:
I expect it to calm down. It's more Riot's fault for not tuning the system fine enough at launch, or even not simply warning the players "the system is new so it'll place you, but it may take some time to adjust. Imagine when you move faster in Elo during your placements matches" or something like that, than the system's itself, I think.
If it does die down it wont be for a very long time or until changes are made, because competitive people tend to care A LOT about this sort of stuff
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United States23745 Posts
On February 03 2013 04:38 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 04:31 Alaric wrote:
I expect it to calm down. It's more Riot's fault for not tuning the system fine enough at launch, or even not simply warning the players "the system is new so it'll place you, but it may take some time to adjust. Imagine when you move faster in Elo during your placements matches" or something like that, than the system's itself, I think. If it does die down it wont be for a very long time or until changes are made, because competitive people tend to care A LOT about this sort of stuff
I think he just means people are all up in arms just because it's different and they don't fully understand the system yet. Over time they will adjust and any changes Riot makes are likely to be minimal.
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United States47024 Posts
In addition, I found a bug on Alistar's Headbutt which caused players to be stunned for a long time if punted into a wall. I fixed it after a short discussion with some members of the design team.
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On February 03 2013 04:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +In addition, I found a bug on Alistar's Headbutt which caused players to be stunned for a long time if punted into a wall. I fixed it after a short discussion with some members of the design team.
y i found this somewhere yesterday already, wtf that's one of the good things about ali.or was there a bug that stunned them longer than usual.
nerf supp ali more plx
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On February 03 2013 04:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +In addition, I found a bug on Alistar's Headbutt which caused players to be stunned for a long time if punted into a wall. I fixed it after a short discussion with some members of the design team.
WOOOW,gutted
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On February 03 2013 04:46 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +In addition, I found a bug on Alistar's Headbutt which caused players to be stunned for a long time if punted into a wall. I fixed it after a short discussion with some members of the design team.
They added a 0.5 second stun on the end of Headbutt to compensate.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2013 04:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2013 04:46 TheYango wrote:In addition, I found a bug on Alistar's Headbutt which caused players to be stunned for a long time if punted into a wall. I fixed it after a short discussion with some members of the design team. They added a 0.5 second stun on the end of Headbutt to compensate.
See, I don't like that. Functionally it's a similar power level, but it doesn't reward finding good Headbutt angles as much.
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I always thought it worked something like,when you headbutt someone into a wall,the stun duration is like a compensation for the traveling distance if there was no wall,which would be really cool and intuitive.
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EPT
