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United States47024 Posts
Those are more or less on the specific design of the item. I'm arguing that the absorb mechanic is more or less counter to a support's needs.
It's possible that it could be geared toward an item aimed at non-support heroes. But suggesting that slot-efficiency over cost-efficiency helps supports the way they are now demonstrates a misunderstanding of support itemization IMO.
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On November 09 2012 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:On November 09 2012 03:09 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:On November 09 2012 00:01 Requizen wrote:On November 08 2012 23:54 WaveofShadow wrote:Wowowowow. THIS is interesting. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31182511#post31182511Xypherous really shakes things up in LoL, not always for the better, but at least he's trying to make a big difference. Makes for a very interesting investment item, though I'm not sure how useful it's REALLY going to be because in order for the regen to be useful you have to get it real early, and the 'aid' passive isn't great at all. Early game item not slot effective? Make it absorb into the champion. I kind of like it. If they buff Heal or CV to the point where people start taking them again, it might be a really worthwhile investment on support champs. As he points out later in the thread, it opens up slots for consumables later in the game, so you won't worry as much about the "support with items but no wards", rare as it is. It may actually be pretty cost effective if it still builds out of Philo. If you get Philo quickly (assists from early kills or your AD allows you to farm a bit), it pays itself off probably far before you hit 14, then you buy Miracle and let it disappear late game so you have another slot for aura/wards. Edit: this: Some dude: Now that i think of it... what's to prevent people from demanding supports just get these disapearing items, boots, and then just telling them to fill up on wards? Xyph: People kind of do that now already - so first, you have to solve the ward problem somehow.
I'll.. talk about that later. I should probably sleep or something. Night guys Ward changes inc? I really dislike the 3-level thing. Make it "hold for 10 minutes" instead plz. The fact that it absorbs into champion is fucking full retard. When is riot going to understand, some times strong cost efficiency can out weigh slot efficiency. Exactly. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what supports need. Supports have low income. They can't afford to get things that are cost-inefficient but slot-efficient because they aren't going to finish that many items, but don't have gold to waste. Items slated for supports should be cost-efficient but slot-inefficient, because they will be good, but impractical for non-supports to get (because the slot-inefficiency becomes prohibitive for non-supports very quickly mid/late-game). On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period. Another issue i have with this item is that it's not even that great for support. Even in modern meta play, supports are starting to get hog before philo, meaning supports are finding that upfront stats, are way more useful in botlane play, than sustain. so all the sustain stats this gives, although pretty good, isn't exactly what a support needs. Sure, there's the 20% cdr on clairvoyance/revive/heal. Of which no support takes anymore. Heal is relegated to ADC (and even adc's are not running heal anymore). Revive is still useless. Clairvoyance, is a great skill, but the strength in clairvoyance is in its super early game (lvl 1 fights, and lvl 2-3 invades), and lategame (when everyone has oracles and the game is close, ergo anyone can get baron). The long cd on current clairvoyance only affects its early game, late game (engagements happen every few minutes, when Clairvoyance is always off CD for key baron engagements or objectives). So you're not gettign this item til mid game, so its strength in early game doesn't get magnified at all. Still relegating clairvoyance to a pretty much useless summoner until lategame (where the 20% cdr isn't really that useful). Also, you're delaying shurelya's and aotl, and what not, to get this item.
You're making all these assumptions based on the summoner spells not being changed, when it's been stated that they will be changed. Heal specifically was stated to be changed so that it would be more attractive for supports.
I think the cooldown passive is really neat, and if the summoners match up, could provide a lot of differentiation in builds. The item slot removal passive thing seems odd, though. Supports don't need the extra item slot. Other roles do.
If Heal gets a buff I could totally see myself grabbing this early on some AP Mids and running Heal and using it for free lategame sustain.
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Riot really said that EM is intended as a support item?Seems like a top lane item to me if anything.
I don't see why I would ever build that from my philo instead of a shurelyas as a support.
+ everything that yango said.
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The Aid passive leads it to be something that supports would want. (Phreak mentioned Heal being aimed more at supports now, CV might make a comeback if knowing where the jungler is becomes relevant again.) But the absorb makes it something a top or jungler would want. Like maybe someone that needs help with sustain, but doesn't want Shurelia as one of their last items.
Overall it seems just as awkward as the old item.
Edit: Syntax
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Reduced CD on specific summoner spells is an interesting mechanic though, especially if CV becomes widely played again
I wonder if the legendary new jungle item is just a reduced CD on smite :O
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Most likely they're changing it so heal will heal allies more and you less. Essentially the opposite of what it is now. That way only really a support would want it as it wouldn't heal the caster much. Then with this new item you can gain the ability to make heal or cv have an even lower CD while lategame it not affecting the supports ability to have multiple cheap aura items + wards. That just seems like their thinking process at least, regardless if its flawed or not.
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is there a way to copy the whole riot games folder so when i reinstall windows I can copy those files again and dont have to download everything? last time I failed horribly and just copied the folder and tried to start it but it didnt work.
Same question for steam games, do I have to save them or can I just download them again after I reinstalled steam ( talking about counter strike G.O., Dota 2 and stuff)
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On November 09 2012 04:50 AsnSensation wrote:
is there a way to copy the whole riot games folder so when i reinstall windows I can copy those files again and dont have to download everything? last time I failed horribly and just copied the folder and tried to start it but it didnt work.
Same question for steam games, do I have to save them or can I just download them again after I reinstalled steam ( talking about counter strike G.O., Dota 2 and stuff)
I've copied my steam folder and riot games folder over to a thumb drive/portable hd on many occasions and used them for months without issues.
Perfect for gamin at the works. :X
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hmm when I tried to start it, it didnt work Ill look into that before I reinstall windows thx anyway^^
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On November 09 2012 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:On November 09 2012 03:09 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:On November 09 2012 00:01 Requizen wrote:On November 08 2012 23:54 WaveofShadow wrote:Wowowowow. THIS is interesting. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31182511#post31182511Xypherous really shakes things up in LoL, not always for the better, but at least he's trying to make a big difference. Makes for a very interesting investment item, though I'm not sure how useful it's REALLY going to be because in order for the regen to be useful you have to get it real early, and the 'aid' passive isn't great at all. Early game item not slot effective? Make it absorb into the champion. I kind of like it. If they buff Heal or CV to the point where people start taking them again, it might be a really worthwhile investment on support champs. As he points out later in the thread, it opens up slots for consumables later in the game, so you won't worry as much about the "support with items but no wards", rare as it is. It may actually be pretty cost effective if it still builds out of Philo. If you get Philo quickly (assists from early kills or your AD allows you to farm a bit), it pays itself off probably far before you hit 14, then you buy Miracle and let it disappear late game so you have another slot for aura/wards. Edit: this: Some dude: Now that i think of it... what's to prevent people from demanding supports just get these disapearing items, boots, and then just telling them to fill up on wards? Xyph: People kind of do that now already - so first, you have to solve the ward problem somehow.
I'll.. talk about that later. I should probably sleep or something. Night guys Ward changes inc? I really dislike the 3-level thing. Make it "hold for 10 minutes" instead plz. The fact that it absorbs into champion is fucking full retard. When is riot going to understand, some times strong cost efficiency can out weigh slot efficiency. Exactly. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what supports need. Supports have low income. They can't afford to get things that are cost-inefficient but slot-efficient because they aren't going to finish that many items, but don't have gold to waste. Items slated for supports should be cost-efficient but slot-inefficient, because they will be good, but impractical for non-supports to get (because the slot-inefficiency becomes prohibitive for non-supports very quickly mid/late-game). On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period. Another issue i have with this item is that it's not even that great for support. Even in modern meta play, supports are starting to get hog before philo, meaning supports are finding that upfront stats, are way more useful in botlane play, than sustain. so all the sustain stats this gives, although pretty good, isn't exactly what a support needs. Sure, there's the 20% cdr on clairvoyance/revive/heal. Of which no support takes anymore. Heal is relegated to ADC (and even adc's are not running heal anymore). Revive is still useless. Clairvoyance, is a great skill, but the strength in clairvoyance is in its super early game (lvl 1 fights, and lvl 2-3 invades), and lategame (when everyone has oracles and the game is close, ergo anyone can get baron). The long cd on current clairvoyance only affects its early game, late game (engagements happen every few minutes, when Clairvoyance is always off CD for key baron engagements or objectives). So you're not gettign this item til mid game, so its strength in early game doesn't get magnified at all. Still relegating clairvoyance to a pretty much useless summoner until lategame (where the 20% cdr isn't really that useful). Also, you're delaying shurelya's and aotl, and what not, to get this item.
Supports getting HoG before Philo deserve to be hit over the head with a high school math textbook. Itemizing health is fine, but, jeez.
I'm not even judging the item until we see more of the picture, but I like that they're thinking out of the box on some things. Xyph said it might be terrible, but he wanted to give it a shot. Why is everyone flipping out?
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On November 09 2012 04:58 Prinate wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:On November 09 2012 03:09 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:On November 09 2012 00:01 Requizen wrote:On November 08 2012 23:54 WaveofShadow wrote:Wowowowow. THIS is interesting. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31182511#post31182511Xypherous really shakes things up in LoL, not always for the better, but at least he's trying to make a big difference. Makes for a very interesting investment item, though I'm not sure how useful it's REALLY going to be because in order for the regen to be useful you have to get it real early, and the 'aid' passive isn't great at all. Early game item not slot effective? Make it absorb into the champion. I kind of like it. If they buff Heal or CV to the point where people start taking them again, it might be a really worthwhile investment on support champs. As he points out later in the thread, it opens up slots for consumables later in the game, so you won't worry as much about the "support with items but no wards", rare as it is. It may actually be pretty cost effective if it still builds out of Philo. If you get Philo quickly (assists from early kills or your AD allows you to farm a bit), it pays itself off probably far before you hit 14, then you buy Miracle and let it disappear late game so you have another slot for aura/wards. Edit: this: Some dude: Now that i think of it... what's to prevent people from demanding supports just get these disapearing items, boots, and then just telling them to fill up on wards? Xyph: People kind of do that now already - so first, you have to solve the ward problem somehow.
I'll.. talk about that later. I should probably sleep or something. Night guys Ward changes inc? I really dislike the 3-level thing. Make it "hold for 10 minutes" instead plz. The fact that it absorbs into champion is fucking full retard. When is riot going to understand, some times strong cost efficiency can out weigh slot efficiency. Exactly. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what supports need. Supports have low income. They can't afford to get things that are cost-inefficient but slot-efficient because they aren't going to finish that many items, but don't have gold to waste. Items slated for supports should be cost-efficient but slot-inefficient, because they will be good, but impractical for non-supports to get (because the slot-inefficiency becomes prohibitive for non-supports very quickly mid/late-game). On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period. Another issue i have with this item is that it's not even that great for support. Even in modern meta play, supports are starting to get hog before philo, meaning supports are finding that upfront stats, are way more useful in botlane play, than sustain. so all the sustain stats this gives, although pretty good, isn't exactly what a support needs. Sure, there's the 20% cdr on clairvoyance/revive/heal. Of which no support takes anymore. Heal is relegated to ADC (and even adc's are not running heal anymore). Revive is still useless. Clairvoyance, is a great skill, but the strength in clairvoyance is in its super early game (lvl 1 fights, and lvl 2-3 invades), and lategame (when everyone has oracles and the game is close, ergo anyone can get baron). The long cd on current clairvoyance only affects its early game, late game (engagements happen every few minutes, when Clairvoyance is always off CD for key baron engagements or objectives). So you're not gettign this item til mid game, so its strength in early game doesn't get magnified at all. Still relegating clairvoyance to a pretty much useless summoner until lategame (where the 20% cdr isn't really that useful). Also, you're delaying shurelya's and aotl, and what not, to get this item. Supports getting HoG before Philo deserve to be hit over the head with a high school math textbook. Itemizing health is fine, but, jeez. I'm not even judging the item until we see more of the picture, but I like that they're thinking out of the box on some things. Xyph said it might be terrible, but he wanted to give it a shot. Why is everyone flipping out?
Tell me, what good is your extra health and mana regen when Blitz/Leona 100-0's you in one combo?
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You could just get kindlegem instead for nearly the same cost and more health.....
That would also mean a faster shurelyas, or if you're rushing zekes, a faster zekes.
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On November 09 2012 05:00 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:58 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:On November 09 2012 03:09 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:On November 09 2012 00:01 Requizen wrote:On November 08 2012 23:54 WaveofShadow wrote:Wowowowow. THIS is interesting. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31182511#post31182511Xypherous really shakes things up in LoL, not always for the better, but at least he's trying to make a big difference. Makes for a very interesting investment item, though I'm not sure how useful it's REALLY going to be because in order for the regen to be useful you have to get it real early, and the 'aid' passive isn't great at all. Early game item not slot effective? Make it absorb into the champion. I kind of like it. If they buff Heal or CV to the point where people start taking them again, it might be a really worthwhile investment on support champs. As he points out later in the thread, it opens up slots for consumables later in the game, so you won't worry as much about the "support with items but no wards", rare as it is. It may actually be pretty cost effective if it still builds out of Philo. If you get Philo quickly (assists from early kills or your AD allows you to farm a bit), it pays itself off probably far before you hit 14, then you buy Miracle and let it disappear late game so you have another slot for aura/wards. Edit: this: Some dude: Now that i think of it... what's to prevent people from demanding supports just get these disapearing items, boots, and then just telling them to fill up on wards? Xyph: People kind of do that now already - so first, you have to solve the ward problem somehow.
I'll.. talk about that later. I should probably sleep or something. Night guys Ward changes inc? I really dislike the 3-level thing. Make it "hold for 10 minutes" instead plz. The fact that it absorbs into champion is fucking full retard. When is riot going to understand, some times strong cost efficiency can out weigh slot efficiency. Exactly. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what supports need. Supports have low income. They can't afford to get things that are cost-inefficient but slot-efficient because they aren't going to finish that many items, but don't have gold to waste. Items slated for supports should be cost-efficient but slot-inefficient, because they will be good, but impractical for non-supports to get (because the slot-inefficiency becomes prohibitive for non-supports very quickly mid/late-game). On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period. Another issue i have with this item is that it's not even that great for support. Even in modern meta play, supports are starting to get hog before philo, meaning supports are finding that upfront stats, are way more useful in botlane play, than sustain. so all the sustain stats this gives, although pretty good, isn't exactly what a support needs. Sure, there's the 20% cdr on clairvoyance/revive/heal. Of which no support takes anymore. Heal is relegated to ADC (and even adc's are not running heal anymore). Revive is still useless. Clairvoyance, is a great skill, but the strength in clairvoyance is in its super early game (lvl 1 fights, and lvl 2-3 invades), and lategame (when everyone has oracles and the game is close, ergo anyone can get baron). The long cd on current clairvoyance only affects its early game, late game (engagements happen every few minutes, when Clairvoyance is always off CD for key baron engagements or objectives). So you're not gettign this item til mid game, so its strength in early game doesn't get magnified at all. Still relegating clairvoyance to a pretty much useless summoner until lategame (where the 20% cdr isn't really that useful). Also, you're delaying shurelya's and aotl, and what not, to get this item. Supports getting HoG before Philo deserve to be hit over the head with a high school math textbook. Itemizing health is fine, but, jeez. I'm not even judging the item until we see more of the picture, but I like that they're thinking out of the box on some things. Xyph said it might be terrible, but he wanted to give it a shot. Why is everyone flipping out? Tell me, what good is your extra health and mana regen when Blitz/Leona 100-0's you in one combo?
Tell me, Sandster... what good is a phone call... if you're unable to speak?
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By that logic, you could get a ruby crystal and NMM for the same cost and more effective health! And they build into aegis. The point is that hog before philo is not always bad.
EDIT: ^ Haha
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On November 09 2012 05:00 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:58 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 04:13 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:On November 09 2012 03:09 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:On November 09 2012 00:01 Requizen wrote:On November 08 2012 23:54 WaveofShadow wrote:Wowowowow. THIS is interesting. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31182511#post31182511Xypherous really shakes things up in LoL, not always for the better, but at least he's trying to make a big difference. Makes for a very interesting investment item, though I'm not sure how useful it's REALLY going to be because in order for the regen to be useful you have to get it real early, and the 'aid' passive isn't great at all. Early game item not slot effective? Make it absorb into the champion. I kind of like it. If they buff Heal or CV to the point where people start taking them again, it might be a really worthwhile investment on support champs. As he points out later in the thread, it opens up slots for consumables later in the game, so you won't worry as much about the "support with items but no wards", rare as it is. It may actually be pretty cost effective if it still builds out of Philo. If you get Philo quickly (assists from early kills or your AD allows you to farm a bit), it pays itself off probably far before you hit 14, then you buy Miracle and let it disappear late game so you have another slot for aura/wards. Edit: this: Some dude: Now that i think of it... what's to prevent people from demanding supports just get these disapearing items, boots, and then just telling them to fill up on wards? Xyph: People kind of do that now already - so first, you have to solve the ward problem somehow.
I'll.. talk about that later. I should probably sleep or something. Night guys Ward changes inc? I really dislike the 3-level thing. Make it "hold for 10 minutes" instead plz. The fact that it absorbs into champion is fucking full retard. When is riot going to understand, some times strong cost efficiency can out weigh slot efficiency. Exactly. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what supports need. Supports have low income. They can't afford to get things that are cost-inefficient but slot-efficient because they aren't going to finish that many items, but don't have gold to waste. Items slated for supports should be cost-efficient but slot-inefficient, because they will be good, but impractical for non-supports to get (because the slot-inefficiency becomes prohibitive for non-supports very quickly mid/late-game). On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period. Another issue i have with this item is that it's not even that great for support. Even in modern meta play, supports are starting to get hog before philo, meaning supports are finding that upfront stats, are way more useful in botlane play, than sustain. so all the sustain stats this gives, although pretty good, isn't exactly what a support needs. Sure, there's the 20% cdr on clairvoyance/revive/heal. Of which no support takes anymore. Heal is relegated to ADC (and even adc's are not running heal anymore). Revive is still useless. Clairvoyance, is a great skill, but the strength in clairvoyance is in its super early game (lvl 1 fights, and lvl 2-3 invades), and lategame (when everyone has oracles and the game is close, ergo anyone can get baron). The long cd on current clairvoyance only affects its early game, late game (engagements happen every few minutes, when Clairvoyance is always off CD for key baron engagements or objectives). So you're not gettign this item til mid game, so its strength in early game doesn't get magnified at all. Still relegating clairvoyance to a pretty much useless summoner until lategame (where the 20% cdr isn't really that useful). Also, you're delaying shurelya's and aotl, and what not, to get this item. Supports getting HoG before Philo deserve to be hit over the head with a high school math textbook. Itemizing health is fine, but, jeez. I'm not even judging the item until we see more of the picture, but I like that they're thinking out of the box on some things. Xyph said it might be terrible, but he wanted to give it a shot. Why is everyone flipping out? Tell me, what good is your extra health and mana regen when Blitz/Leona 100-0's you in one combo?
Tell me, how does that question have anything to do with what I just said (I repeat: "itemizing health is fine.")?
Ruby before Philo is fine, I do it when I'm being the aggressor in bot support sometime. However, wasting 350 gold exactly in that situation (you can go 100-0'ed) for gp5 that doesn't pay for itself for 10 minutes is retarded. Put that gold to use.
Hence, math book assault.
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Because you said with such affirmation: "Anyone who buys a certain gp5 item before a different gp5 item needs to be hit in the head." Why? Does Philo give more gold than HoG or something? It's perfectly fine to start boots -> HoG against certain lanes.
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If you need the survivability, HoG before Philo is the better buy. If you need the health, ruby is supposedly "just fine" right? but what about the gp10? If you get ruby crystal, then you're only 350 away from gp10. even if you went fairie charm first, after ruby crystal, and you want philo, you're now like 585gold away from gp10.
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On November 09 2012 05:13 Sandster wrote:
Because you said with such affirmation: "Anyone who buys a certain gp5 item before a different gp5 item needs to be hit in the head." Why? Does Philo give more gold than HoG or something? It's perfectly fine to start boots -> HoG against certain lanes.
I think they point they're trying to make is that HoG really isn't a good item anymore anyway, if you want health before Philo do something like Kindle or just flat Ruby. HoG hasn't been nearly cost efficient since the nerf (and I don't think it was before then, if I'm not mistaken).
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But like wei2coolman said...you still need gp5. So if you already have a Ruby Crystal why delay it? Most supports still get 2x gp5. If you're not one of them, then the discussion is irrelevant anyway, and I'm not trying to turn this into a gp5 vs no gp5 discussion.
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On November 09 2012 05:18 Sandster wrote:
But like wei2coolman said...you still need gp5. So if you already have a Ruby Crystal why delay it? Most supports still get 2x gp5. If you're not one of them, then the discussion is irrelevant anyway, and I'm not trying to turn this into a gp5 vs no gp5 discussion.
Well yeah, if you're getting both then it's probably fine to do it in whatever way you want. I personally would still go Philo first because I play a more passive/harass style as my supports, but if you're playing Leona or Blitz and getting up in their face, I could see it. I thought your argument was "I need health, therefore HoG", which I would argue against, since there are better Health choices out there early on.
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EPT
