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On January 12 2013 01:50 Agnosthar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 00:51 LaNague wrote:
they made Eve even worse by allowing her to perma stealth, which means no cleverly placed wards picking up a gank.
Plus, since they "nerfed" her stealth, they made her more combat viable.
So of course they need to nerf the crap out of her now. I'm usually a big proponent of Riot balancing purely for the top level of competitive play. Whereby if you're losing to a certain champion or team-comp which isn't a problem at high skill levels, then you just need to get better, without help from the balance team. With Eve though, specifically in solo queue, her stealth mechanic is strong enough that it requires a team effort to overcome. Anything that forces that level of co-ordination is going to need major trade-offs in other areas. Before these nerfs I don't think Eve had enough compensating weaknesses. I'm glad to see them making a start to giving Eve meaningful mana costs. Also, does anyone know if the Eve change to current % health stops her being the best baron stealer in the game? I was never really sure how her ult worked with monsters.
Well for 1, Eve is really strong in competitive play as well.
Secondly, she not only requires coordination, she requires pink wards. Pinks are 50G more, apeice. Additionally she kinda makes sightstone, the best support item currently, far less valuable. I think, reasonably you need at least 2 pink wards during laning phase vs. Eve, even with coordination, maybe more. Thus, thats 100G+ every 3 minutes of "Eve Tax". Thus, Eve needs to be that much weaker than her counterparts to be "balanced" even in a highly coordinated enviroment.
What that translates to is starting at ~ a faerie charm disadvantage, at 6 mins about a Dring, 9 ~ a chalice/Blasting, 18 ~ a NLR, ect.
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On January 12 2013 04:40 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:35 Alaric wrote:On January 12 2013 04:30 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2013 03:06 Badboyrune wrote:On January 12 2013 01:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote:On January 12 2013 00:54 Roffles wrote:
Solo top rammus IMO. That lil rolling fucker's a monster when farmed. Not everyone realizes just how broken his passive is. His W alone gives him a bf sword in the midgame PD IE 2x heavy armor items and warmogs rammus (with tp and homeguard naturally) top sounds like fun in league of ad casters. I like SotD combined with Hydra or IE. Taunt a squishy, kill a squishy*. *Testing limited to coop vs AI games. Montegomery is not responsible for any Elo or dignity lost attempting this in ranked play. This is a challenge for TROLLS. This should be the TROLLS call. Spoken in GD and sent to the TROLLS Chairman for study and delegation.
Well Seuss is the Chairman.
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Squid has no AP watsoever on Elise, does he actually deal damage with that kind of build ? ...
Also why do nobody play her with a lot of AP ? Since assassins are supposed to be very strong in this patch and that Elise is supposed to be one in spider form. Is her melee range really problematic ? And also with her "godlike" laning, she could very well shut stuff like kha'zix mid down, wouldn't she ?
Sorry if these questions seem stupid, I was a bit on a pause at the time she got released.
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United States15536 Posts
On January 12 2013 04:48 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:40 AsmodeusXI wrote:On January 12 2013 04:35 Alaric wrote:On January 12 2013 04:30 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2013 03:06 Badboyrune wrote:On January 12 2013 01:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote:On January 12 2013 00:54 Roffles wrote:
Solo top rammus IMO. That lil rolling fucker's a monster when farmed. Not everyone realizes just how broken his passive is. His W alone gives him a bf sword in the midgame PD IE 2x heavy armor items and warmogs rammus (with tp and homeguard naturally) top sounds like fun in league of ad casters. I like SotD combined with Hydra or IE. Taunt a squishy, kill a squishy*. *Testing limited to coop vs AI games. Montegomery is not responsible for any Elo or dignity lost attempting this in ranked play. This is a challenge for TROLLS. This should be the TROLLS call. Spoken in GD and sent to the TROLLS Chairman for study and delegation. Well Seuss is the Chairman.
Ya. I meant in general. =P
On January 12 2013 04:48 -Zoda- wrote:
Squid has no AP watsoever on Elise, does he actually deal damage with that kind of build ? ...
Also why do nobody play her with a lot of AP ? Since assassins are supposed to be very strong in this patch and that Elise is supposed to be one in spider form. Is her melee range really problematic ? And also with her "godlike" laning, she could very well shut stuff like kha'zix mid down, wouldn't she ?
Sorry if these questions seem stupid, I was a bit on a pause at the time she got released.
Check the Elise thread! Maybe the answers will already be there.
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On January 12 2013 04:40 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:35 Alaric wrote:On January 12 2013 04:30 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2013 03:06 Badboyrune wrote:On January 12 2013 01:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote:On January 12 2013 00:54 Roffles wrote:
Solo top rammus IMO. That lil rolling fucker's a monster when farmed. Not everyone realizes just how broken his passive is. His W alone gives him a bf sword in the midgame PD IE 2x heavy armor items and warmogs rammus (with tp and homeguard naturally) top sounds like fun in league of ad casters. I like SotD combined with Hydra or IE. Taunt a squishy, kill a squishy*. *Testing limited to coop vs AI games. Montegomery is not responsible for any Elo or dignity lost attempting this in ranked play. This is a challenge for TROLLS. This should be the TROLLS call. Spoken in GD and sent to the TROLLS Chairman for study and delegation.
I nominate a conch shell as the official GD notification sound.
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On January 12 2013 04:48 -Zoda- wrote:
Squid has no AP watsoever on Elise, does he actually deal damage with that kind of build ? ...
Also why do nobody play her with a lot of AP ? Since assassins are supposed to be very strong in this patch and that Elise is supposed to be one in spider form. Is her melee range really problematic ? And also with her "godlike" laning, she could very well shut stuff like kha'zix mid down, wouldn't she ?
Sorry if these questions seem stupid, I was a bit on a pause at the time she got released.
You go standard spell pen build on her. Spell pen boots, guise, abyssal. Then go for like tanky ap items zhonyas, rylai maybe (not sure on that one). Finish liandry at some point and prob get a GA.
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On January 12 2013 04:48 -Zoda- wrote:
Squid has no AP watsoever on Elise, does he actually deal damage with that kind of build ? ...
Also why do nobody play her with a lot of AP ? Since assassins are supposed to be very strong in this patch and that Elise is supposed to be one in spider form. Is her melee range really problematic ? And also with her "godlike" laning, she could very well shut stuff like kha'zix mid down, wouldn't she ?
Sorry if these questions seem stupid, I was a bit on a pause at the time she got released.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Elise
this answers your question: look at her ratios, both Qs scale off of per 100 ap and only humanform w has decent Ap scaling, but her base dmg is huge, thats why people go spellpen/tanky build.
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On January 12 2013 04:52 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:48 -Zoda- wrote:
Squid has no AP watsoever on Elise, does he actually deal damage with that kind of build ? ...
Also why do nobody play her with a lot of AP ? Since assassins are supposed to be very strong in this patch and that Elise is supposed to be one in spider form. Is her melee range really problematic ? And also with her "godlike" laning, she could very well shut stuff like kha'zix mid down, wouldn't she ?
Sorry if these questions seem stupid, I was a bit on a pause at the time she got released. You go standard spell pen build on her. Spell pen boots, guise, abyssal. Then go for like tanky ap items zhonyas, rylai maybe (not sure on that one). Finish liandry at some point and prob get a GA.
Too little CDR and too little HP imo.
Warmog/Sunfire+Frozen Heart/IBG/GA/Randuin. Could get a Locket too if necessary. Zhonya really isn't that strong on her, she has enough escape with flash and her spider E.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Elise's Q scales, as all skills in the game, smoothly. i. e. her AP ratio on Q is 0.03.
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On January 12 2013 05:22 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:52 Zooper31 wrote:On January 12 2013 04:48 -Zoda- wrote:
Squid has no AP watsoever on Elise, does he actually deal damage with that kind of build ? ...
Also why do nobody play her with a lot of AP ? Since assassins are supposed to be very strong in this patch and that Elise is supposed to be one in spider form. Is her melee range really problematic ? And also with her "godlike" laning, she could very well shut stuff like kha'zix mid down, wouldn't she ?
Sorry if these questions seem stupid, I was a bit on a pause at the time she got released. You go standard spell pen build on her. Spell pen boots, guise, abyssal. Then go for like tanky ap items zhonyas, rylai maybe (not sure on that one). Finish liandry at some point and prob get a GA. Too little CDR and too little HP imo. Warmog/Sunfire+Frozen Heart/IBG/GA/Randuin. Could get a Locket too if necessary. Zhonya really isn't that strong on her, she has enough escape with flash and her spider E.
Lol so you go no spell pen at all and go pure tank. Different ways to play, both are viable. Could def go sunfire/warmogs over zhonyas, didn't think of IBG.
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Thing that really bothers me is people act like "per 100 ap" means you don't get any benefit from it before you get exactly 100 AP, when it's just another way of listing how it scales.
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On January 12 2013 05:25 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:22 Doctorbeat wrote:On January 12 2013 04:52 Zooper31 wrote:On January 12 2013 04:48 -Zoda- wrote:
Squid has no AP watsoever on Elise, does he actually deal damage with that kind of build ? ...
Also why do nobody play her with a lot of AP ? Since assassins are supposed to be very strong in this patch and that Elise is supposed to be one in spider form. Is her melee range really problematic ? And also with her "godlike" laning, she could very well shut stuff like kha'zix mid down, wouldn't she ?
Sorry if these questions seem stupid, I was a bit on a pause at the time she got released. You go standard spell pen build on her. Spell pen boots, guise, abyssal. Then go for like tanky ap items zhonyas, rylai maybe (not sure on that one). Finish liandry at some point and prob get a GA. Too little CDR and too little HP imo. Warmog/Sunfire+Frozen Heart/IBG/GA/Randuin. Could get a Locket too if necessary. Zhonya really isn't that strong on her, she has enough escape with flash and her spider E. Lol so you go no spell pen at all and go pure tank. Different ways to play, both are viable. Could def go sunfire/warmogs over zhonyas, didn't think of IBG.
I'd still get the Sorcs+Haunting Guise, but no Abyssal, and definitely a Void Staff somewhere.
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for jungle elise i've been going spirit stone > sorcs > haunting > warmog's > void
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Watching ZionSpartan play nidalee just makes me despise the hero even more
Whats that team losing a fight at baron? Better make sure I PUSH TOP LANE AND LET MY TEAM LOSE2 PEOPLE AND BARON NP.
On January 12 2013 04:41 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 01:50 Agnosthar wrote:On January 12 2013 00:51 LaNague wrote:
they made Eve even worse by allowing her to perma stealth, which means no cleverly placed wards picking up a gank.
Plus, since they "nerfed" her stealth, they made her more combat viable.
So of course they need to nerf the crap out of her now. I'm usually a big proponent of Riot balancing purely for the top level of competitive play. Whereby if you're losing to a certain champion or team-comp which isn't a problem at high skill levels, then you just need to get better, without help from the balance team. With Eve though, specifically in solo queue, her stealth mechanic is strong enough that it requires a team effort to overcome. Anything that forces that level of co-ordination is going to need major trade-offs in other areas. Before these nerfs I don't think Eve had enough compensating weaknesses. I'm glad to see them making a start to giving Eve meaningful mana costs. Also, does anyone know if the Eve change to current % health stops her being the best baron stealer in the game? I was never really sure how her ult worked with monsters. Well for 1, Eve is really strong in competitive play as well. Secondly, she not only requires coordination, she requires pink wards. Pinks are 50G more, apeice. Additionally she kinda makes sightstone, the best support item currently, far less valuable. I think, reasonably you need at least 2 pink wards during laning phase vs. Eve, even with coordination, maybe more. Thus, thats 100G+ every 3 minutes of "Eve Tax". Thus, Eve needs to be that much weaker than her counterparts to be "balanced" even in a highly coordinated enviroment. What that translates to is starting at ~ a faerie charm disadvantage, at 6 mins about a Dring, 9 ~ a chalice/Blasting, 18 ~ a NLR, ect.
you really shouldnt have to nerf eve just because people need to buy pink wards, even if you nerf her people still have to buy pink wards aslong as stealths in the game
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On January 12 2013 05:34 arb wrote:
Watching ZionSpartan play nidalee just makes me despise the hero even more
Whats that team losing a fight at baron? Better make sure I PUSH TOP LANE AND LET MY TEAM LOSE2 PEOPLE AND BARON NP.
I played an ARAM last night where between my Nidalee and Miscue's Ziggs we made 3 of the enemy team rage quit within 5 minutes.
Felt bad.
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On January 12 2013 05:53 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:34 arb wrote:
Watching ZionSpartan play nidalee just makes me despise the hero even more
Whats that team losing a fight at baron? Better make sure I PUSH TOP LANE AND LET MY TEAM LOSE2 PEOPLE AND BARON NP. I played an ARAM last night where between my Nidalee and Miscue's Ziggs we made 3 of the enemy team rage quit within 5 minutes. Felt bad.
Well duh, that's a super-OP combo
€: esp. since nobody ever builds defense in aram
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chauster just made a twitter and already worth the follow, i thinks.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On January 12 2013 06:02 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:53 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2013 05:34 arb wrote:
Watching ZionSpartan play nidalee just makes me despise the hero even more
Whats that team losing a fight at baron? Better make sure I PUSH TOP LANE AND LET MY TEAM LOSE2 PEOPLE AND BARON NP. I played an ARAM last night where between my Nidalee and Miscue's Ziggs we made 3 of the enemy team rage quit within 5 minutes. Felt bad. Well duh, that's a super-OP combo €: esp. since nobody ever builds defense in aram
Who are the best champs for ARAM anyway? I guess people with OP poke like Jayce.
But AP yi must be the most annoying, get 4 people down to half health even before the minions spawn.....
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On January 12 2013 05:34 arb wrote:Watching ZionSpartan play nidalee just makes me despise the hero even more Whats that team losing a fight at baron? Better make sure I PUSH TOP LANE AND LET MY TEAM LOSE2 PEOPLE AND BARON NP. Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:41 cLutZ wrote:On January 12 2013 01:50 Agnosthar wrote:On January 12 2013 00:51 LaNague wrote:
they made Eve even worse by allowing her to perma stealth, which means no cleverly placed wards picking up a gank.
Plus, since they "nerfed" her stealth, they made her more combat viable.
So of course they need to nerf the crap out of her now. I'm usually a big proponent of Riot balancing purely for the top level of competitive play. Whereby if you're losing to a certain champion or team-comp which isn't a problem at high skill levels, then you just need to get better, without help from the balance team. With Eve though, specifically in solo queue, her stealth mechanic is strong enough that it requires a team effort to overcome. Anything that forces that level of co-ordination is going to need major trade-offs in other areas. Before these nerfs I don't think Eve had enough compensating weaknesses. I'm glad to see them making a start to giving Eve meaningful mana costs. Also, does anyone know if the Eve change to current % health stops her being the best baron stealer in the game? I was never really sure how her ult worked with monsters. Well for 1, Eve is really strong in competitive play as well. Secondly, she not only requires coordination, she requires pink wards. Pinks are 50G more, apeice. Additionally she kinda makes sightstone, the best support item currently, far less valuable. I think, reasonably you need at least 2 pink wards during laning phase vs. Eve, even with coordination, maybe more. Thus, thats 100G+ every 3 minutes of "Eve Tax". Thus, Eve needs to be that much weaker than her counterparts to be "balanced" even in a highly coordinated enviroment. What that translates to is starting at ~ a faerie charm disadvantage, at 6 mins about a Dring, 9 ~ a chalice/Blasting, 18 ~ a NLR, ect. you really shouldnt have to nerf eve just because people need to buy pink wards, even if you nerf her people still have to buy pink wards aslong as stealths in the game
Its not about "nerfing" its about understanding that the proper balance levels for those champs needs to include a calculation of how many additional pink wards the enemy team needs to buy to maintain an even footing. It is different for each kind of stealth. Obviously Twitch and Rengar have weaker stealths, and Vayne even moreso (you really can ignore it for the most part). For instance, old Rengar's stealth was very strong, and post 6 made ganking him(for a kill) cost a pink ward if stealth was up. Now, it does not.
I'm just saying that the actual gold cost of countering stealth is an easy first step in evaluating where to start balancing a champion that has that effect.
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On January 12 2013 06:21 fishinguy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:02 Dandel Ion wrote:On January 12 2013 05:53 Seuss wrote:On January 12 2013 05:34 arb wrote:
Watching ZionSpartan play nidalee just makes me despise the hero even more
Whats that team losing a fight at baron? Better make sure I PUSH TOP LANE AND LET MY TEAM LOSE2 PEOPLE AND BARON NP. I played an ARAM last night where between my Nidalee and Miscue's Ziggs we made 3 of the enemy team rage quit within 5 minutes. Felt bad. Well duh, that's a super-OP combo €: esp. since nobody ever builds defense in aram Who are the best champs for ARAM anyway? I guess people with OP poke like Jayce. But AP yi must be the most annoying, get 4 people down to half health even before the minions spawn.....
Xerath is pretty good too, as is Ziggs or any caster with good poke. Lux and Nidalee are particularly ridiculous in ARAM. Anivia is pretty legit if you get enough mana regen. ADCs have to have a skill that hits multiple enemies consistently to be effective so Corki, Ezreal, Sivir, and Cait are pretty good. Pantheon and TF are pretty good as well if they start getting fed. Talon snowballs pretty hard in ARAM.
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EPT
