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[Patch 1.0.0.150: Shadow Isles] General Discussion - Page…

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spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
November 08 2012 18:14 GMT
#5041
An item design like that just screams "I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO FIX THIS!".
It introduces additional clutter into the game. Bad.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
VirgilSC2
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States6151 Posts
November 08 2012 18:16 GMT
#5042
I think you guys are forgetting the most important part.

SilSol is now going to be 20% more effective.
Clarity Gaming #1 Fan | Avid MTG Grinder | @VirgilSC2
Zess
Profile Joined July 2012
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
November 08 2012 18:17 GMT
#5043
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs
Administrator@TL_Zess
| (• ◡•)|八 (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
November 08 2012 18:17 GMT
#5044
The absorb would be a brilliant mechanic for Viktor, though. Once you reach a certain level/a certain amount of time after you buy the upgrade/after a certain amount of CS or whatever, your augment gets absorbed and it disappears from your inventory.

Hopefully something like that would work for him, but it would probably be pretty OP.
It's your boy Guzma!
VirgilSC2
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States6151 Posts
November 08 2012 18:19 GMT
#5045
Can someone explain to me the problem with implementing a 7th "Ward Slot" that can't hold anything other than wards?
Clarity Gaming #1 Fan | Avid MTG Grinder | @VirgilSC2
SagaZ
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
France3460 Posts
November 08 2012 18:22 GMT
#5046
Items vs wards is a good thing super lategame, I see nothing wrong with making players chose between buy wards to increase map control vs buying an extra item to make their teamfight stronger
Be nice, buy wards and don't feed double buff.
Zess
Profile Joined July 2012
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
November 08 2012 18:28 GMT
#5047
On November 09 2012 03:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Can someone explain to me the problem with implementing a 7th "Ward Slot" that can't hold anything other than wards?

Would make the game really boring since then every player can buy wards at no cost (ADC doens't have to sell dorans, etc)
Administrator@TL_Zess
| (• ◡•)|八 (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
November 08 2012 18:30 GMT
#5048
On November 09 2012 03:17 Requizen wrote:
The absorb would be a brilliant mechanic for Viktor, though. Once you reach a certain level/a certain amount of time after you buy the upgrade/after a certain amount of CS or whatever, your augment gets absorbed and it disappears from your inventory.

Hopefully something like that would work for him, but it would probably be pretty OP.


...what? No.

Doing something like that would mean they need to nerf him. Fuck that. As it is, the ONLY time Viktor falls off is at very very late game full item builds. And even then, he's strong. People complaining about him not having that extra slot don't actually realize how god damn efficient his death augment is throughout the entire game.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
November 08 2012 18:35 GMT
#5049
On November 09 2012 03:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 03:17 Requizen wrote:
The absorb would be a brilliant mechanic for Viktor, though. Once you reach a certain level/a certain amount of time after you buy the upgrade/after a certain amount of CS or whatever, your augment gets absorbed and it disappears from your inventory.

Hopefully something like that would work for him, but it would probably be pretty OP.


...what? No.

Doing something like that would mean they need to nerf him. Fuck that. As it is, the ONLY time Viktor falls off is at very very late game full item builds. And even then, he's strong. People complaining about him not having that extra slot don't actually realize how god damn efficient his death augment is throughout the entire game.

Well, that's just always the complaint. Wouldn't you be happy if your champion could pay 1000g to become even more of a monster late late game? It's not like enough people even play him where he'd become FotM for a long time.
It's your boy Guzma!
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-08 18:52:40
November 08 2012 18:49 GMT
#5050
The augment is weird but it's part of his character. It's not like people don't pick him because "Well at the 45 minute mark he won't be as strong as Xerath." It's also insanely cost efficient.

EDIT: Not every champion needs to become FOTM at some point. Zzitai played Viktor vs WE, and although they lost the game, it wasn't because of Viktor falling off (it was a very close game). He's definitely a viable champ, just not popular for whatever reason.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 08 2012 18:51 GMT
#5051
On November 09 2012 03:35 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 03:30 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On November 09 2012 03:17 Requizen wrote:
The absorb would be a brilliant mechanic for Viktor, though. Once you reach a certain level/a certain amount of time after you buy the upgrade/after a certain amount of CS or whatever, your augment gets absorbed and it disappears from your inventory.

Hopefully something like that would work for him, but it would probably be pretty OP.


...what? No.

Doing something like that would mean they need to nerf him. Fuck that. As it is, the ONLY time Viktor falls off is at very very late game full item builds. And even then, he's strong. People complaining about him not having that extra slot don't actually realize how god damn efficient his death augment is throughout the entire game.

Well, that's just always the complaint. Wouldn't you be happy if your champion could pay 1000g to become even more of a monster late late game? It's not like enough people even play him where he'd become FotM for a long time.


No. You're suggesting that we take a balanced champion and make them overpowered because of misguided player perception. Only the most short-sighted of Viktor fans would be happy about that.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-08 18:52:45
November 08 2012 18:52 GMT
#5052
To be fair, I also haven't seen a Viktor in game (other than like the 2 times I played him) for months now, so I leave it up to you guys who know more about him than me.. I just knew that the slot was something that people used to complain about, thought it would be a cool interaction.
It's your boy Guzma!
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-08 19:06:19
November 08 2012 19:02 GMT
#5053
On November 09 2012 03:09 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:
On November 09 2012 00:01 Requizen wrote:
On November 08 2012 23:54 WaveofShadow wrote:
Wowowowow.
THIS is interesting.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31182511#post31182511

Xypherous really shakes things up in LoL, not always for the better, but at least he's trying to make a big difference.
Makes for a very interesting investment item, though I'm not sure how useful it's REALLY going to be because in order for the regen to be useful you have to get it real early, and the 'aid' passive isn't great at all.

Early game item not slot effective? Make it absorb into the champion.

I kind of like it. If they buff Heal or CV to the point where people start taking them again, it might be a really worthwhile investment on support champs. As he points out later in the thread, it opens up slots for consumables later in the game, so you won't worry as much about the "support with items but no wards", rare as it is.

It may actually be pretty cost effective if it still builds out of Philo. If you get Philo quickly (assists from early kills or your AD allows you to farm a bit), it pays itself off probably far before you hit 14, then you buy Miracle and let it disappear late game so you have another slot for aura/wards.

Edit: this:

Some dude:
Now that i think of it... what's to prevent people from demanding supports just get these disapearing items, boots, and then just telling them to fill up on wards?

Xyph:
People kind of do that now already - so first, you have to solve the ward problem somehow.

I'll.. talk about that later. I should probably sleep or something. Night guys


Ward changes inc?


I really dislike the 3-level thing. Make it "hold for 10 minutes" instead plz.

The fact that it absorbs into champion is fucking full retard. When is riot going to understand, some times strong cost efficiency can out weigh slot efficiency.

Exactly. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what supports need.

Supports have low income. They can't afford to get things that are cost-inefficient but slot-efficient because they aren't going to finish that many items, but don't have gold to waste. Items slated for supports should be cost-efficient but slot-inefficient, because they will be good, but impractical for non-supports to get (because the slot-inefficiency becomes prohibitive for non-supports very quickly mid/late-game).

On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs

Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period.

On November 09 2012 03:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Can someone explain to me the problem with implementing a 7th "Ward Slot" that can't hold anything other than wards?

Because ward vs. 6th item is an important, non-trivial mechanic lategame. Having to choose between wards and a 6th item is an important choice lategame. People advocating for a ward slot are lazy and don't want to think lategame--they just want to have their cake and eat it too.
Moderator
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-08 19:08:40
November 08 2012 19:06 GMT
#5054
I feel like the whole 'absorbing the item into champ' mechanic would unnecessarily confuse too many players "hey, where did my elisa's miracle go?"

A way they could appease the viktor complainers would be to give an upgrade to the upgraded augments, that is very cost inefficient (maybe you can add a second augment's stats to your original for 2000g?)

edit: and then gain a hidden passive where if he kills jayce after level 16 he can get all three augments in a single item huehue
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
November 08 2012 19:08 GMT
#5055
On November 09 2012 03:52 Requizen wrote:
To be fair, I also haven't seen a Viktor in game (other than like the 2 times I played him) for months now, so I leave it up to you guys who know more about him than me.. I just knew that the slot was something that people used to complain about, thought it would be a cool interaction.

It's more annoying when your build revolves around drings (quickly slot-starved, I have to stop buying wards in the midgame unless I sell a ring because of the components, or I just cut corners with my items and then I lose on his midgame power) than late game actually.

It's... well, think of it as "I'd like a bit more of X' rather than "I really wish I didn't have the augment", come late game. "The slow from rylai would be cool / if I had void staff I'd do more damage to the tanks / with Grail I could poke more". Swain's a bit like that I think because there are so much AP items that are good on him, that 6 slots isn't enough.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Zess
Profile Joined July 2012
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
November 08 2012 19:08 GMT
#5056
On November 09 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs

Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period.

Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 03:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Can someone explain to me the problem with implementing a 7th "Ward Slot" that can't hold anything other than wards?

Because ward vs. 6th item is an important, non-trivial mechanic lategame. Having to choose between wards and a 6th item is an important choice lategame. People advocating for a ward slot are lazy and don't want to think lategame--they just want to have their cake and eat it too.


I believe Xyph's motive was to allow supports to go to 6 items instead of 5 items + wards. So incorporating wards stock into the item would be a better solution to the problem being addressed instead of making an item that every champion can use.

I'm not arguing that ward slot inefficiency IS indeed a problem though.
Administrator@TL_Zess
| (• ◡•)|八 (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 08 2012 19:11 GMT
#5057
On November 09 2012 04:08 xes wrote:
I believe Xyph's motive was to allow supports to go to 6 items instead of 5 items + wards. So incorporating wards stock into the item would be a better solution to the problem being addressed instead of making an item that every champion can use.

I'm not arguing that ward slot inefficiency IS indeed a problem though.

Since when has that ever been a problem for supports though?

2xgp10+boots+2 aura items->build gp10s into things. How often is it that you finish ALL of that in a game as a support? It's not all that often that a support gets so late into the game that they need to decide between the 6th item and the wards.

He's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Moderator
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
November 08 2012 19:13 GMT
#5058
Yeah I've had all of maybe one game ever where I got a "full" item build as a support.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
November 08 2012 19:13 GMT
#5059
On November 09 2012 04:02 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 03:09 wei2coolman wrote:
On November 09 2012 02:52 Sufficiency wrote:
On November 09 2012 00:01 Requizen wrote:
On November 08 2012 23:54 WaveofShadow wrote:
Wowowowow.
THIS is interesting.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31182511#post31182511

Xypherous really shakes things up in LoL, not always for the better, but at least he's trying to make a big difference.
Makes for a very interesting investment item, though I'm not sure how useful it's REALLY going to be because in order for the regen to be useful you have to get it real early, and the 'aid' passive isn't great at all.

Early game item not slot effective? Make it absorb into the champion.

I kind of like it. If they buff Heal or CV to the point where people start taking them again, it might be a really worthwhile investment on support champs. As he points out later in the thread, it opens up slots for consumables later in the game, so you won't worry as much about the "support with items but no wards", rare as it is.

It may actually be pretty cost effective if it still builds out of Philo. If you get Philo quickly (assists from early kills or your AD allows you to farm a bit), it pays itself off probably far before you hit 14, then you buy Miracle and let it disappear late game so you have another slot for aura/wards.

Edit: this:

Some dude:
Now that i think of it... what's to prevent people from demanding supports just get these disapearing items, boots, and then just telling them to fill up on wards?

Xyph:
People kind of do that now already - so first, you have to solve the ward problem somehow.

I'll.. talk about that later. I should probably sleep or something. Night guys


Ward changes inc?


I really dislike the 3-level thing. Make it "hold for 10 minutes" instead plz.

The fact that it absorbs into champion is fucking full retard. When is riot going to understand, some times strong cost efficiency can out weigh slot efficiency.

Exactly. It's the exact OPPOSITE of what supports need.

Supports have low income. They can't afford to get things that are cost-inefficient but slot-efficient because they aren't going to finish that many items, but don't have gold to waste. Items slated for supports should be cost-efficient but slot-inefficient, because they will be good, but impractical for non-supports to get (because the slot-inefficiency becomes prohibitive for non-supports very quickly mid/late-game).

Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 03:17 xes wrote:
A better solution to support items being slot inefficient to prevent everyone buying, but also giving them room for wards would be like a support wriggles. Takes up a slot but still gives you wards, say it builds up to a max of N in T time similar to teemo shrooms or corki bombs

Support items SHOULD be slot-inefficient. Because supports have a better time dealing with slot-inefficiency simply by nature of the fact that they have less gold, period.

Another issue i have with this item is that it's not even that great for support. Even in modern meta play, supports are starting to get hog before philo, meaning supports are finding that upfront stats, are way more useful in botlane play, than sustain. so all the sustain stats this gives, although pretty good, isn't exactly what a support needs. Sure, there's the 20% cdr on clairvoyance/revive/heal. Of which no support takes anymore. Heal is relegated to ADC (and even adc's are not running heal anymore). Revive is still useless. Clairvoyance, is a great skill, but the strength in clairvoyance is in its super early game (lvl 1 fights, and lvl 2-3 invades), and lategame (when everyone has oracles and the game is close, ergo anyone can get baron). The long cd on current clairvoyance only affects its early game, late game (engagements happen every few minutes, when Clairvoyance is always off CD for key baron engagements or objectives). So you're not gettign this item til mid game, so its strength in early game doesn't get magnified at all. Still relegating clairvoyance to a pretty much useless summoner until lategame (where the 20% cdr isn't really that useful).

Also, you're delaying shurelya's and aotl, and what not, to get this item.
liftlift > tsm
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
November 08 2012 19:15 GMT
#5060
Didn't they mention a support-income stream in s3? I wonder if it will actually work or it will be like gp10 and every class will benefit anyway

They should just spill the beans on everything they're planning instead of releasing tidbits one at a time so we can try to apply them to the context of the game as of s2 and drawing wrong conclusions :<
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