EPTThe choice is either HoG first of Philo first (or I guess DShields if you be stomping). Buying the kindlegem or going for aegis will make your first item come much faster, but then come midgame when have the time you spend is walking around, you're going to have no income and your 3rd item is just never going to happen.
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
The choice is either HoG first of Philo first (or I guess DShields if you be stomping). Buying the kindlegem or going for aegis will make your first item come much faster, but then come midgame when have the time you spend is walking around, you're going to have no income and your 3rd item is just never going to happen. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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Prinate
United States182 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:13 Sandster wrote: Because you said with such affirmation: "Anyone who buys a certain gp5 item before a different gp5 item needs to be hit in the head." Why? Does Philo give more gold than HoG or something? It's perfectly fine to start boots -> HoG against certain lanes. Stop projecting a strawman argument and then defending it. I said I have no problem with ruby, you even made a similar argument against the kindlegem post. And yes, Philo does "basically" give more gold, it you are a support that will use health and mana regen. Philo gives extra value for its cost, in addition to the gp10. HoG gives you 20 health (50g value) for 350g with the gp10. One gives gp10 as a bonus, the other makes you pay for the deficit. What logic says to rush the debt when you can have all of its practical benefit for the ruby? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:29 Prinate wrote: Stop projecting a strawman argument and then defending it. I said I have no problem with ruby, you even made a similar argument against the kindlegem post. And yes, Philo does "basically" give more gold, it you are a support that will use health and mana regen. Philo gives extra value for its cost, in addition to the gp10. HoG gives you 20 health (50g value) for 350g with the gp10. One gives gp10 as a bonus, the other makes you pay for the deficit. What logic says to rush the debt when you can have all of its practical benefit for the ruby? The time between getting philo, from a boots->ruby crystal start. is LONG in comparison to boots->ruby to HoG. The early gp10 from HoG, compared to late gp10 from philo, can be the difference between winning the ward war, or losing it. Also, you can often compensate for lack of sustain w/ pots. you can't do the same for upfront health. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:33 wei2coolman wrote: The time between getting philo, from a boots->ruby crystal start. is LONG in comparison to boots->ruby to HoG. The early gp10 from HoG, compared to late gp10 from philo, can be the difference between winning the ward war, or losing it. Also, you can often compensate for lack of sustain w/ pots. you can't do the same for upfront health. That's assuming that the health and gold generation is worth it. 20 health can save you some times, but let's face it, it's a miniscule increase from Ruby, it's not like that +20 makes you invincible. The gold is also sort of a trap. Saying the gold generation wins the ward war is a bit silly since that's 4 (nearly 5) wards worth of gold that you could have spent now, or going towards a Philo which pays it's price off way faster. Gp5 is supposed to be "pay now, earn later", and HoG is much, much later. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
It's not about the extra health from ruby->hog. It's that you're only 325g from a gp5 item, compared to 800 (or 585) away from philo, so you get income earlier. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
In terms of the stats they give, they are very different. It is perfectly plausible that in some games you will want one and not the other. In terms of efficiency, what really matters the most is what they are going to build into. If you want to get Shurelyas before Locket or whatever, Philo is obviously more efficient, and vice versa. If you're planning on getting both, then there is not much difference in efficiency of getting one before the other. Y'all are arguing over nothing, is what it looks like to me. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:37 Requizen wrote: That's assuming that the health and gold generation is worth it. 20 health can save you some times, but let's face it, it's a miniscule increase from Ruby, it's not like that +20 makes you invincible. The gold is also sort of a trap. Saying the gold generation wins the ward war is a bit silly since that's 4 (nearly 5) wards worth of gold that you could have spent now, or going towards a Philo which pays it's price off way faster. Gp5 is supposed to be "pay now, earn later", and HoG is much, much later. Yes but as a percentage of income, it is still meaningful. I've played support games where I skip GP10 for fast Dorans and Aegis, because we could get kills ez. But when fights weren't happening, your income is pretty much 0. If the game didn't end with a score of like 43-10 I'm pretty sure I would never have been able to afford Reverie/Zekes/Boots2/younameit because I couldn't even afford wards. I would only have ward money after picking up kills. HoG maybe isn't so great on top lane or jungle because your income is a lot more than 0 and if you sink money into something that doesn't pay off immediately, you can usually just get killed. But for a support, your choice is between GP10 and GP10 because skipping it gimps you severely in the midgame. So then its do you want GP10 with regen or GP10 with upfront HP? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
If you want philo+hog Get hog first-->you get philo+hog faster, and philo starts aren't that good later anyway so earlier comps of philo don't matter that much, you mostly want it for shurelya If you want hog, no philo, aegis or zekes --->buy hog first If you want just philo -->get philo | ||
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Gahlo
United States35137 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:41 Ketara wrote: I do not understand this Philo vs. HoG argument. In terms of the stats they give, they are very different. It is perfectly plausible that in some games you will want one and not the other. In terms of efficiency, what really matters the most is what they are going to build into. If you want to get Shurelyas before Locket or whatever, Philo is obviously more efficient, and vice versa. If you're planning on getting both, then there is not much difference in efficiency of getting one before the other. Y'all are arguing over nothing, is what it looks like to me. Welcome to gp10 discussions. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:37 Requizen wrote: That's assuming that the health and gold generation is worth it. 20 health can save you some times, but let's face it, it's a miniscule increase from Ruby, it's not like that +20 makes you invincible. The gold is also sort of a trap. Saying the gold generation wins the ward war is a bit silly since that's 4 (nearly 5) wards worth of gold that you could have spent now, or going towards a Philo which pays it's price off way faster. Gp5 is supposed to be "pay now, earn later", and HoG is much, much later. The idea is if you're playing aggressive support or against aggressive support, and you need health right? So what are your options after boots 2wards? or boots 3pot, as a support? Ruby crystal, obviously. Now the next choice. Do I go philo stone (full 800 gold away), or do I go HoG (350 gold away)? (obviously there are the no-gp10 builds, that can stem from ruby crystal, but generally as support gp10 item is core). HoG the better choice like 80-90% of the time, getting your gp10 rolling is extremely important as a support. Even with fairie charm starts, it's better majority of the time to get hog if you're in a HIGH BURST / Aggressive lane. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Just in terms of gold efficiency (which is kind of noteworthy when you're as gold starved as a support), HoG doesn't measure up to Kindle or Ruby. It's 300g that's dead for ~10 minutes. | ||
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Prinate
United States182 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:33 wei2coolman wrote: The time between getting philo, from a boots->ruby crystal start. is LONG in comparison to boots->ruby to HoG. The early gp10 from HoG, compared to late gp10 from philo, can be the difference between winning the ward war, or losing it. Also, you can often compensate for lack of sustain w/ pots. you can't do the same for upfront health. Can you clarify what time period of the ward war you are referring to? I don't want to argue something if it isn't your intent. But like Req said, you're investing about 5 wards in gold for an item that won't really earn you a ward for 12.5 minutes. Since this is dangerously close to "another gp10" discussion, I'd be happy to take this to the math thread and do a hog wrote up when I get off work (hazmat had a question about it for junglers, anyways.) | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:45 wei2coolman wrote: The idea is if you're playing aggressive support or against aggressive support, and you need health right? So what are your options after boots 2wards? or boots 3pot, as a support? Ruby crystal, obviously. Now the next choice. Do I go philo stone (full 800 gold away), or do I go HoG (350 gold away)? HoG the better choice like 80-90% of the time, getting your gp10 rolling is extremely important as a support. Even with fairie charm starts, it's better majority of the time to get hog if you're in a HIGH BURST / Aggressive lane. Your Gp10 doesn't start "rolling" until the item pays itself off. For HoG, that's a really, really long time. Philo is worth the investment because even if it doesn't pay itself off before you upgrade to Reverie, it's still very efficient and useful stats. 20 health is not. Gp10 isn't something that you omgneed right away anyway. You have gp10 already from masteries and runes, an extra 1 per second is useful for paying off the item itself or to supplement passive farming laners, but it's not the end all be all that's going to get you late game items more than a minute or two earlier. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
In solo queue, how often do you (as a support) ward top lane? I see level 2 ganks top so often (red buff level 2 gank, on either side) that are easily avoided with a ward. | ||
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Node
United States2159 Posts
On November 09 2012 04:57 AsnSensation wrote: hmm when I tried to start it, it didnt work Ill look into that before I reinstall windows thx anyway^^ Programs that don't modify the registry can be freely copy/pasted. Every Blizzard game works this way, for instance. I'm not sure what LoL does in this regard, though. I don't understand how you guys don't run out of item slots as support. >.> It's not all that uncommon for me to have something like boots, aegis/shurelya's, a couple of components for the other one, regular ward, vision ward. I'd imagine it's even more likely if you run more than one gp5 item. Granted, I'm probably about to complete an item at that point, but as a support I tend to make my items a little bit at a time.  But more than a couple of times I've found that I don't have enough room to let, say, an oracle's or the last component for my aegis sit in my inventory. I'm probably just doing it wrong. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:47 Prinate wrote: Can you clarify what time period of the ward war you are referring to? I don't want to argue something if it isn't your intent. But like Req said, you're investing about 5 wards in gold for an item that won't really earn you a ward for 12.5 minutes. Since this is dangerously close to "another gp10" discussion, I'd be happy to take this to the math thread and do a hog wrote up when I get off work (hazmat had a question about it for junglers, anyways.) Generally in botlane, wards wins lanes. If you're delaying your gp10 for an additional like 500gold (difference between ruby -> hog, vs ruby->philo stone), as a support, that's essentially a life time, even with taking a little bit of cs from ADC. gp10 is nice from masteries, and runes, but in itself is inadequet in compareison to actual gp10 item. just imagine if one support went philo after ruby, vs a support going straight to hog. who's going to have more coverage the rest of the lane? after hog, you get gp10 500 gold earlier, that means for 500 golds worth of time, you get additional gp10, that hte other support doesn't have. So essentially, you'll have your 2gp10s before they will, and you'll have more wards The discussion between HoG vs Kindlegem is pretty fucking moot, in regards to Support. You'd have to argue the 10% cdr is completely usable by support (cuz cdr as a stat is not used unless spells are constantly cast the second cd is off cooldown, the means, leona would have to use zenith blade EVERYTIME it got straight off cooldown, or blitz using grab off cooldown, for CDR to be a meaninful stat). and that the slight additional health from kindlegem is EQUIVALENT to the 1000-1200 gold made by HoG throughout a 40minute game. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
EDIT: You or your jungler should be carrying oracles by that stage in the game, so you shouldn't need pink wards anymore. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:52 wei2coolman wrote: Generally in botlane, wards wins lanes. If you're delaying your gp10 for an additional like 500gold (difference between ruby -> hog, vs ruby->philo stone), as a support, that's essentially a life time, even with taking a little bit of cs from ADC. The discussion between HoG vs Kindlegem is pretty fucking moot, in regards to Support. You'd have to argue the 10% cdr is completely usable by support (cuz cdr as a stat is not used unless spells are constantly cast the second cd is off cooldown, the means, leona would have to use zenith blade EVERYTIME it got straight off cooldown, or blitz using grab off cooldown, for CDR to be a meaninful stat). and that the slight additional health from kindlegem is EQUIVALENT to the 1000-1200 gold made by HoG throughout a 40minute game. That's assuming you hold a HoG through a 40 minute game and don't upgrade it. More than 75% of the time it gets upgraded to something before it's even brought a return of 500g. Also, CDR is valuable WHEN fighting. If you're playing against an aggressive support that engages on you, that CDR could be the difference between a kill earned or a kill given. It's all situational, I don't see why you're trying to argue otherwise. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:50 Sandster wrote: So you don't buy hog at all, that's fine. But for the 90+% of supports who do go 2x gp5, you can't make a blanket statement of "always philo before hog." Anyway I'm going to try to derail the inevitable gp5 discussion: That I can agree with. In solo queue, how often do you (as a support) ward top lane? I see level 2 ganks top so often (red buff level 2 gank, on either side) that are easily avoided with a ward. As in, use one of your early wards to keep top safe and go bot after? Depends, don't it? Any purple side Red start jungler is going to (or should) gank at 2. If you're blue team, and the enemy jungle is Lee, it can surely help. That said, it depends on your top laner. If they play safe for a while or wait until the jungler shows up elsewhere to get aggressive, they don't need it. If they're playing someone who can escape it (Riven can get away from most early ganks with QQQ and maybe flash), they don't really need it. But if it's like, Darius top and you don't think he's going to be aware of ganks, sure, it's worth investing to make sure the enemy top lane doesn't get FB. Also, depends on how hard the enemy top laner can snowball. Enemy Jax top? Help that laner be as safe as possible or Jax gets out of control. Enemy Nunu top? Well, he gets beefy, but he won't snowball in the same way as Jax/Irelia/etc. | ||
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