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[Patch 3.01: Season 3] General Discussion - Page 47

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arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
February 02 2013 16:09 GMT
#921
On February 03 2013 00:41 Numy wrote:
Don't really think people here are confused. The dropping divisions isn't about why they dropping it's more about how it feels far worse than just losing some ELO.

I'm quite fond of the, win 7 points, then immediatly lose all of them.

I dont know what was wrong with the ELO system, made it super easy to judge where you are in comparison to other people.
Its just like SC2's system(i.e it fucking blows)
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 16:14:52
February 02 2013 16:10 GMT
#922
The biggest issue I have with the new system is a general principle that seems to suggest that obfuscating information for the purpose of making people 'feel better' is somehow more of a worthwhile effort than educating them.

as far as the new system's mechanics, I think they're actually kinda cool (the bo3, bo5 thing they do for promotions is actually kinda neat IMO). I just object to the inability to see elo, and the general trend to try to hide stats, as if they somehow disappear by doing so.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
February 02 2013 16:50 GMT
#923
On February 03 2013 00:40 Kyo Yuy wrote:
The New League System Explained

Okay, so there appears to be a lot of confusion about the new LP system. Having gone through several red posts (the most informative being this one, I think I have a solid idea on how the LP system works and I hope this explanation can help frustrated players.

Here's the tl;dr - your ELO still exists, but is now hidden. The higher your hidden ELO is, the more League Points you win and the less League Points you lose. The lower your hidden ELO is, the less League Points you win and the more League Points you lose. As a corollary, if your ELO is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than everyone else in your division, you may rise up divisions without having to go through a division series. Conversely, once your ELO becomes SIGNIFICANTLY lower than everyone else in your division, you have a possibility of dropping a division.

For example, if your hidden ELO is 1700 and you are in Silver Division I, you may have more losses than wins and still instantly qualify for a promotion series, as the ELO range for Silver Division I is approximately 1450-1550 ELO and you are way above that.

On the other end of the spectrum, if your hidden ELO is 1200 and you are in Silver Division I, you could win 5 games in a row and lose 1 and still be demoted down a tier, as your hidden ELO is way below the expected ELO range for Silver Division I.

So how does matchmaking work? It's done by hidden ELO. Simple. Your League Division, League Points, etc., have absolutely no impact on matchmaking.

HOWEVER, once your match ENDS, your hidden ELO is compared to the ELO of players in your division. If your ELO is much higher than everyone in your division, you will gain a LOT of League Points and you may be able to skip tiers (Source). If your hidden ELO is much lower than everyone in your division, the system may consider demoting you to a lower division.

As expected, the people who are most affected by the transition to the LP system are people whose ELOs were at opposing extremes of the division cut offs. This is especially true for divisions with an extremely wide ELO range, 100 or greater.

When Riot made the divisions and tiers, it wanted to make sure that every division had an equal number of players. This leads to not every division having the same ELO range - in fact, it would appear that Silver V has a much narrower ELO range than Silver I, but this has yet to be tested. In general though, the division I of each tier should have a higher ELO distribution than the other divisions. I believe this is the case as Yegg has stated the system is stricter about promoting players up tiers, given that you can never be demoted down tiers.

In theory, it is possible to be in Platinum V then repeatedly lose ELO - you could have 500 ELO and still be Platinum V. However, the new system is set so that your LP gains will be miniscule and your LP losses will be extremely high - a 500 ELO Platinum player may win 50 games in a row, lose 1, and then still lose all their LP!

I believe that Riot implemented the new LP system to account for "lucky/unlucky" streaks. On one end of the spectrum, there are players who have gotten REALLY lucky and had 20 straight wins in a row. Their ELO might have gone up 200. However, it's possible that these players don't really "belong" in that ELO, and thus the promotion/division series are in place to test a player's consistency and ability to compete at a given ELO. Conversely, a lot of players in the 1200s can run into bad streaks and then tank a ton of ELO in a day. Assuming these players were placed into Silver, even though their hidden ELO is in "ELO Hell," their apparent League is still Silver V and they can never drop to Bronze except due to extended periods of inactivity.

The flip side of this is that it is now much, much harder to visibly see numerical improvement. You basically have to PROVE that you belong in a certain ELO by not having any losing streaks and consistently having a net win > loss rate. Many players have had instances where they jumped up to 1500 ELO in a day, then tanked down to 1200 and concluded that they belonged in 1500 and were brought down to ELO Hell by bad players. Now if you have a winning streak, you must be able to stay in that ELO bracket for an extended period of time without entering any losing streaks before the system will consider you eligible for promotion.

Again, tl;dr - matchmaking is done by hidden ELO. Your LP gains are higher if your ELO is higher, your LP gains are lower if your ELO is lower. The inverse is true for LP losses per ELO.

Please feel free to correct anything that I've said that is wrong. These are conclusions I drew based on reading posts from a bunch of Rioters on the League forums.

I hope this helps anyone that is confused and provides an explanation for frustrated players who find themselves randomly dropping divisions despite an even W/L ratio.

We all understand how it work, it is just shit.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
BlueSpace
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany2182 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 16:53:27
February 02 2013 16:52 GMT
#924
On February 03 2013 01:10 barbsq wrote:
The biggest issue I have with the new system is a general principle that seems to suggest that obfuscating information for the purpose of making people 'feel better' is somehow more of a worthwhile effort than educating them.


Exactly, the right thing would be to implement tools that better visualize the way elo progression works instead of making a complicated "pretty ribbons" system.
Probe1: "Because people are opinionated and love to share their thoughts. Then they read someone else agree with them and get their opinion confused with fact."
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 16:57:05
February 02 2013 16:55 GMT
#925
I played 11 games (went 5-6) yesterday on the new system. End up with 20 points. Sort of meh. I like SC2's system better where the numbers eventually inflate. So I may have done the same performance in SC2, but still ended up 100 points or so ahead. This one I spent all day and ended up with 20? And if I had not played my last game would have had 0? Idk seems not the best having a hard cap of 100 points.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
February 02 2013 16:57 GMT
#926
On February 03 2013 01:55 Diamond wrote:
I played 11 games (went 5-6) yesterday on the new system. End up with 20 points. Sort of meh. I like SC2's system better where the numbers eventually inflate. So I may have done the same performance in SC2, but still ended up 100 points or so ahead. This one I spent all day and ended up with 20? And if I had not played my last game would have had 0? Idk seems not the best having a hard cap of 100 points.

??? You lost more games than you won and expected to come out 100 points ahead?
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
OutlaW-
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic5053 Posts
February 02 2013 16:59 GMT
#927
On February 03 2013 01:55 Diamond wrote:
I played 11 games (went 5-6) yesterday on the new system. End up with 20 points. Sort of meh. I like SC2's system better where the numbers eventually inflate. So I may have done the same performance in SC2, but still ended up 100 points or so ahead. This one I spent all day and ended up with 20? And if I had not played my last game would have had 0? Idk seems not the best having a hard cap of 100 points.

This was the same back when you just had Elo.. You could play 20 games in a day, win 10 lose 10 and be at the same exact Elo that you started and felt even shittier. I actually think this is one of the things the new system does right, though I still hate it.
Delete your post underage b&. You're incestuous for you're onee-chan so you're clearly not a bad guy, but others might not agree
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 17:04:08
February 02 2013 17:01 GMT
#928
On February 03 2013 01:52 BlueSpace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2013 01:10 barbsq wrote:
The biggest issue I have with the new system is a general principle that seems to suggest that obfuscating information for the purpose of making people 'feel better' is somehow more of a worthwhile effort than educating them.


Exactly, the right thing would be to implement tools that better visualize the way elo progression works instead of making a complicated "pretty ribbons" system.

How the hell do you "visualize" the fact that resolution on a scale of anything less than 50-100 Elo is just white noise?

As long as you are showing a number that specific, people are going to overinterpret it's meaning. Simple as that. Even if you straight up TELL them that Elo changes of less than 100 are almost always going to be attributable to random fluctation (god knows there were enough "there is no Elo hell" resources that did just that) people are going to pretend/believe that granularity is meaningful simply because the information is there.
Moderator
Cuddle
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden1345 Posts
February 02 2013 17:03 GMT
#929
I don't know if it's the new system or what but my 5 games (3-2) since new system were complete stomps. Not even close to evenly matched, like 17-2 and surrender at 20 every game. Might just be coincidence though.
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 17:05:39
February 02 2013 17:05 GMT
#930
On the other end of the spectrum, if your hidden ELO is 1200 and you are in Silver Division I, you could win 5 games in a row and lose 1 and still be demoted down a tier, as your hidden ELO is way below the expected ELO range for Silver Division I.

That's so counterintuitive I still don't understand it. Do those 5 wins give you 1 elo each?

I believe that Riot implemented the new LP system to account for "lucky/unlucky" streaks. On one end of the spectrum, there are players who have gotten REALLY lucky and had 20 straight wins in a row. Their ELO might have gone up 200. However, it's possible that these players don't really "belong" in that ELO, and thus the promotion/division series are in place to test a player's consistency and ability to compete at a given ELO. Conversely, a lot of players in the 1200s can run into bad streaks and then tank a ton of ELO in a day. Assuming these players were placed into Silver, even though their hidden ELO is in "ELO Hell," their apparent League is still Silver V and they can never drop to Bronze except due to extended periods of inactivity.

We all know people think they're at a higher elo than they really are, but it doesn't mean much when we can actually see their elo and just ignore them.

I hope this helps anyone that is confused and provides an explanation for frustrated players who find themselves randomly dropping divisions despite an even W/L ratio.

... So if you're on the lower end of a division it's up to you to PROVE that you belong in that division. And gaining divisions is also harder. This just makes people lose that sense of progress and makes them want to stay in their division.


Obfuscators!
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
February 02 2013 17:05 GMT
#931
On February 03 2013 02:03 Cuddle wrote:
I don't know if it's the new system or what but my 5 games (3-2) since new system were complete stomps. Not even close to evenly matched, like 17-2 and surrender at 20 every game. Might just be coincidence though.


With huge changes like this you tend to have a lot of people that haven't been playing actively start playing again just to see the fuss. This most likely causes a lot of one sided matches.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
February 02 2013 17:09 GMT
#932
On February 03 2013 02:05 obesechicken13 wrote:
That's so counterintuitive I still don't understand it. Do those 5 wins give you 1 elo each?

No?

If you win 13 Elo every game 5 in a row, you're still only 1265 in a league whose bracket is 1450-1550. The system detects that even 5 wins you're nowhere close to getting into the league's normal bracket, and bumps you down.

Not that counterintuitive.
Moderator
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
February 02 2013 17:11 GMT
#933
On February 03 2013 02:01 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2013 01:52 BlueSpace wrote:
On February 03 2013 01:10 barbsq wrote:
The biggest issue I have with the new system is a general principle that seems to suggest that obfuscating information for the purpose of making people 'feel better' is somehow more of a worthwhile effort than educating them.


Exactly, the right thing would be to implement tools that better visualize the way elo progression works instead of making a complicated "pretty ribbons" system.

How the hell do you "visualize" the fact that resolution on a scale of anything less than 50-100 Elo is just white noise?

As long as you are showing a number that specific, people are going to overinterpret it's meaning. Simple as that. Even if you straight up TELL them that Elo changes of less than 100 are almost always going to be attributable to random fluctation (god knows there were enough "there is no Elo hell" resources that did just that) people are going to pretend/believe that granularity is meaningful simply because the information is there.


Honestly unless there is a 1v1 bracket elo is meaningless.Dunno why anyone cares about it at all.Unless you start losing less elo for going 10/2 or w/e it will not be accurate ever(even then it wouldn't).I've seen people who are simply put absolute trash and still are in diamond.Obviously if you are pro level you SHOULD be able to get to high elo(unless you main support then it still is luck).

Kyo Yuy
Profile Joined January 2009
United States1286 Posts
February 02 2013 17:13 GMT
#934
On February 03 2013 02:09 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2013 02:05 obesechicken13 wrote:
That's so counterintuitive I still don't understand it. Do those 5 wins give you 1 elo each?

No?

If you win 13 Elo every game 5 in a row, you're still only 1265 in a league whose bracket is 1450-1550. The system detects that even 5 wins you're nowhere close to getting into the league's normal bracket, and bumps you down.

Not that counterintuitive.

Basically what TheYango said. Your ELO gains/losses are NOT affected. But you may gain very few LP and still be bumped DOWN divisions because your hidden ELO is much lower than expected for Silver I.
#1 KawaiiRice fan :D
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
February 02 2013 17:18 GMT
#935
I'm pretty sure that the reason there's such a backlash on these forums is most of us are comfortable dota/hon vets or people who have put in enough time in League that they're comfortable with the current system, while admitting it's not perfect. The low end of the spectrum (aka the majority of players) might appreciate a more... visual system of promotion. It's definitely just a "shiny ribbons" approach to market the ranked system as a more coordinated system, rather than just a graph of a player's skill.

I don't really care either way, but then again I'm not in the target audience.
Hey! How you doin'?
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
February 02 2013 17:18 GMT
#936
That was a nice read kyu

Personally i dont understand all the fuzz about the new system. I dont really care much about elo or LP just trying to improve every game and analyze my mistakes^^

Just got promoted to plat III yay^^ also the for me the bo3/bo5 create a certsin tension and activate tryhard mode, i like it.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 17:22:46
February 02 2013 17:21 GMT
#937
It's funny because this is actually a total reverse of the visible MMR discussion that came up on the DotA subforum over the whole DBR debacle.

The conclusion that I came to is that visible MMR/split ranked queues sounds good on paper, but in practice does very little to accomplish any of it's ostensible goals. I honestly don't believe that the game would be different/worse off if normal/ranked were one queue with no visible Elo and just a top 100 list.
Moderator
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
February 02 2013 17:23 GMT
#938
On February 03 2013 02:21 TheYango wrote:
It's funny because this is actually a total reverse of the visible MMR discussion that came up on the DotA subforum over the whole DBR debacle.

The conclusion that I came to is that visible MMR/split ranked queues sounds good on paper, but in practice does very little to accomplish any of it's ostensible goals.


I think the LoL community is far more individual focused than Dota community. Since dota started with zero ranking system and it's always been Team > Pub attitude. So people are a lot more concerned since they believe in the ranked being the game mode instead of just pub for fun.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-02 17:27:29
February 02 2013 17:24 GMT
#939
On February 03 2013 02:09 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2013 02:05 obesechicken13 wrote:
That's so counterintuitive I still don't understand it. Do those 5 wins give you 1 elo each?

No?

If you win 13 Elo every game 5 in a row, you're still only 1265 in a league whose bracket is 1450-1550. The system detects that even 5 wins you're nowhere close to getting into the league's normal bracket, and bumps you down.

Not that counterintuitive.

For us it isn't. For people who don't understand the tiers were designed in correlation to Elo brackets, or don't understand that you're not necessarily at your tier's Elo bracket, it could be. The former case is pretty likely I think.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
February 02 2013 17:35 GMT
#940
Personally I find it amusing that people are like "hey guys, it's my promotion matches, please don't feed" and then go something like 1/10/6 when they're not the support.
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