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United States23745 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:09 OutlaW- wrote:
I haven't been thinking about it back then. I'm only really starting to think about the game recently. I guess I just never realized how bad it was. Blizzard balances starcraft really well, in comparison. And Dota 2 is much more nicely balanced, too, IMO. They basically balance strong, ''game-changing/breaking mechanics'' with other ''game-changing/breaking mechanics''. I don't want to start a league x dota discussion, obviously there are reasons why I'm playing league instead of dota. I just wish Riot took a more long-term, cautious and well thought out way of balancing.
That's the problem though, it's a matter of opinion. I personally detest the OP balancing out OP model that Dota 2 uses. I don't care if I have a move that can stun for 4 seconds and does massive damage if I have to deal with the opponent having a global silence, that's just not fun to me. I agree Riot suffers from knee-jerk reaction nerfs, but it's clear they have adopted the model for balance where they make things "weak" to compensate instead of making everything overly strong and I don't foresee them changing that anytime soon.
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Baa?21248 Posts
On January 04 2013 22:01 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 20:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 04 2013 19:47 sob3k wrote:
So after playing about 10 Ziggs games and got the hang of him, my conclusion is that you need an amumu on your team and then you just win.
just carried a 4v5 while going 20-5 with an amumu who clearly hadn't jungled since S2 and never built any machete items. Luckily his R finger was still functional.
honestly though, without some sort of combo for teamfights he is pretty meh, but with one very strong. His W REALLY needs a QOL buff removing the cast time, it would make playing him SO much smoother and open up a ton of actual playmaking opportunities.
I tried going chalice, and just going tear. You cant really just go tear, you dont have enough mana to charge it fast. Going both is alright in a more passive lane, archangels is really good item and you get a ton of AP later. I don't think you really have an option of not going chalice, its too core. i play a shitton of ziggs and i never get chalice @@ yes combos make ziggs infinitely better, any huge aoe initiate is pretty cool (malphite sona etc) What do you build? I guess if you are guaranteed every blue you could go just tear but I never get blues so I play as if they are a nice bonus. Conserving mana is just not playing ziggs to his potential IMO, use that harass and push power and roam/take wraiths and fling shit everywhere. Lich is actually pretty sick lategame, faaaaat nukes with passive.
2 rings (or 1), hat, lich or void depending on mr, then the other one, then hourglass
just use your stuff smartly and know when to go back, you can still push and harass and still not need to build a dedicated mana item tbh, you can do it without an item, and if you do it smartly, you can live with the 2-3 minute downtime between blues, mana pool from lich helps too
losing a blue hurts, but even if you had a mana item, losing a blue still sucks, and it cuts down your dmg too much
i play 5s a lot more than soloq, so yes i get most blues guaranteed, but i also build the same way in solo q...maybe i play a bit differently but w\e
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On January 05 2013 04:58 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 02:09 OutlaW- wrote:
I haven't been thinking about it back then. I'm only really starting to think about the game recently. I guess I just never realized how bad it was. Blizzard balances starcraft really well, in comparison. And Dota 2 is much more nicely balanced, too, IMO. They basically balance strong, ''game-changing/breaking mechanics'' with other ''game-changing/breaking mechanics''. I don't want to start a league x dota discussion, obviously there are reasons why I'm playing league instead of dota. I just wish Riot took a more long-term, cautious and well thought out way of balancing. That's the problem though, it's a matter of opinion. I personally detest the OP balancing out OP model that Dota 2 uses. I don't care if I have a move that can stun for 4 seconds and does massive damage if I have to deal with the opponent having a global silence, that's just not fun to me. I agree Riot suffers from knee-jerk reaction nerfs, but it's clear they have adopted the model for balance where they make things "weak" to compensate instead of making everything overly strong and I don't foresee them changing that anytime soon.
DoTA 2's winrates actually have a huge variance compared to that of LoL's(Warrunner >60%). It's probably just to do more with how the game is designed than how the champions/heros are.
LoL may not be as balanced at the tournament level but nerfs have been pretty harsh to the popular picks: ez, rengar, diana, and now lee.
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On January 05 2013 04:41 Ketara wrote:
Do not understand Liandry on Kayle at all. How odd.
Synergizes with Kayle Q I guess. Extra DoT because of slow and then more extra DoT because Q
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On January 05 2013 05:11 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 04:41 Ketara wrote:
Do not understand Liandry on Kayle at all. How odd. Synergizes with Kayle Q I guess. Extra DoT because of slow and then more extra DoT because Q
It applies on all targets hit by the E splash because that's spell damage and not on hit but it's still pretty shit.
Simply because you do more with runaan's, bork, rageblade, etc...
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runaan's doesn't apply the splash to her side bolts because her E is weird and special-case-y
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On January 05 2013 05:18 thenexusp wrote:
runaan's doesn't apply the splash to her side bolts because her E is weird and special-case-y
But it applies the 60 damage from her E and the splash to the primary target. Which is still more damage than an adult Liandry's will ever reach.
The splash is spell damage.
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On January 05 2013 04:18 kongoline wrote:
i dont mind lee nerfs if they wont actually destroy him, look at gragas few nerfs and he became tier4 nobody plays him and he has one of the lowest winrates in the game, why play champion who relays on hard snowballing to stay relevant through out the game when you can play something safe which outscales/outshines him in every way
i will fucking hate riot if they do the same to lee the most fun and enjoyable champion to play
do people still give a shit about Tier lists?
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On January 05 2013 05:06 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 22:01 sob3k wrote:On January 04 2013 20:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On January 04 2013 19:47 sob3k wrote:
So after playing about 10 Ziggs games and got the hang of him, my conclusion is that you need an amumu on your team and then you just win.
just carried a 4v5 while going 20-5 with an amumu who clearly hadn't jungled since S2 and never built any machete items. Luckily his R finger was still functional.
honestly though, without some sort of combo for teamfights he is pretty meh, but with one very strong. His W REALLY needs a QOL buff removing the cast time, it would make playing him SO much smoother and open up a ton of actual playmaking opportunities.
I tried going chalice, and just going tear. You cant really just go tear, you dont have enough mana to charge it fast. Going both is alright in a more passive lane, archangels is really good item and you get a ton of AP later. I don't think you really have an option of not going chalice, its too core. i play a shitton of ziggs and i never get chalice @@ yes combos make ziggs infinitely better, any huge aoe initiate is pretty cool (malphite sona etc) What do you build? I guess if you are guaranteed every blue you could go just tear but I never get blues so I play as if they are a nice bonus. Conserving mana is just not playing ziggs to his potential IMO, use that harass and push power and roam/take wraiths and fling shit everywhere. Lich is actually pretty sick lategame, faaaaat nukes with passive. 2 rings (or 1), hat, lich or void depending on mr, then the other one, then hourglass just use your stuff smartly and know when to go back, you can still push and harass and still not need to build a dedicated mana item tbh, you can do it without an item, and if you do it smartly, you can live with the 2-3 minute downtime between blues, mana pool from lich helps too losing a blue hurts, but even if you had a mana item, losing a blue still sucks, and it cuts down your dmg too much i play 5s a lot more than soloq, so yes i get most blues guaranteed, but i also build the same way in solo q...maybe i play a bit differently but w\e
I have never gotten a 2nd blue when playing with sheep.
Or my wraith camp for that matter.
Or my wolf camp.
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On January 05 2013 03:18 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 03:14 Shikyo wrote:
About the Lee Sin nerfs, they seem directed at Lee Sin roflstomping toplane by sustaining through everything, as I guess with the overall greatly nerfed sustain from items, his innate sustain and durability are much stronger in proportion.
Also I don't really think those nerfs destroy him. The E nerf IMO is quite good, 30% AoE slow is really strong for his lvl 2 ganks. Maybe they could have handled the W differently but that's still one of the best skills in the game. Not once you entirely remove the armor component. Then it's just a neat little repositioning tool/weak shield.
Perhaps one problem with Lee is he has been balanced for a certain level of skill, and players seem to be exceeding that level now. The same seemed apparent at S2 championships when some traditionally "hard" champs like Ori and Anivia were being played all the time by the elite midlane champs. Those two only avoided the nerfbat because S3 came along and coughed up the midlane meta, and its really hard for the bird now.
On January 05 2013 04:58 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 02:09 OutlaW- wrote:
I haven't been thinking about it back then. I'm only really starting to think about the game recently. I guess I just never realized how bad it was. Blizzard balances starcraft really well, in comparison. And Dota 2 is much more nicely balanced, too, IMO. They basically balance strong, ''game-changing/breaking mechanics'' with other ''game-changing/breaking mechanics''. I don't want to start a league x dota discussion, obviously there are reasons why I'm playing league instead of dota. I just wish Riot took a more long-term, cautious and well thought out way of balancing. That's the problem though, it's a matter of opinion. I personally detest the OP balancing out OP model that Dota 2 uses. I don't care if I have a move that can stun for 4 seconds and does massive damage if I have to deal with the opponent having a global silence, that's just not fun to me. I agree Riot suffers from knee-jerk reaction nerfs, but it's clear they have adopted the model for balance where they make things "weak" to compensate instead of making everything overly strong and I don't foresee them changing that anytime soon.
I don't like Op-for-op if its on a long cooldown. That is one thing I really don't like about summoner spells and "super ults" like shen ult that have ungodly cooldowns. They can sometimes be TOO determinative.
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I think it's because people keep building Gragas AP, I think that full AD -> Tank Gragas is a really powerful counterpick in certain situations
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What were the Lee nerfs that were mentioned here earlier? I missed it
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United States37500 Posts
On January 05 2013 05:33 MooMooMugi wrote:
What were the Lee nerfs that were mentioned here earlier? I missed it
No armor bonus on Safeguard.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 05 2013 05:35 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 05:33 MooMooMugi wrote:
What were the Lee nerfs that were mentioned here earlier? I missed it No armor bonus on Safeguard.
Also no longer restores energy when the shield is broken.
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On January 05 2013 05:31 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 03:18 Zdrastochye wrote:On January 05 2013 03:14 Shikyo wrote:
About the Lee Sin nerfs, they seem directed at Lee Sin roflstomping toplane by sustaining through everything, as I guess with the overall greatly nerfed sustain from items, his innate sustain and durability are much stronger in proportion.
Also I don't really think those nerfs destroy him. The E nerf IMO is quite good, 30% AoE slow is really strong for his lvl 2 ganks. Maybe they could have handled the W differently but that's still one of the best skills in the game. Not once you entirely remove the armor component. Then it's just a neat little repositioning tool/weak shield. Perhaps one problem with Lee is he has been balanced for a certain level of skill, and players seem to be exceeding that level now. The same seemed apparent at S2 championships when some traditionally "hard" champs like Ori and Anivia were being played all the time by the elite midlane champs. Those two only avoided the nerfbat because S3 came along and coughed up the midlane meta, and its really hard for the bird now. Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 04:58 onlywonderboy wrote:On January 05 2013 02:09 OutlaW- wrote:
I haven't been thinking about it back then. I'm only really starting to think about the game recently. I guess I just never realized how bad it was. Blizzard balances starcraft really well, in comparison. And Dota 2 is much more nicely balanced, too, IMO. They basically balance strong, ''game-changing/breaking mechanics'' with other ''game-changing/breaking mechanics''. I don't want to start a league x dota discussion, obviously there are reasons why I'm playing league instead of dota. I just wish Riot took a more long-term, cautious and well thought out way of balancing. That's the problem though, it's a matter of opinion. I personally detest the OP balancing out OP model that Dota 2 uses. I don't care if I have a move that can stun for 4 seconds and does massive damage if I have to deal with the opponent having a global silence, that's just not fun to me. I agree Riot suffers from knee-jerk reaction nerfs, but it's clear they have adopted the model for balance where they make things "weak" to compensate instead of making everything overly strong and I don't foresee them changing that anytime soon. I don't like Op-for-op if its on a long cooldown. That is one thing I really don't like about summoner spells and "super ults" like shen ult that have ungodly cooldowns. They can sometimes be TOO determinative.
I dont think shen ults and summoner spells compare to some of the shit in Dota2
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On January 05 2013 05:06 obesechicken13 wrote:
DoTA 2's winrates actually have a huge variance compared to that of LoL's(Warrunner >60%). It's probably just to do more with how the game is designed than how the champions/heros are.
LoL may not be as balanced at the tournament level but nerfs have been pretty harsh to the popular picks: ez, rengar, diana, and now lee.
where are these winrates?
https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning
they match up closely with lolking's winrates
http://www.lolking.net/champions/
a lot of the low win rate dota/lol heroes are still completely viable competitive picks.
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United States47024 Posts
The only real potential outliers in DotaBuff's data are Drow and Centaur, which are known balance issues due to recent remakes (and hence are not enabled in competitive play). Otherwise winrates for both games are within similar ranges.
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These lists are bullshit though.
From Lolking: "Percentages are based on weekly data sets, all regions and leagues."
Invoker is super low on the dota list because scrubs can't press buttons. However, we all know he's extremely strong in high level play.
I know riot cares about low elo, but TL sure doesn't, and shouldn't.
I do not believe balancing for low denominations is a wise strategy. You should balance for (relatively) higher level play. This gives low levels something to admire and aspire towards without diminishing higher level options.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 05 2013 05:51 Phunkapotamus wrote:
These lists are bullshit though.
From Lolking: "Percentages are based on weekly data sets, all regions and leagues."
Invoker is super low on the dota list because scrubs can't press buttons. However, we all know he's extremely strong in high level play.
I know riot cares about low elo, but TL sure doesn't, and shouldn't.
I do not believe balancing for low denominations is a wise strategy. You should balance for (relatively) higher level play. This gives low levels something to admire and aspire to.
Invoker's not even that good in high level play anymore after his most recent nerfs lol. Good situationally, but have to pick him into good matchups, otherwise he gets crushed.
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On January 05 2013 05:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 05:51 Phunkapotamus wrote:
These lists are bullshit though.
From Lolking: "Percentages are based on weekly data sets, all regions and leagues."
Invoker is super low on the dota list because scrubs can't press buttons. However, we all know he's extremely strong in high level play.
I know riot cares about low elo, but TL sure doesn't, and shouldn't.
I do not believe balancing for low denominations is a wise strategy. You should balance for (relatively) higher level play. This gives low levels something to admire and aspire to. Invoker's not even that good in high level play anymore after his most recent nerfs lol. Good situationally, but have to pick him into good matchups, otherwise he gets crushed.
Ah, then I'm outdated with Dota2. My point still stands from my edited post, so I'll put it here:
I do not believe balancing for low denominations is a wise strategy. You should balance for (relatively) higher level play. This gives low levels something to admire and aspire towards- without diminishing higher level options.
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EPT
