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On January 05 2013 01:22 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:08 OutlaW- wrote:
Destroying one of the most fun, rewarding and high skillcap heroes in the game just so that you won't get the occasional baddie that doesn't quite know how to play him?
This. This is what's wrong with the community. The correct way to handle the situation is to release another champion who rivals Lee, not nerf him. Riot is, unfortunately, yet again, showing that they don't know how to make this game fun. Riot legitimately doesn't know how else to balance their game other than just nerfing problems to keep the community happy. Remember that most people are very bad at this game, and many people being happy means more money for riot.
I apologise if I sound bitter. I still love this game but I'm sad that Riot keeps on making these decisions. because a random guy who doesn't like lee sin is responsible for the riots decision? I think they nerfed him because of how popular/strong in top level play he was in almost any lane. He wins almost all lanes and is one of the strongest gankers in the game, he got a slight nerf to his W and E and it's like AMG UNVIABLE HERO wat
You're just mad because you can't play him. hahaha
Anyway, I never said in my post that he's not viable. Just because a hero is popular in top level play does not mean he needs nerfs. Some heroes just do better at the highest level of play. Doesn't mean they need nerfs. Nobody plays top lee sin (except s0az). Lee mid is quite weak because you fall off pretty badly. Froggen had like 53% winrate or something with like 100+ games played. So you saying that Lee is getting nerfed because of his laning is untrue. He's getting nerfed because of his jungle.
Also, what a random guy says isn't as irrelevant as you might think. It's precisely because I don't know that person that I can say that his opinion is a ''general'' one. I also visit other boards that frequently hate on lee sin. Most of them are bad.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 05 2013 01:24 Requizen wrote:
Sorry if I sound bitter, but fuck Lee. I've hated him since I started playing. Here's a champ who has nearly every tool in the game, but it's ok because "he's hard to play".
I said it the last time Lee was nerfed, and I'll say it again: the problem with this game isn't that Lee is too strong, the problem is that every other champ isn't as awesome as he is.
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That's exactly what I wanted to say. Thanks for wording things better than me.
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On January 05 2013 01:26 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:22 Slayer91 wrote:On January 05 2013 01:08 OutlaW- wrote:
Destroying one of the most fun, rewarding and high skillcap heroes in the game just so that you won't get the occasional baddie that doesn't quite know how to play him?
This. This is what's wrong with the community. The correct way to handle the situation is to release another champion who rivals Lee, not nerf him. Riot is, unfortunately, yet again, showing that they don't know how to make this game fun. Riot legitimately doesn't know how else to balance their game other than just nerfing problems to keep the community happy. Remember that most people are very bad at this game, and many people being happy means more money for riot.
I apologise if I sound bitter. I still love this game but I'm sad that Riot keeps on making these decisions. because a random guy who doesn't like lee sin is responsible for the riots decision? I think they nerfed him because of how popular/strong in top level play he was in almost any lane. He wins almost all lanes and is one of the strongest gankers in the game, he got a slight nerf to his W and E and it's like AMG UNVIABLE HERO wat You're just mad because you can't play him. hahaha Anyway, I never said in my post that he's not viable. Just because a hero is popular in top level play does not mean he needs nerfs. Some heroes just do better at the highest level of play. Doesn't mean they need nerfs. Nobody plays top lee sin (except s0az). Lee mid is quite weak because you fall off pretty badly. Froggen had like 53% winrate or something with like 100+ games played. So you saying that Lee is getting nerfed because of his laning is untrue. He's getting nerfed because of his jungle. Also, what a random guy says isn't as irrelevant as you might think. It's precisely because I don't know that person that I can say that his opinion is a ''general'' one. I also visit other boards that frequently hate on lee sin. Most of them are bad.
99.9% of the commuity is bad so anyone who says anything is bad. Completely irrelevant point.
I'm fine with lee sin. He's strong, but he's not broken. Riot decides he's too slightly too strong and that's pretty decently backed up with his stats across all levels I would guess. Froggen maybe had a poor solo queue win rate with him but in tournaments it was much better when his team build and played around it.
I can't play like 80 other champions as well, they get nerfed all the time, just because you like this hero doesn't mean everyone is in some kind of mad conspiracy.
The change doesn't change his "awesomeness" level, it just changed some numbers.
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You're trying really hard to anger me. None of what you're saying is making any sense. I will not continue this discussion.
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None of what you're saying makes sense. Blaming random guys on general forum for small nerfs to champions on at the top tier of competitive and casual play. What?
I don't try to anger anyone, if your my points make you angry that's on your end, not mine.
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I'm glad he will get nerfed, a hero that can play all possible lane is not viable. He was crushing top, mid and good jungler. I always ban him because of the fact that he can play everywhere and snowball like crazy.
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On January 05 2013 01:32 Slayer91 wrote:
*cough* malphite *cough*
I ban him too.
I ban him so much that I don't even remember he fucking exist.
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Should i watch EU S3 Online Qualifiers?
I've never watched season qualifiers before.
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On January 05 2013 01:31 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm glad he will get nerfed, a hero that can play all possible lane is not viable. He was crushing top, mid and good jungler. I always ban him because of the fact that he can play everywhere and snowball like crazy.
Isn't that pretty much the exact definiton of being viable? 
Also, I think people overestimated him top a little. There's a fair amount of lanes that crush him if they know how to avoid his early game.
And I think wat OutlaW was trying to say is that it would be a lot better for the game to balance fire with fire, basically. If Lee seems to be a little bit too much on the good side, make everyone else more fun and strong, too. That's a lot to ask for, but I think that's his basic sentiment - basically, the ''too much OP? Better introduce more OPness to the game'' approach DotA seems to have to an outsider like me.
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On January 05 2013 01:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:24 Requizen wrote:
Sorry if I sound bitter, but fuck Lee. I've hated him since I started playing. Here's a champ who has nearly every tool in the game, but it's ok because "he's hard to play". I said it the last time Lee was nerfed, and I'll say it again: the problem with this game isn't that Lee is too strong, the problem is that every other champ isn't as awesome as he is.
Any champ that heals around 30% of his health on a single creep wave is too fucking boring to be awesome.
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On January 05 2013 01:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:24 Requizen wrote:
Sorry if I sound bitter, but fuck Lee. I've hated him since I started playing. Here's a champ who has nearly every tool in the game, but it's ok because "he's hard to play". I said it the last time Lee was nerfed, and I'll say it again: the problem with this game isn't that Lee is too strong, the problem is that every other champ isn't as awesome as he is.
That's kind of the thing. I feel like his design was made for a game where other champs have as much in their kits as his does, but instead you get a lot of heroes that have one or two strong things in their kits and at least one or a big weakness that can be exploited, while Lee mostly doesn't. And his late game isn't nearly as bad as people say it is in my opinion, only weak in the same way that it is for other non-pure-tank melees.
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On January 05 2013 01:36 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:31 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm glad he will get nerfed, a hero that can play all possible lane is not viable. He was crushing top, mid and good jungler. I always ban him because of the fact that he can play everywhere and snowball like crazy. Isn't that pretty much the exact definiton of being viable? Also, I think people overestimated him top a little. There's a fair amount of lanes that crush him if they know how to avoid his early game.
Here is the thing, if all champion were as "viable" as him, it would be great, but it's not the case, so he gives a huge advantage.
Also, most player don't understand that they need to avoid his early, so they feed, and then he is a fucking ninja jumping everywhere and one shoting shit.
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Covering the badness of players with balance shouldn't be done in a competitive game. Much less the biggest e-sport.
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On January 05 2013 01:38 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:26 TheYango wrote:On January 05 2013 01:24 Requizen wrote:
Sorry if I sound bitter, but fuck Lee. I've hated him since I started playing. Here's a champ who has nearly every tool in the game, but it's ok because "he's hard to play". I said it the last time Lee was nerfed, and I'll say it again: the problem with this game isn't that Lee is too strong, the problem is that every other champ isn't as awesome as he is. And his late game isn't nearly as bad as people say it is in my opinion, only weak in the same way that it is for other non-pure-tank melees.
That's where I disagree. He's a great peeler, but that's about it, in my opinion. Irelia, Jax, Riven, Jarvan, Talon, Khazix, Zed and a bunch of other folks would really like a word with you about their late game damage output.
Maybe I just got your post wrong and you said late game tank Lee is good, which it is. Iunno.
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United States47024 Posts
Personally, I'm just surprised that Riot can nerf things with such conviction so early into the S3 patch's life cycle.
There's obvious stuff that's out of whack that had to change like Black Cleaver, but by and large, I think anything anyone thinks is OP right now is more or less not indicative of how the game will be in 3-4 months, regardless of whether there were ANY patch changes, simply because the scale of the S3 patch makes it an impossibility to judge things like this properly yet.
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On January 05 2013 01:41 OutlaW- wrote:
Covering the badness of players with balance shouldn't be done in a competitive game. Much less the biggest e-sport.
He wouldn't have been nerfed if he magically sucked at the top level, but he doesn't. He's strong there and riot just said we'll give a little nerf to his energy regain and armour to make his laning phase more beatable and it doesn't affect THAT much else aside from missing the energy gain sometimes when you hop into a teamfight.
If I were to guess, it's that this lee nerf was in the pipes for a few months and they just waited for S3 to see if anything made him worse and not wanting to overnerf.
Prolly same for amumu, fucker is so broken hooly shit. Makes lee seem gimmicky
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On January 05 2013 01:42 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 01:38 Requizen wrote:On January 05 2013 01:26 TheYango wrote:On January 05 2013 01:24 Requizen wrote:
Sorry if I sound bitter, but fuck Lee. I've hated him since I started playing. Here's a champ who has nearly every tool in the game, but it's ok because "he's hard to play". I said it the last time Lee was nerfed, and I'll say it again: the problem with this game isn't that Lee is too strong, the problem is that every other champ isn't as awesome as he is. And his late game isn't nearly as bad as people say it is in my opinion, only weak in the same way that it is for other non-pure-tank melees. That's where I disagree. He's a great peeler, but that's about it, in my opinion. Irelia, Jax, Riven, Jarvan, Talon, Khazix, Zed and a bunch of other folks would really like a word with you about their late game damage output. Maybe I just got your post wrong and you said late game tank Lee is good, which it is. Iunno.
It is, but I think standard late game Lee is good as well. You'll find few champs with nearly as good mobility, and his ability to get to and execute squishies doesn't really fall off, he just loses the ability to fight tanks/bruisers for the most part.
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Amumu is definitely much stronger than lee right now.
But the main point that I wanted to convey was my growing lack of trust for Riot's balancing capabilities.
League players haven't been taught how to adapt. Why? Because they make Riot adapt the game for them, and Riot does that. Everything that is strong will eventually be nerfed into mediocrity. You notice something special about the game and discover something strong? Nerfed in 1-2 patches. Every invention, everything that dominates will be nerfed. Riot are too scared to balance their game by creating many strong champions so they basically just nerf anything that's strong because there is no risk involved. What remains is a game whose fun potential is not fulfilled.
As yango said, wait 4 months only fixing stuff that's fundamentally broken. Let good strategies beat good strategies. Then figure out how exactly you're going to go about balancing. Basically I'm blaming Rito for being shortsighted.
To the topic of Lee, I actually agree with his nerfs, but for different reasons than most of you. People haven't abused top lane lee sin in any tournament yet, even though I think it's broken. I also think that full tank lee sin has too much damage and utility for being the tankiest motherfucker in the game. But I've never seen anyone reach that stage in any tournament either.
In my mind, Riot are nerfing him for the wrong reasons.
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EPT
