EPTI don't know how you ever thought Riot was better at handling balance than they are. If anything they're much better about it than they were a year or more ago.
[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 281
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
I don't know how you ever thought Riot was better at handling balance than they are. If anything they're much better about it than they were a year or more ago. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
 But yeah, they can be pretty knee-jerky sometimes. I mean, sometimes it's needed, but I think patches should be longer between so people can invent counterplay. | ||
Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
btw. clg.eu already tagged as eg | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
It's kind of funny--I think DotA's long patch cycles more or less evolved out of necessity due to the nature of Warcraft 3 custom maps (you can't release new versions of a map every 2 weeks and expect Battle.Net customs to actually swap over to the new versions that quickly), rather than any explicit choice on the part of the map makers. | ||
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
Don't really understand how people can think that he's broken, while 90% of the players I see miss their Qs. Is really EVERY Lee you see in your games getting fed and crushing face left and right? Because my from my experience most Lee Jungler's can pull of 1,2 nice ganks early game but can't snowball it all, laning Lees go mostly even and eventually outscaled by the enemy Irelia, Jax, Vlad or Shen. Only once in every 30 games there is maybe that one Diamondprox esque Lee Sin that ganks/counterganks/counterjungles like a boss and crushes my soul and honestly ever since the Froggen Lee Mid Hypetrain I haven't seen an impressive Lee mid once @1800-2000 Elo from reddit/sc2, apparently KIA is thinking about sponsoring LG-IM, r/sc got excited but apparently they are more interested in the LoL team of LG-IM :D http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/15xx7l/incredible_miracle_to_be_sponsored_by_kia/ Seems like Startale and LG-IM will be the only oldschool sc2 teams that will survive in the longrun and everyone else gotta bow down to bigbrother kespa. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + If a pro shadow fiend raped you in dota, you wouldn't cry for SF nerfs. You'd acknowledge that he's a really good player (because he takes a lot of skill and that's clear to everyone who has ever played him. This is less the case for Lee, who, albeit harder than most league champions, is still fairly easy to play in comparison) and that you just witnessed something amazing. On January 05 2013 02:22 Requizen wrote: "Don't nerf him because bad players suck with him" isn't good reasoning. I could say that Amumu isn't OP or worth a ban because most of the ones I see only hit one person with their ult, miss Qs, and waste all their mana, but that doesn't make it true. But you would nerf him because good players are good with him? Going with that reasoning, you would only balance things for the highest level of play? If that's the case (and I hope it is, because I believe that competitive games need to be only balanced around the professionals and the worse players have to pick up the scraps), why are you letting your experience with him get involved in your judgement at all? The only thing we should be looking at is tournament games. If a champion (say, WW) is really good in lower levels of play because he's really easy to do well with him, should we nerf him? We should only look at his viability in tournaments. Do you think that balancing the game around bad players, too, is good? I would really like to hear your reasons. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:16 AsnSensation wrote: Well it's still only PBE maybe Riot will realize how stupid the proposed nerf is :D Don't really understand how people can think that he's broken, while 90% of the players I see miss their Qs. Is really EVERY Lee you see in your games getting fed and crushing face left and right? Because my from my experience most Lee Jungler's can pull of 1,2 nice ganks early game but can't snowball it all, laning Lees go mostly even and eventually outscaled by the enemy Irelia, Jax, Vlad or Shen. Only once in every 30 games there is maybe that one Diamondprox esque Lee Sin that ganks/counterganks/counterjungles like a boss and crushes my soul and honestly ever since the Froggen Lee Mid Hypetrain I haven't seen an impressive Lee mid once @1800-2000 Elo "Don't nerf him because bad players suck with him" isn't good reasoning. I could say that Amumu isn't OP or worth a ban because most of the ones I see only hit one person with their ult, miss Qs, and waste all their mana, but that doesn't make it true. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:09 OutlaW- wrote: I haven't been thinking about it back then. I'm only really starting to think about the game recently. I guess I just never realized how bad it was. Blizzard balances starcraft really well, in comparison. And Dota 2 is much more nicely balanced, too, IMO. They basically balance strong, ''game-changing/breaking mechanics'' with other ''game-changing/breaking mechanics''. I don't want to start a league x dota discussion, obviously there are reasons why I'm playing league instead of dota. I just wish Riot took a more long-term, cautious and well thought out way of balancing. Ask any blizzard gamer about the thought of balance in various blizzard games and they'll complain about it. Riot is terrible at balance, blizzard is terrible at balance everyone is bad at balance. At least according to the people who play their games. Biases effect peoples judgement. I do however think long term patch cycles can have merit but so does the short term tweaking that riot uses. Both have advantages and disadvantages. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
Even when TvZ was heavily favored to Zerg, I knew that if I just played a bit better I still could have won those games. That was all there was to it. Why should I be disappointed with the developers if I haven't reached the top yet? The thing I should be disappointed with is myself. I played sc2 for a decently long time and I peaked at high masters, and I can say with a straight look on my face that I was satisfied with how they handled the game. Maybe it's just much easier to balance a 1v1, RTS game than it is a moba game, but that's how it is. In my 4 years of playing dota, I also don't remember being disappointed with icefrog. This may have to do with the game-design as well (and not just balance). I guess you can call me biased. Maybe I am biased. But after playing all three games I confidently say that Riot's balancing is the worst. I still like League the most out of the three, which is why I'm going to such lengths to discuss this. I apologize again for sounding bitter. I guess I'm like the guy who doesn't understand relationships and constantly reminds my friends of their mistakes so that they can improve themselves. I understand if it can get annoying. | ||
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Lounge
537 Posts
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AsnSensation
Germany24009 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:22 Requizen wrote: "Don't nerf him because bad players suck with him" isn't good reasoning. I could say that Amumu isn't OP or worth a ban because most of the ones I see only hit one person with their ult, miss Qs, and waste all their mana, but that doesn't make it true. Why is it bad reasoning? If everyone played lee Sin like Diamondprox or Froggen, then he'd probably need a nerf. 1. Amumu is not OP in my opinion, but the proposed nerf on his ult is probably a good first step to balance him for low Elo games where people like to group up in small chokes against AOE comps. 2. please don't argue playing Amumu post6/lategame is as hard as Lee Sin. 3. The type of Amumu you described is probably a 1000-1200 player and I hate to play the Elo Card, but since you are playing in that bracket, as well I severely doubt that there is a 1200 player who can make Lee Sin look op. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:34 OutlaW- wrote: I have never been disappointed with Blizzard's balancing (starcraft 2, that is) Even when TvZ was heavily favored to Zerg, I knew that if I just played a bit better I still could have won those games. That was all there was to it. Why should I be disappointed with the developers if I haven't reached the top yet? The thing I should be disappointed with is myself. I played sc2 for a decently long time and I peaked at high masters, and I can say with a straight look on my face that I was satisfied with how they handled the game. Maybe it's just much easier to balance a 1v1, RTS game than it is a moba game, but that's how it is. In my 4 years of playing dota, I also don't remember being disappointed with icefrog. This may have to do with the game-design as well (and not just balance). I guess you can call me biased. Maybe I am biased. But after playing all three games I confidently say that Riot's balancing is the worst. I still like League the most out of the three, which is why I'm going to such lengths to discuss this. I apologize again for sounding bitter. I guess I'm like the guy who doesn't understand relationships and constantly reminds my friends of their mistakes so that they can improve themselves. I understand if it can get annoying. It's fine I understand where you are coming from and I generally agree with you, but you are kind of the minority in the respect to thoughts on balance of things like sc2(I can't speak to Dota's) Even are most esteemed TL has pages on pages of posts that can be summed up as "Balance whine"(most of them found in the banned list thankfully) Honestly, I'd be curious to see how a more lengthy time between balancing played out but I am unsure it would necessarily make the game better. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:43 AsnSensation wrote: Why is it bad reasoning? If everyone played lee Sin like Diamondprox or Froggen, then he'd probably need a nerf. 1. Amumu is not OP in my opinion, but the proposed nerf on his ult is probably a good first step to balance him for low Elo games where people like to group up in small chokes against AOE comps. 2. please don't argue playing Amumu post6/lategame is as hard as Lee Sin. 3. The type of Amumu you described is probably a 1000-1200 player and I hate to play the Elo Card, but since you are playing in that bracket, as well I severely doubt that there is a 1200 player who can make Lee Sin look op. I never said Amumu is harder to play than Lee, that's insane. And I never said anything about ELO. People can suck with champions at all levels of play, hell you can die to wolves as GP in a tournament or Shy ult into a wall and be called a "pro". Balance in LoL, as in every other game from fighters to RTS to MMOs, should be balanced around playing right, and if you play Lee right he's very very very strong. It's harder to play him right, but that shouldn't affect the balancing process. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:43 AsnSensation wrote: Why is it bad reasoning? If everyone played lee Sin like Diamondprox or Froggen, then he'd probably need a nerf. 1. Amumu is not OP in my opinion, but the proposed nerf on his ult is probably a good first step to balance him for low Elo games where people like to group up in small chokes against AOE comps. 2. please don't argue playing Amumu post6/lategame is as hard as Lee Sin. 3. The type of Amumu you described is probably a 1000-1200 player and I hate to play the Elo Card, but since you are playing in that bracket, as well I severely doubt that there is a 1200 player who can make Lee Sin look op. dude amumu is op for quite some time and its not only in "low elo" rofl listen to what pros like saint,theoddone say about him, he is common ban in high elo ie dyrius always auto bans amumu when he is fp | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
so op | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
the only time i would make balance changes would be to spice up the game if people don't want to play anymore. i never liked blizzard or riot with SC2/LoL because there's this constant need to tinker with the product before things are figured out, and it's never reached a point where people complain AND stop playing, they only complain. i also liked how they (KeSPA) balanced BW by keeping everything steady except for maps. there was just enough tinkering to give fresh games based on the different maps, but there were relatively minor changes; unit properties and abilities were never altered after what was it, 1.07? 1.12? one of the things i'm curious about is soraka. i know she got nerfs, but i feel like the reason that she's so weak and hardly played is because she's fallen out of the meta, as both solo q and tourney play seem to have fallen away from sustain and go for either more aggressive supports or supports with strong cc. that feels more like a result of people's shifting mentality with the game more than tinkering with abilities. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 05 2013 02:45 Parnage wrote: It's fine I understand where you are coming from and I generally agree with you, but you are kind of the minority in the respect to thoughts on balance of things like sc2(I can't speak to Dota's) Even are most esteemed TL has pages on pages of posts that can be summed up as "Balance whine"(most of them found in the banned list thankfully) Honestly, I'd be curious to see how a more lengthy time between balancing played out but I am unsure it would necessarily make the game better. "Amount of balance whine" is probably the worst possible metric you could have chosen to use, lol | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
sure it is hard to use lee sin to his full potential, but it is not hard to do well with him, seen by his huge popularity and his amazing kda across the boards. same with amumu, super easy to play and highest winrate zz. these are the kind of champs that get nerfed. | ||
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