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On December 13 2012 05:14 TheYango wrote:
I still think the decision to swap the flat/% pen order was ill-conceived.
That's also a problem, but I am willing to let it slide due to the flat pen numbers nerf. I believe you can work out that the total amount of penetration after LW/VS didn't actually change that much. Also, the % penetration items are very gold inefficient on AD/AP and they are only justified for their cost if the target's armor/MR is high. They also do not provide anything other than % pen and AD/AP.
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On December 13 2012 05:17 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 05:14 TheYango wrote:
I still think the decision to swap the flat/% pen order was ill-conceived. That's also a problem, but I am willing to let it slide due to the flat pen numbers nerf. I believe you can work out that the total amount of penetration after LW/VS didn't actually change that much. Also, the % penetration items are very gold inefficient on AD/AP and they are only justified for their cost if the target's armor/MR is high. They also do not provide anything other than % pen and AD/AP.
Yeah, this is basically showcasing all my complaints about cleaver. Last whisper is a specialized item to handle armor-stacking. Cleaver gives you the "special" thing about Last Whisper (a boatload of % pen) on an item which is versatile and very cost-efficient in its stats (including the stat that a designer should be particularly wary about comboing with % pen given their new changes to %/flat pen)
Also why aren't they making the PBE Cleaver unique on CDR yet? Why is cleaver the ONLY item in the game with non-unique CDR? O_o
(They HAVE made the Flat Armor Pen unique)
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On December 13 2012 05:24 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 05:17 Sufficiency wrote:On December 13 2012 05:14 TheYango wrote:
I still think the decision to swap the flat/% pen order was ill-conceived. That's also a problem, but I am willing to let it slide due to the flat pen numbers nerf. I believe you can work out that the total amount of penetration after LW/VS didn't actually change that much. Also, the % penetration items are very gold inefficient on AD/AP and they are only justified for their cost if the target's armor/MR is high. They also do not provide anything other than % pen and AD/AP. Yeah, this is basically showcasing all my complaints about cleaver. Last whisper is a specialized item to handle armor-stacking. Cleaver gives you the "special" thing about Last Whisper (a boatload of % pen) on an item which is versatile and very cost-efficient in its stats (including the stat that a designer should be particularly wary about comboing with % pen given their new changes to %/flat pen) Also why aren't they making the PBE Cleaver unique on CDR yet? Why is cleaver the ONLY item in the game with non-unique CDR? O_o (They HAVE made the Flat Armor Pen unique)
Lots of items have non-unique CDR now, it's not just cleaver.
(Also, you can still stack flat arpen on youmu's)
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Honestly I think the best solution to BC is dropping the HP component, replacing it with pickaxe and giving +5-10 AD in the recipe keeping around the same total cost. That way it is an AD caster offensive item, instead of the one item that gives every single stat an AD caster or assassin would ever want. The HP component is what really puts it over the top imho.
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On December 13 2012 05:38 SpaceToaster wrote:
Honestly I think the best solution to BC is dropping the HP component, replacing it with pickaxe and giving +5-10 AD in the recipe keeping around the same total cost. That way it is an AD caster offensive item, instead of the one item that gives every single stat an AD caster or assassin would ever want. The HP component is what really puts it over the top imho.
I think the fact you can shread and ignore and entire teams armor with say, 1 rake or 1 heart seeker strike is the problem, not the health
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How do we report people who troll in Champ select who just waits for others to dodge?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Imo "fight broken with broken" is the right design philosophy for a MOBA game, but with only one broken item it doesn't do that much.
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On December 13 2012 05:44 nosliw wrote:
How do we report people who troll in Champ select who just waits for others to dodge?
you play out the game and report afterwards
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On December 13 2012 05:46 BluzMan wrote:
Imo "fight broken with broken" is the right design philosophy for a MOBA game, but with only one broken item it doesn't do that much.
I thought people were saying liandry's teemo was stupid too? Whatever happened to that?
(Possibly bad) new idea: thornmail now procs on all physical damage
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On December 13 2012 04:43 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 04:28 sylverfyre wrote:On December 13 2012 03:40 thenexusp wrote:On December 13 2012 03:38 Ketara wrote:
Finally played a ranked game against a mid Talon who rushed 3 black cleavers.
Was really dumb. Nerf needs to happen now. If it's really that broken, there's no reason you can't just pick bruiser/AD assassin mid yourself and win games. People are really overblowing the need for a balance hotfix. hurricane is worst when a bruiser dives you and you're forced to kite him, and a PD would help a lot due to the higher single-target dps and MS but the hurricane just sucks there. There's a reason people are saying (complaining) the game comes down to who has more black cleavers. Panth, Talon, and friends suddenly are seeing a ridiculous surge in usage, winrate, and more importantly, the standard counterplay (buy some armor so you dont get 100->0'd in a combo) DOESN'T WORK. A cleaver and a brutalizer will full-pen your armor, counting 5 Arpen mastery but no runes, from 55 armor. 100 Armor gets reduced to 30. And they're also getting free survivability and CDR. With a last whisper, 200 Armor gets reduced to 48 armor. That's bringing the malphites and other armor-happy people down to the armor level of AD carries late game. Just to make matters worse, if a team is stacking arpen, they synergize with each other by playing off each other's stacks. The AD carry doesn't even need a last whisper vs. 150 armor opponents, they can just mooch off cleavers or get their own cleaver (which has more stat efficiency and murders squishies straight up better / helps their AD caster murder everyone) This is what happens when you combine a great flat pen item in the game with something with a great % pen item in the game, and have them stack favorably, and then give the item 1000 gold more stats than its price. My solution so far has been "fuck armor (even GA), it doesn't work anyway, I'm buying a warmogs." "Just play an AD caster" might as well be telling people to run an AD caster jungle, mid, and top lane. Oh wait, this is already starting to happen. Yes this is unhealthy for the game in the long run. I just don't get why people can't even just wait a week for the next balance patch to go through, and while they're waiting for it either play AD casters themselves or go think of ways to counter it. With any luck, the balance changes could come with when they fix the annie/viktor thing (something that is worthy of hotfix) Also, if you read riot's preview of BC, it made it seem they intended the counterplay to it to be warmog's.
A significant part of the problem is that many players simply lack the resources. I don't mean in terms of available information or mental capacity, but actual in-game resources.
Players who have every champion, 20 rune pages, and more runes than a viking bookstore are rare. The vast majority of players buy everything piecemeal through IP, with maybe an occasional RP purchase. So a significant portion of LoL's population simply do not own Kha'zix, Talon, Pantheon, Wukong etc. and telling them to just play them and be happy is fairly ignorant of their situation. Neither do they necessarily have the ideal runes for these champions, or a spare rune page to use. They could save up some IP and buy Pantheon, the cheapest of these temporarily overpowered champions, for 3150 IP, but that's a substantial investment for circumstances that won't last another week, assuming they can farm that much IP in the short time remaining before the nerf.
So that's part of why many players are annoyed and impatient, and their complaints are fairly reasonable given the circumstances.
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The old order of flat > % makes it so that the % reduction is only really good vs high armor stacking. while the new % > flat makes % reduction always good untill really really low amounts of armor. Riot created extra problems by switching it.
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Am I the only one who thinks soloQ is more volatile than ever right now? It's not surprising I guess, but I've never been streaking like this before. Yesterday was crap, all losses. Today, all wins.
And not a single fkn game was close. We either lose harrrrd, or stomp even harder.
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On December 13 2012 06:03 Cuddle wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks soloQ is more volatile than ever right now? It's not surprising I guess, but I've never been streaking like this before. Yesterday was crap, all losses. Today, all wins.
And not a single fkn game was close. We either lose harrrrd, or stomp even harder.
Pretty much. My solution is to play Sona 24/7. They can't maul you with Black Cleavers if they're busy dancing!
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On December 13 2012 05:44 nosliw wrote:
How do we report people who troll in Champ select who just waits for others to dodge?
screenshot send it support imo.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 13 2012 05:47 greggy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 05:44 nosliw wrote:
How do we report people who troll in Champ select who just waits for others to dodge? you play out the game and report afterwards
Or you can just take a screen shot of the client and e-mail it directly to Riot. The Tribunal won't see the pre-game chat anyway, and this way you don't have to play a game that you know probably won't be fun.
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On December 13 2012 05:47 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 05:46 BluzMan wrote:
Imo "fight broken with broken" is the right design philosophy for a MOBA game, but with only one broken item it doesn't do that much. I thought people were saying liandry's teemo was stupid too? Whatever happened to that? (Possibly bad) new idea: thornmail now procs on all physical damage
liandry's is stupid as in it's bad and a noob trap
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I'd love to see some math on why Liandry's is bad.
(Because it's not)
It's just bad as a first major item generally. Depending on champion, as a 4th or 5th major item I think it's amaaaaaaziiiiiing.
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I'm thinking flat penetration is problematic because it's an increasing returns stat, meaning it's hard to tune well (too easy to fall off the balance cliff). CDR is like that too but it gets capped at 40% so we don't notice it.
What would happen if all flat penetration was replaced by "UNIQUE passive: Increases physical damage against champions by x%"? Maybe even turn it into a stat, like "+x physical amplification", so there'd be a little diminishing returns on stacking the same stat.
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Another option would be to just do flat armor pen like they do flat spell pen, make all the flat pen bonuses the same unique passive so you can only have one of them.
You can't do Haunting Guise + Liandry's and get 30 mpen, why can you do Brutalizer + Black Cleaver or Black Cleaver + Ghostblade?
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Obviously, the solution to fixing the ArP problem, AD Casters and Black Cleavers is to add an item that causes True Damage.
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EPT
