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On November 15 2012 00:55 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 00:44 Sandster wrote:
I've been thinking of picking up Hecarim as a jungler. How come no one plays him, other than dignitas? When he came out I thought his kit was quite strong for a gank oriented tanky jungler. One thing I'm cautious about him is that his kit only has W heal to help him tank, and he has no shield/resists to help, so he's kind of squishy if going double gp5. You really don't get a feel for how fucking insane W is until you actually use it correctly the first time. Like, the heal doesn't seem like that much, but popping it in the middle of a teamfight when your AP blows his AoE abilities and you're spamming Q means you're basically unkillable. Throw some resistances on top of there (I used to build Maw/FH as my core defensive) and you're basically manmode. Just note that your 1v1 gets really weak. Your single target damage is pretty low (unless you have Sheen/TF, in which case it becomes respectable), but in teamfights you're dishing out AoE damage and being an invincible disruptor. As far as ganks go, you just have to kind of man up and be a tanky damage presence. You're not Amumu or Mao, locking them down so your teammates can nuke them, you just have to sprint in, ult, and stomp around on their face until they die. Just make sure not to save the enemy with your knockback.
Considering that the jungle will be majorly changed pretty soon, it might be smart to hold of buying new junglers until you know if you can even play them in the new jungle.
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On November 15 2012 00:44 Sandster wrote:
I've been thinking of picking up Hecarim as a jungler. How come no one plays him, other than dignitas? When he came out I thought his kit was quite strong for a gank oriented tanky jungler. One thing I'm cautious about him is that his kit only has W heal to help him tank, and he has no shield/resists to help, so he's kind of squishy if going double gp5.
Hecarim has a strong kit, but it requires some finesse to use properly. It's very easy to screw up his E and R, and his W is very dependent on his team. However, if you learn how to play him well you can terrorize lanes.
Do not build Wriggle's on him. There are different ways to build him (Philo + Glacial for CDR tank madness, Trinity for sweet procs, triple gp10 for late game), but Wriggle's is not one of the better ones.
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On November 15 2012 00:59 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 00:55 Requizen wrote:On November 15 2012 00:44 Sandster wrote:
I've been thinking of picking up Hecarim as a jungler. How come no one plays him, other than dignitas? When he came out I thought his kit was quite strong for a gank oriented tanky jungler. One thing I'm cautious about him is that his kit only has W heal to help him tank, and he has no shield/resists to help, so he's kind of squishy if going double gp5. You really don't get a feel for how fucking insane W is until you actually use it correctly the first time. Like, the heal doesn't seem like that much, but popping it in the middle of a teamfight when your AP blows his AoE abilities and you're spamming Q means you're basically unkillable. Throw some resistances on top of there (I used to build Maw/FH as my core defensive) and you're basically manmode. Just note that your 1v1 gets really weak. Your single target damage is pretty low (unless you have Sheen/TF, in which case it becomes respectable), but in teamfights you're dishing out AoE damage and being an invincible disruptor. As far as ganks go, you just have to kind of man up and be a tanky damage presence. You're not Amumu or Mao, locking them down so your teammates can nuke them, you just have to sprint in, ult, and stomp around on their face until they die. Just make sure not to save the enemy with your knockback. Considering that the jungle will be majorly changed pretty soon, it might be smart to hold of buying new junglers until you know if you can even play them in the new jungle.
Also that. The jungle update thread had some discussion on which junglers they think are going to be strong/weak:
Hecarim actually has the type of damage needed to clear the jungle. What I've found is that he eats up a fairly ludicrous amount of mana trying to do it at a consistent pace.
Haven't really had time to do a full pass on his power level. He certainly has extremely deadly ganks, great team fight presence, and fairly good scaling with items. Considering those strengths, we'll see if we have to do some early game tweaks to make sure he stays viable.
Haven't made any changes to the health/mana runes on the big monsters at each camp, but that's certainly a lever we can pull if necessary.
Hec actually scales stupidly well with items, and if the gold generation from the jungle increases to the amount they say it will, I think he'll still be a good pick.
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the new jungle would leen itself I would think to a sheen rush hec as the new optimum build. It was always best for a heavy gank hec but now its just pefect all around. 1. ap for extra sustain 2. extra mana for running though the jungle 3 extra ad damage.
The bigest thing I'm looking for in the new items are how they're going to distribute mr.
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On November 15 2012 01:13 Sermokala wrote:
the new jungle would leen itself I would think to a sheen rush hec as the new optimum build. It was always best for a heavy gank hec but now its just pefect all around. 1. ap for extra sustain 2. extra mana for running though the jungle 3 extra ad damage.
The bigest thing I'm looking for in the new items are how they're going to distribute mr.
AP doesn't give him any extra sustain. The healing off minions is capped and can't be raised by AP, and the healing off champions is based off all incoming damage on them, in which case it's probably better to get AD/Arpen to do more damage to increase healing.
Nitpicking aside, the AP is extra damage, and damage is damage. Catching a kill with the edge of W while chasing just outside of melee range is always awesome. Sheen as part of your jungle core will be great, but again, we need to wait to see the actual gold increase for these sorts of things.
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I loved playing WW and Udyr but they're just not good picks right now. WW clears too slow and Udyr doesn't do much with all the gap closers and ez/corki/graves dashing away. I hope the double gp5 build goes away, I feel like Hec would be awesome if he can skip gp5 and go straight for tankiness and sheen/triforce out of the jungle. I just like running fast lol.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Alright guys, it feels kind of weird asking this, but how exactly does Hecarim scale well with items? His offensive ratios are very bad, so it's not that. Is it because his W heals him a lot so he scales well with resistances? That doesn't seem all that exceptional, kinda Mundo-like but not necessarily awesome or close to.
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On November 15 2012 01:29 Scip wrote:
Alright guys, it feels kind of weird asking this, but how exactly does Hecarim scale well with items? His offensive ratios are very bad, so it's not that. Is it because his W heals him a lot so he scales well with resistances? That doesn't seem all that exceptional, kinda Mundo-like but not necessarily awesome or close to.
Well, his single target damage exponentially skyrockets with Sheen/TF due to the spammability of Q. ArPen makes his Q very noticeably stronger in AoE situations, so you see some players grab LW as an offensive item. The difference between a Hec with and without either of those is pretty noticeable.
Besides that, you're right in that it's mostly resistances. Armor and MR coupled with your W make you a complete beast to try and kill, especially during the first few seconds of a fight where burst is coming down from both sides. As long as you have enough resistances to not get instantly melted by burst combos, your heal will almost top you off in the next few seconds, it's completely insane.
Not to mention he looooves CDR. Q becomes like a .5 second CD or something crazy like that, and you can Ult pretty much every time an enemy is in range for good initiation.
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For my part, I'm extremely curious about the increase in jungle gold values. It's been stated that junglers can now keep up in gold, but not the conditions that allow for this. Does this include downtime from ganking? How much CS are the lanes missing?
To give an example, if you assume a lane is pro enough to get 90% of their potential CS, you would have to increase the current value of the jungle by 60% in order for the two to be in parity. I would be utterly shocked to see that large an increase, but that's what would be necessarily to balance around the professional level. If instead you assume a lane only acquires 70% of their potential CS, you'd still need to increase the value of the jungle by 25% to keep in parity.
In either case, the jungle reaches a point where the current dynamic between the lanes and the jungle could flip. Passing off a creep wave to the jungle periodically would increase their farm well beyond that of any one lane, and to a much greater extent than the current Wraith "poaching". Given that Statikk explicitly cited jungle Jax as a potential issue, I'm wondering if this sort of meta shift might actually happen.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I mean he's nice with Sheen and all that and I know that comparing Hecarim to Skarner is a bit out of fashion, but Skarner scales even better with Sheen. Procs it just as often, has higher base AD (highest in the game actually) and has better AP ratios. People don't buy it because there are way better options though. I guess he scales well with Arpen, but if you want Sheen+LW that's a ton of money not invested in defense nor sustain which is a bit problematic.
His Q has 1.2 second CD when fully stacked with 40% CDR which is pretty good, but I don't think I need to whip out the maths comparing him to Skarner here. And stuff.
I am not saying Hecarim is bad, but what he looks like is a midgame beast, not a lategame one.
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Holy balls elise is fast in the jungle, might have to buy her
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On November 15 2012 01:47 Seuss wrote:
For my part, I'm extremely curious about the increase in jungle gold values. It's been stated that junglers can now keep up in gold, but not the conditions that allow for this. Does this include downtime from ganking? How much CS are the lanes missing?
To give an example, if you assume a lane is pro enough to get 90% of their potential CS, you would have to increase the current value of the jungle by 60% in order for the two to be in parity. I would be utterly shocked to see that large an increase, but that's what would be necessarily to balance around the professional level. If instead you assume a lane only acquires 70% of their potential CS, you'd still need to increase the value of the jungle by 25% to keep in parity.
In either case, the jungle reaches a point where the current dynamic between the lanes and the jungle could flip. Passing off a creep wave to the jungle periodically would increase their farm well beyond that of any one lane, and to a much greater extent than the current Wraith "poaching". Given that Statikk explicitly cited jungle Jax as a potential issue, I'm wondering if this sort of meta shift might actually happen.
I can't imagine that Riot is aiming for a jungle where hypercarries can farm uncontested and automatically become beastly in the lategame. That would of course counteract the "snowball meta" that people like to complain about, but I feel like the alternative is even worse.
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On November 15 2012 00:55 thenexusp wrote:
The problem I have with lulu is that whenever there's a 6-stack chogath on my team I always have this unresistable urge to ult him instead of whoever is the right choice at the time
Lulu's just lots of fun to play in general.
I play games with Lulu just for epic ulting action. Lulu R/W/E + Hecarim = Pony chaaaaaarge.
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On November 15 2012 02:02 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:47 Seuss wrote:
For my part, I'm extremely curious about the increase in jungle gold values. It's been stated that junglers can now keep up in gold, but not the conditions that allow for this. Does this include downtime from ganking? How much CS are the lanes missing?
To give an example, if you assume a lane is pro enough to get 90% of their potential CS, you would have to increase the current value of the jungle by 60% in order for the two to be in parity. I would be utterly shocked to see that large an increase, but that's what would be necessarily to balance around the professional level. If instead you assume a lane only acquires 70% of their potential CS, you'd still need to increase the value of the jungle by 25% to keep in parity.
In either case, the jungle reaches a point where the current dynamic between the lanes and the jungle could flip. Passing off a creep wave to the jungle periodically would increase their farm well beyond that of any one lane, and to a much greater extent than the current Wraith "poaching". Given that Statikk explicitly cited jungle Jax as a potential issue, I'm wondering if this sort of meta shift might actually happen. I can't imagine that Riot is aiming for a jungle where hypercarries can farm uncontested and automatically become beastly in the lategame. That would of course counteract the "snowball meta" that people like to complain about, but I feel like the alternative is even worse.
Well, I think it isn't too bad as a choice. If you know someone like Jax is jungling, and he's going to just farm and try to get gold, you can take advantage of that by having your jungler gank heavily (rumor is the jungle is too dangerous to both farm and counter gank a lot), or play a heavy counter jungler like Nunu and steal his gold, forcing him to do other things.
Even if the gold income is much higher, it's not like the jungler will exist in a static box where he can be unmolested. And even if he is, the other jungler is more of an early game presence and can abuse that pretty badly to snowball his own lanes.
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On November 15 2012 01:47 Seuss wrote:
For my part, I'm extremely curious about the increase in jungle gold values. It's been stated that junglers can now keep up in gold, but not the conditions that allow for this. Does this include downtime from ganking? How much CS are the lanes missing?
To give an example, if you assume a lane is pro enough to get 90% of their potential CS, you would have to increase the current value of the jungle by 60% in order for the two to be in parity. I would be utterly shocked to see that large an increase, but that's what would be necessarily to balance around the professional level. If instead you assume a lane only acquires 70% of their potential CS, you'd still need to increase the value of the jungle by 25% to keep in parity.
In either case, the jungle reaches a point where the current dynamic between the lanes and the jungle could flip. Passing off a creep wave to the jungle periodically would increase their farm well beyond that of any one lane, and to a much greater extent than the current Wraith "poaching". Given that Statikk explicitly cited jungle Jax as a potential issue, I'm wondering if this sort of meta shift might actually happen.
They're not buffing jungle gold to be equal to lanes 100%. I could list an arbitrary percent like 30-40% but that's just me pulling numbers out of my ass. Right now if you're not killing with a majority of your ganks you're falling behind. I'd assume they want you to be able to farm reasonably well, and supplement your lacking income (compared to lanes) by pulling off successful ganks.
How they'll manage to make it not like the old jungle where it wasn't even worth it to gank a lot of the time I don't know, and I'm not completely sure that I trust Riot is capable of doing that but I have a feeling that they'll try their best.
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On November 15 2012 02:02 upperbound wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 01:47 Seuss wrote:
For my part, I'm extremely curious about the increase in jungle gold values. It's been stated that junglers can now keep up in gold, but not the conditions that allow for this. Does this include downtime from ganking? How much CS are the lanes missing?
To give an example, if you assume a lane is pro enough to get 90% of their potential CS, you would have to increase the current value of the jungle by 60% in order for the two to be in parity. I would be utterly shocked to see that large an increase, but that's what would be necessarily to balance around the professional level. If instead you assume a lane only acquires 70% of their potential CS, you'd still need to increase the value of the jungle by 25% to keep in parity.
In either case, the jungle reaches a point where the current dynamic between the lanes and the jungle could flip. Passing off a creep wave to the jungle periodically would increase their farm well beyond that of any one lane, and to a much greater extent than the current Wraith "poaching". Given that Statikk explicitly cited jungle Jax as a potential issue, I'm wondering if this sort of meta shift might actually happen. I can't imagine that Riot is aiming for a jungle where hypercarries can farm uncontested and automatically become beastly in the lategame. That would of course counteract the "snowball meta" that people like to complain about, but I feel like the alternative is even worse.
Well, there are some champions that can already farm the current jungle extremely fast, ie. Karthus. Just don't try it in solo queue or you'll never hear the end of "omg no ganks".
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I'm preparing for the inevitable "noob jungle always gank never farm" when you end up being Maokai vs Trynd and he managed to farm an IE or something.
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On November 15 2012 02:14 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 02:02 upperbound wrote:On November 15 2012 01:47 Seuss wrote:
For my part, I'm extremely curious about the increase in jungle gold values. It's been stated that junglers can now keep up in gold, but not the conditions that allow for this. Does this include downtime from ganking? How much CS are the lanes missing?
To give an example, if you assume a lane is pro enough to get 90% of their potential CS, you would have to increase the current value of the jungle by 60% in order for the two to be in parity. I would be utterly shocked to see that large an increase, but that's what would be necessarily to balance around the professional level. If instead you assume a lane only acquires 70% of their potential CS, you'd still need to increase the value of the jungle by 25% to keep in parity.
In either case, the jungle reaches a point where the current dynamic between the lanes and the jungle could flip. Passing off a creep wave to the jungle periodically would increase their farm well beyond that of any one lane, and to a much greater extent than the current Wraith "poaching". Given that Statikk explicitly cited jungle Jax as a potential issue, I'm wondering if this sort of meta shift might actually happen. I can't imagine that Riot is aiming for a jungle where hypercarries can farm uncontested and automatically become beastly in the lategame. That would of course counteract the "snowball meta" that people like to complain about, but I feel like the alternative is even worse. Well, there are some champions that can already farm the current jungle extremely fast, ie. Karthus. Just don't try it in solo queue or you'll never hear the end of "omg no ganks".
There is a very hard speed limit on the jungle right now, you just run out of camps on pretty much any decently fast jungle if you just try to farm.
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On November 15 2012 02:17 Lounge wrote:
I'm preparing for the inevitable "noob jungle always gank never farm" when you end up being Maokai vs Trynd and he managed to farm an IE or something.
I totally hope that Tryndamere becomes viable again  such a badass champ.
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Viable Tryn would be both heaven and hell xD
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EPT
