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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:13 thenexusp wrote: Well, as long as the BC whiners take the heat off my muramana ryze, i'll keep abusing him till he makes the top 3 list in some future week. Shhhhhhhhh <3 muramana. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:33 zer0das wrote: I was laning against a Pantheon top as Nasus and needed something like 250 armor before it felt I could lane against him without getting chunked instantly. It was pretty hilarious. how on earth would you get to 250 armor though? i mean, panth was a counter to nasus pre-patch so I'd imagine you need some heroic effort just to be able to come back into the lane | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:35 Sufficiency wrote: I think BC needs to be removed. It counters the counter, which doesn't make sense. It needs to exist in some sense. How long did we go with people just saying "don't play Talon/Panth/etc, because they'll just build armor and you'll be useless"? There has to be some level of balance where armor AND AD caster/bruiser/assassin/whatevers are both useful. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:28 sylverfyre wrote: There's a reason people are saying (complaining) the game comes down to who has more black cleavers. Panth, Talon, and friends suddenly are seeing a ridiculous surge in usage, winrate, This happened to Ezrael with no changes. Shifts in BW win rate happened with no patches. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:28 sylverfyre wrote: There's a reason people are saying (complaining) the game comes down to who has more black cleavers. Panth, Talon, and friends suddenly are seeing a ridiculous surge in usage, winrate, and more importantly, the standard counterplay (buy some armor so you dont get 100->0'd in a combo) DOESN'T WORK. A cleaver and a brutalizer will full-pen your armor, counting 5 Arpen mastery but no runes, from 55 armor. 100 Armor gets reduced to 30. And they're also getting free survivability and CDR. With a last whisper, 200 Armor gets reduced to 48 armor. That's bringing the malphites and other armor-happy people down to the armor level of AD carries late game. Just to make matters worse, if a team is stacking arpen, they synergize with each other by playing off each other's stacks. The AD carry doesn't even need a last whisper vs. 150 armor opponents, they can just mooch off cleavers or get their own cleaver (which has more stat efficiency and murders squishies straight up better / helps their AD caster murder everyone) This is what happens when you combine a great flat pen item in the game with something with a great % pen item in the game, and have them stack favorably, and then give the item 1000 gold more stats than its price. My solution so far has been "fuck armor (even GA), it doesn't work anyway, I'm buying a warmogs." "Just play an AD caster" might as well be telling people to run an AD caster jungle, mid, and top lane. Oh wait, this is already starting to happen. Yes this is unhealthy for the game in the long run. I just don't get why people can't even just wait a week for the next balance patch to go through, and while they're waiting for it either play AD casters themselves or go think of ways to counter it. With any luck, the balance changes could come with when they fix the annie/viktor thing (something that is worthy of hotfix) Also, if you read riot's preview of BC, it made it seem they intended the counterplay to it to be warmog's. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:37 greggy wrote: how on earth would you get to 250 armor though? i mean, panth was a counter to nasus pre-patch so I'd imagine you need some heroic effort just to be able to come back into the lane Well, I went flask and all pots to start and ran him out mana so I didn't fall too behind early. Still hurt like hell, but I kept within ~20 cs of him, and got a gank that helped me kill him before it started spiraling out of control. Eventually I became raidboss Nasus without Trinity Force (390 movespeed op). He only killed me once or twice, and then started avoiding me because he couldn't beat me in a prolonged fight. Edit: Also he went 1 black cleaver/last whisper, then started getting maw. Clearly his problem was not stacking enough cleavers. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:43 thenexusp wrote: Yes this is unhealthy for the game in the long run. I just don't get why people can't even just wait a week for the next balance patch to go through, and while they're waiting for it either play AD casters themselves or go think of ways to counter it. With any luck, the balance changes could come with when they fix the annie/viktor thing (something that is worthy of hotfix) Also, if you read riot's preview of BC, it made it seem they intended the counterplay to it to be warmog's. Best counter to black cleaver, is outplaying your opponent and win the game before they can stack them. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
inb4 alreadyqq'dabout/go2qqthread | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:45 Sponkz wrote: Best counter to black cleaver, is MORE BLACK CLEAVERS | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:42 obesechicken13 wrote: This happened to Ezrael with no changes. Shifts in BW win rate happened with no patches. On December 11 2012 04:43 sylverfyre wrote:+ Show Spoiler [My previous post on the cost-stat prob…] + So I wanted to really analyze why I think cleaver is OP - the item is overbudget and is completely breaking Riot's new design philosophy that tier 3 items shouldn't have so many free stats. The problem with Black Cleaver - the item is over-budget. Riot stated and executed a significant design change with S3 items - the "free stats" you get from combining items into a high-tier item went down significantly. This is reflected in most items in the game. Furthermore, they made penetration cost more, in general (reflected in runes, as well as sorc boots, haunting guise, and last whisper) Now let's look at Black Cleaver. 3000 gold, broken into: 1337 brutalizer (15 arpen, 10 CDR, 25 damage) 425 Ruby Crystal (180 health) 1138 combine cost (+25 damage, stacking armor debuff which goes up to 30% armor reduction) 1) Brutalizer is the ONLY penetration item which didn't get its penetration reduced with the S3 changes. (This is getting changed next patch, for good reason - there's no reason for it to be left out) 2 - the real problem) Black cleaver is getting a SHIT TON of free stats when you combine it. It's getting +25 AD from nowhere (value of pickaxe) AND it's getting the armor debuff which is nearly as strong as last whisper (it has advantages over last whisper in that it affects your allies, but disadvantages in that you have to stack it... until you buy 4 black cleavers.) This level of free stats when you combine an item is STRICTLY against Riot's S3 alleged item design philosophy. You're getting like 1800 gold worth of stats for only 1100. Other items, like IE, give you very little free stats now from combine - focusing most of the combine gold on the "special part" and not on raw stats. Cleaver is getting 25 AD (value: ~900 gold) AND a "special part" similar to [but stacking with] last whisper (which has a combine cost of ~900 gold.) Of course the item is OP when it is BOTH A) Stackable (not unique) and B) giving you an extremely efficient package of ALL THE THINGS that your character wants. (An AD caster pretty much wants: Armor Pen, CD, and maybe a little survivability) Stacking isn't even the ROOT of the problem - it's a side effect of an already OP item being stackable. TL;DR - why 25 free AD on cleaver? It completely breaks what Riot said they wanted Season 3 top tier items to be. Make the recipe include a pickaxe if you want to put that much AD on it, or drop the AD so that AD casters need to combine it with +AD items to get the most out of it. (I think the proposed nerf isn't going to make black cleaver a balanced item - it's just going to not be stacked and look like BC + LW instead of 2+ BCs because even the proposed nerfed cleaver is still overbudget for the above reasons. Additionally, Smash said he thought cleaver was in a good spot before they added the ruby crystal and extra AD to it - I agree with that statement. I tried it out on PBE in that state and it seemed solid.) Yeah, but this is an obvious shift due to an obviously broken item. Even ignoring the items inherent synergy with itself (both within a single one, and when stacking it) the cost doesn't match up with what you get, when Riot SPECIFICALLY wanted to reduce the overall efficiency of combined items to not be massively more efficient than smaller items (a change that affected nearly every item in the game in either cost, or stat-increases upon item combination) Even dropping the stack to 25% armor and 10 flat pen... I don't think that a flatpen + percentpen + CDR + HP + AD should exist on a single item. I think the stack should be flat, not percent. If you need percent pen to hurt armorstackers, you should be looking at last whisper, not here. No resist should be so easily brought down THIS MUCH (before champion abilities are even brought into consideration!). There's a reason that before, LW and Void staff were the only items providing percent penetration aside from the masteries. Riot says they want to scale penetration down a bit to match the fact that they're scaling armor down, but then they introduce an item that pushes penetration to incredible levels. Riot, stop making directly conflicting design decisions! Postpatch my AD casters will just tack on a LW instead of the second BC and still murder everyone. And their mothers. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:04 101toss wrote: BW is still horribly inbalanced when looking at stuff individually. However, combine all the broken elements and they happen to balance out Riot typically has kneejerk reactions so we want them to balance it (and they will, in a week) BW was balanced partially by luck, yes, but there were also mapmakers who did amazing jobs using every little broken AI or pathing quirk discovered in BW (luck) to help keep that balance. The difference in balance between iCCup maps used in tournaments and blizzard standards like BGH are enormous and didn't come about by accident. On December 13 2012 04:55 Ketara wrote: I like how LoL's "Item Discussion" forum picture is currently a black cleaver. Last I looked there were 10 Black cleaver OP threads in there too. Really representative! | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:38 Requizen wrote: It needs to exist in some sense. How long did we go with people just saying "don't play Talon/Panth/etc, because they'll just build armor and you'll be useless"? There has to be some level of balance where armor AND AD caster/bruiser/assassin/whatevers are both useful. The problem is that you are supposed to counter AD casters with armor; now Riot is saying with BC + LW you can ignore 58% of your target's armor, THEN you apply flat penetration. This makes itemizing armor essentially useless. A bigger problem is that this combo is even more effective against squishies, due to the order flat and % penetration is applied. Previously, getting flat or % penetration is a trade-off between greater power on squishies or greater power on tanks. Now it's brainless - getting BC + LW will greatly increase your damage in any situation. In S2 I played Cassiopeia vs Talon many times because she was my choice of counter against him. I can get 200 armor and grossly out-trade him. After he gets LW, however, he will still do some damage on me, but he invests significant amount of gold to counter me and his roams will be weaker against my teammates who are less armored. I think BC can be saved, but it needs major rework. You can't make an item that provides % reduction and flat penetration on the same item (not to mention all the other good stats on it), it's way too powerful in any situation against any kinds of targets. I think BC either needs the % reduction removed and switched with something else that counters armor stacking (say dealing physical damage does 25% of the target's armor as true damage, with a 2 seconds cooldown), or have its recipe changed so it doesn't have the flat penetration (say build it out of pickaxe and ruby crystal instead, but then it's way too similar to LW). | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
I've had good success with AP Sion vs Pantheon. I got shit on by a LeBlanc when I tried to play Talon mid (ranged silence > gapclosing silence). Cho mid also works, though I cheated and took armor yellows and quints and blues and only mpen reds, and then started cloth 5. You then proceed to stand in the creep wave and scream in their face repeatedly while shoving the wave into their tower, and never let them build up to black cleaver. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
BW ended up being balanced, but it was helped by the fact that the designers weren't wanting to constantly add content to the game. (Map balance was a big deal, too.) Compound this that Riot wants their game to be at least moderately balanced at all levels of play, which is hard to say about BW (which was balanced at the top level, but even mid-iccup level play tends to favor some races more than other, for example PVT) Kespa also balanced it through map design - something LoL is trying to do a little bit of with their opening of the riverpaths next to baron and dragon. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
Though I am a little flabbergasted as to why they're dropping the armor pen/cost efficiency in addition to making everything unique. I mean hell, Deathcap and Infinity Edge would be broken if they stacked (and IE was changed to +50% crit damage). A solitary Black Cleaver would probably be alright, or at least non-broken enough to warrant a patch or two of testing. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On December 13 2012 05:14 TheYango wrote: I still think the decision to swap the flat/% pen order was ill-conceived. Possibly. It seemed like it existed to specifically keep ridiculous shit like this from happening. Now they go from that to not only empowering the combination of penetration but also giving us an item with both. What were they thinking? | ||
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