|
On December 24 2012 05:07 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 04:50 zodde wrote:On December 24 2012 04:45 EquilasH wrote:On December 24 2012 04:13 Kouda wrote:
I remember ppl theorycrafting about rammus top with pd. was hilarious. Teutonica (Slayer91) was a firm believer in Wriggle/PD/atmogs on Rammus before the nerfs/changes. And I think anyone who actually tried the build would be able to assert its viability. I never saw any theorycrafting of top Rammus though? PD is a beast item on anyone with high AD, and rammus gets AD from building tanky. Same deal with Mundo. If you get shitloads of free AD -> build attackspeed and/or crit. Generally though you're not going to build anything after the PD for damage. If it were PD IE I would agree in a heartbeat, but PD by itself probably adds about the same amount of damage as a wits end with less MR, and a slightly higher cost. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 04:11 Scip wrote:
Rammus has godlike initiation and probably the best innate survivability of all champions in the game (120 armor+mres, gl killing that LOL). Haven't tried building all that much damage, probably not the best idea unless you get fed. Most likely sunfire or zeal would be best. Alistar is definitely tankier while his ult is up. And since most Rammus don't max W there's a long period where Rammus can't tank very well.
Rammus enjoys magic pen much more, wits end has always been a better buy on him than phantom dancer. Now that haunting guise actually builds into a new item, Warmogs/wits/magic pen build on rammus is pretty schweet
|
Dunno if you remember my items effectivness calculations...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApcDmhu0hIeddFNnSWpSZmRxVzlXclVXZk8zWC1BOVE
It's a bit messy, but here is what I got so far :
Warmog makes you invest a lot in the hp5
Atma is one of the most cost efficient items once you get to 3k hp. But you need to use the crit efficiently.
Tear is crazy good with its current cost.
Zeke is very strong, the aura is pretty much FREE.
Aegis and Bulwark are not that cost effective :/
GA combine cost is nearly the passive effective cost.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 24 2012 05:37 mr_tolkien wrote:
Zeke is very strong, the aura is pretty much FREE.
Aegis and Bulwark are not that cost effective :/
You're overstating the difference between these two. When you account for the fact that Aegis/Bulwark aura have full effectiveness for all 5 team members, and the Zeke's aura only has effectiveness for 2-3 (AP and support don't use AD or Lifesteal, and it's not always the case that top and jungle do), the overall effectiveness is going to be roughly the same, even if you consider HP5 overvalued.
Also, the aura component of aura items being "free" is par for the course--it shouldn't be surprising that Zeke's is.
|
On December 24 2012 05:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 05:37 mr_tolkien wrote:
Zeke is very strong, the aura is pretty much FREE.
Aegis and Bulwark are not that cost effective :/ You're overstating the difference between these two. When you account for the fact that Aegis/Bulwark aura have full effectiveness for all 5 team members, and the Zeke's aura only has effectiveness for 2-3 (AP and support don't use AD or Lifesteal, and it's not always the case that top and jungle do), the overall effectiveness is going to be roughly the same, even if you consider HP5 overvalued.
Ranged DPS don't really use aegis aura in a well executed teamfight ! It's pretty much the same, in a full-on fight, only a few will get to use the aura effectively. And Zeke is already cost efficient by himself, NOT accounting for the 1k1g aura.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 24 2012 05:46 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 05:45 TheYango wrote:On December 24 2012 05:37 mr_tolkien wrote:
Zeke is very strong, the aura is pretty much FREE.
Aegis and Bulwark are not that cost effective :/ You're overstating the difference between these two. When you account for the fact that Aegis/Bulwark aura have full effectiveness for all 5 team members, and the Zeke's aura only has effectiveness for 2-3 (AP and support don't use AD or Lifesteal, and it's not always the case that top and jungle do), the overall effectiveness is going to be roughly the same, even if you consider HP5 overvalued. Ranged DPS don't really use aegis aura in a well executed teamfight ! It's pretty much the same, in a full-on fight, only a few will get to use the aura effectively.
It's absolutely absurd to say ranged DPS don't use Aegis aura effectively but do use lifesteal effectively. Both only have effectiveness if you take damage, lol.
On December 24 2012 05:46 mr_tolkien wrote:
And Zeke is already cost efficient by himself, NOT accounting for the 1k1g aura.
So is Aegis--the difference between a 100 gold surplus and a 2.5 gold deficit is basically splitting hairs when it comes to 2k gold items.
Bulwark falls further behind because you're paying for slot-efficiency--which is the way it should be.
|
On December 24 2012 05:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 05:46 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 24 2012 05:45 TheYango wrote:On December 24 2012 05:37 mr_tolkien wrote:
Zeke is very strong, the aura is pretty much FREE.
Aegis and Bulwark are not that cost effective :/ You're overstating the difference between these two. When you account for the fact that Aegis/Bulwark aura have full effectiveness for all 5 team members, and the Zeke's aura only has effectiveness for 2-3 (AP and support don't use AD or Lifesteal, and it's not always the case that top and jungle do), the overall effectiveness is going to be roughly the same, even if you consider HP5 overvalued. Ranged DPS don't really use aegis aura in a well executed teamfight ! It's pretty much the same, in a full-on fight, only a few will get to use the aura effectively. It's absolutely absurd to say ranged DPS don't use Aegis aura effectively but do use lifesteal effectively. Both only have effectiveness if you take damage, lol. Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 05:46 mr_tolkien wrote:
And Zeke is already cost efficient by himself, NOT accounting for the 1k1g aura. So is Aegis--the difference between a 100 gold surplus and a 2.5 gold deficit is basically splitting hairs when it comes to 2k gold items. Bulwark falls further behind because you're paying for slot-efficiency--which is the way it should be.
Removing the HP5 part from the Aegis aura, it's only 462g of resists. The aura really isn't that good, as well as the stats.
Bulwark helps your AD to not get insta nuked with 30MR, and indeed it's a good stat, but if your team uses AD well in the slightest, Zeke should be a must-buy.
|
United States47024 Posts
On December 24 2012 05:51 mr_tolkien wrote:
Removing the HP5 part from the Aegis aura, it's only 462g of resists. The aura really isn't that good, as well as the stats.
Ok, 462 gold worth of resist for 5 people is 2310 gold worth of stats. 1100 gold worth of AD+Lifesteal for 2-3 people is 2200-3300 gold worth of stats. Not even accounting for the fact that Lifesteal only outperforms HP regen at higher damage values, and that at low levels and early teamfights, Lifesteal more or less only acts as a sustain stat the same way HP5 does.
Not as big of a difference as you're making it out to be. Especially since HP5 is not a zero-value stat, even if it is overpriced.
On December 24 2012 05:51 mr_tolkien wrote:
Bulwark helps your AD to not get insta nuked with 30MR, and indeed it's a good stat, but if your team uses AD well in the slightest, Zeke should be a must-buy.
And this is different from S2 how?
You're playing this off like it's some major discovery when it's really not all that different from how it was in S2 at all.
|
|
|
United States47024 Posts
I'd argue that's simply because pub players view Zeke's as a support item and supports used the new S3 itemization as an excuse to build more selfishly, whereas the point got across that Aegis is a jungler item, and junglers still haven't realized how OP their alternatives to Aegis (e.g. Locket) are.
Pub games are more or less meaningless insofar as itemization goes at this point because most people are still just waiting for "pros" to settle on builds for them to copy.
|
so is Pantheon back in his heydays again?
|
On December 24 2012 06:08 Kenpachi wrote:
so is Pantheon back in his heydays again?
all viable season 2 ad assassins are in their heyday right now
I think khazix is a bit stronger than pantheon aside from the global, 2 characters with different playstyles but very similar moves
|
On December 24 2012 06:08 Kenpachi wrote:
so is Pantheon back in his heydays again?
Wickd didn't build BC in his last game with Panth, yet his E would melt even champions like Skarner -.-
|
Nothing comparable. Kha'Zix's teamfighting with resets is way better, and a cc can't ruin his burst the way interrupting HSS can.
Panth can't poke either, and his lane harass is arguably weaker than Kha'Zix's (isolation Q is off the charts, and he's nowhere near as mana-intensive as Panth unless you try to poke with W too much). Panth does have his strength though, and people finally realize how damn strong HSS his when you get your AD items going.
I don't really like BC+LW though because as good as it is to ensure your damage will stay relevant even in the lategame, it misses the huge power spike that BT grants him (as in the AD from a full stack BT gives him more damage than level 5 HSS base against champions, and he's able to lifesteal very well between skirmishes or even during the fights if he gets to attack low health targets for HSS' passive (see: wraiths right after a mid fight)). I'd much rather try to get BT first as in s2, and if I can't not call it a big deal, buy brutalizer, complete BT, then turn to the other sources.
I did the calculations for Talon and for ~4k in items (including a couple of dorans) LW starts outperforming BT only when they get a chainvest on top of their innate armor. Sure you can get BC, especially if you struggle and your AD carry is doing well, but from an egoistic point of view BT > BC simply because you get your additional damage now, instead of only doing more against better armored targets and when your first stacks are applied. (which means you basically "waste" HSS, your bigger nuke, just to ensure bruisers will take more damage if you hit them next).
Sure with Pantheon's role shift in the late game BC is actually very good, but considering that he's a burst caster and a lane bully, hence having his power peak during the midgame, BC+LW makes no sense to me.
^ Always been like that. HSS is up to 320 + 3.6 bonus AD on champions, it wrecks people but you have to get the full channel out of it so it's about positioning. If the enemy support is Lulu I'm not going to eat a whimsy and only get a third of my damage on a squishy, better nuke their whole team but the backline for ~600 damage, have the carries wail on them, then finish the job with my next rotation when Lulu's cc is all on cd.
|
man i was in this game against wickd... so frustrating -_- we owned bot, we even killed the fucking jungler, but when panth started to roam.... ouch.
|
Watching Chaox's A-Z marathon and TIL there is energy regen runes. Never knew.
|
Dun bother arguing aegis with Yango. He loves that item more than he will love his firstborn child.
|
On December 24 2012 06:56 Two_DoWn wrote:
Dun bother arguing aegis with Yango. He loves that item more than he will love his firstborn child.
I see :o
My calculations really made me want to see if Bruta/Zeke Panth works for the laning phase (30% CDR at 13 minutes~, some tankiness, ...), before bulding BT... Giving it a try this evening !
|
On December 24 2012 07:05 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 06:56 Two_DoWn wrote:
Dun bother arguing aegis with Yango. He loves that item more than he will love his firstborn child. I see :o My calculations really made me want to see if Bruta/Zeke Panth works for the laning phase (30% CDR at 13 minutes~, some tankiness, ...), before bulding BT... Giving it a try this evening !
Hmm, I like the idea.
I shall experiment as well.
|
On December 24 2012 04:45 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 04:13 Kouda wrote:
I remember ppl theorycrafting about rammus top with pd. was hilarious. Teutonica (Slayer91) was a firm believer in Wriggle/PD/atmogs on Rammus before the nerfs/changes. And I think anyone who actually tried the build would be able to assert its viability. I never saw any theorycrafting of top Rammus though?
Needed alot of gold to get it rolling though, i always tried it when i played Rammus but anytime i did my team seemed to feed more than usual..
|
On December 24 2012 07:24 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 07:05 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 24 2012 06:56 Two_DoWn wrote:
Dun bother arguing aegis with Yango. He loves that item more than he will love his firstborn child. I see :o My calculations really made me want to see if Bruta/Zeke Panth works for the laning phase (30% CDR at 13 minutes~, some tankiness, ...), before bulding BT... Giving it a try this evening ! Hmm, I like the idea. I shall experiment as well.
The main idea compared to the standard Bruta BT is that it would give way more ults, especially if the opponents pick an easily gankable mid (Ryze, Lux, ...). Plus the aura for the ganks, especially bottom lane.
It might work ! :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
