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On November 09 2012 05:55 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 05:52 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 05:47 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:33 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 05:29 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:13 Sandster wrote:
Because you said with such affirmation: "Anyone who buys a certain gp5 item before a different gp5 item needs to be hit in the head." Why? Does Philo give more gold than HoG or something? It's perfectly fine to start boots -> HoG against certain lanes. Stop projecting a strawman argument and then defending it. I said I have no problem with ruby, you even made a similar argument against the kindlegem post. And yes, Philo does "basically" give more gold, it you are a support that will use health and mana regen. Philo gives extra value for its cost, in addition to the gp10. HoG gives you 20 health (50g value) for 350g with the gp10. One gives gp10 as a bonus, the other makes you pay for the deficit. What logic says to rush the debt when you can have all of its practical benefit for the ruby? The time between getting philo, from a boots->ruby crystal start. is LONG in comparison to boots->ruby to HoG. The early gp10 from HoG, compared to late gp10 from philo, can be the difference between winning the ward war, or losing it. Also, you can often compensate for lack of sustain w/ pots. you can't do the same for upfront health. Can you clarify what time period of the ward war you are referring to? I don't want to argue something if it isn't your intent. But like Req said, you're investing about 5 wards in gold for an item that won't really earn you a ward for 12.5 minutes. Since this is dangerously close to "another gp10" discussion, I'd be happy to take this to the math thread and do a hog wrote up when I get off work (hazmat had a question about it for junglers, anyways.) Generally in botlane, wards wins lanes. If you're delaying your gp10 for an additional like 500gold (difference between ruby -> hog, vs ruby->philo stone), as a support, that's essentially a life time, even with taking a little bit of cs from ADC. The discussion between HoG vs Kindlegem is pretty fucking moot, in regards to Support. You'd have to argue the 10% cdr is completely usable by support (cuz cdr as a stat is not used unless spells are constantly cast the second cd is off cooldown, the means, leona would have to use zenith blade EVERYTIME it got straight off cooldown, or blitz using grab off cooldown, for CDR to be a meaninful stat). and that the slight additional health from kindlegem is EQUIVALENT to the 1000-1200 gold made by HoG throughout a 40minute game. That's assuming you hold a HoG through a 40 minute game and don't upgrade it. More than 75% of the time it gets upgraded to something before it's even brought a return of 500g. Also, CDR is valuable WHEN fighting. If you're playing against an aggressive support that engages on you, that CDR could be the difference between a kill earned or a kill given. It's all situational, I don't see why you're trying to argue otherwise.
When dat fuck do supports use HoG into another item? I mean, locket of iron solari is good, but it's a 3rd core item at best (after shurelya's and aotl). And by then, it's probably 1hour into the game....
and I didn't say the 10% cdr was useless, but rather you'd have to justify the 1000-1200 cost difference.
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The only time I see pros turn a ruby into kindlegem instead of HoG is because they didn't plan on buying HoG anyways because they went philo first. I don't think there is a good argument for buying kindlegem instead of HoG when you plan on getting HoG and philo anyways and want the HP buffer so you get HoG first.
Do I want double GP10?
-> Yes, Do I need the HP buffer?
--> Yes, HoG first
If you need the HP buffer buying a ruby and then holding on to it to buy philo later is going to make income during laning really painful unless you're getting lots of kills.
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On November 09 2012 05:52 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 05:47 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:33 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 05:29 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:13 Sandster wrote:
Because you said with such affirmation: "Anyone who buys a certain gp5 item before a different gp5 item needs to be hit in the head." Why? Does Philo give more gold than HoG or something? It's perfectly fine to start boots -> HoG against certain lanes. Stop projecting a strawman argument and then defending it. I said I have no problem with ruby, you even made a similar argument against the kindlegem post. And yes, Philo does "basically" give more gold, it you are a support that will use health and mana regen. Philo gives extra value for its cost, in addition to the gp10. HoG gives you 20 health (50g value) for 350g with the gp10. One gives gp10 as a bonus, the other makes you pay for the deficit. What logic says to rush the debt when you can have all of its practical benefit for the ruby? The time between getting philo, from a boots->ruby crystal start. is LONG in comparison to boots->ruby to HoG. The early gp10 from HoG, compared to late gp10 from philo, can be the difference between winning the ward war, or losing it. Also, you can often compensate for lack of sustain w/ pots. you can't do the same for upfront health. Can you clarify what time period of the ward war you are referring to? I don't want to argue something if it isn't your intent. But like Req said, you're investing about 5 wards in gold for an item that won't really earn you a ward for 12.5 minutes. Since this is dangerously close to "another gp10" discussion, I'd be happy to take this to the math thread and do a hog wrote up when I get off work (hazmat had a question about it for junglers, anyways.) Generally in botlane, wards wins lanes. If you're delaying your gp10 for an additional like 500gold (difference between ruby -> hog, vs ruby->philo stone), as a support, that's essentially a life time, even with taking a little bit of cs from ADC. gp10 is nice from masteries, and runes, but in itself is inadequet in compareison to actual gp10 item. just imagine if one support went philo after ruby, vs a support going straight to hog. who's going to have more coverage the rest of the lane? after hog, you get gp10 500 gold earlier, that means for 500 golds worth of time, you get additional gp10, that hte other support doesn't have. So essentially, you'll have your 2gp10s before they will, and you'll have more wards The discussion between HoG vs Kindlegem is pretty fucking moot, in regards to Support. You'd have to argue the 10% cdr is completely usable by support (cuz cdr as a stat is not used unless spells are constantly cast the second cd is off cooldown, the means, leona would have to use zenith blade EVERYTIME it got straight off cooldown, or blitz using grab off cooldown, for CDR to be a meaninful stat). and that the slight additional health from kindlegem is EQUIVALENT to the 1000-1200 gold made by HoG throughout a 40minute game.
10% CDR is way better on any support with a heal, defensive ability, or CC, all of which are going to be spammed on cooldown in fights and possibly for large stints in lane. Even 1 second less CD on Raka or Taric heal can save more lives than 20 health from HoG, not to mention a faster Shurelya is more important to your team than your gold generation ever will be. The gold made by HoG over a 40 minute game will get you about a Cloth and the combine for Aegis, it's not really that impressive considering you've waited 40 minutes for that buildup.
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On November 09 2012 05:52 wei2coolman wrote:
Generally in botlane, wards wins lanes.
never seen it come down to wards...
of course it depends on who the supports are and what role they are, and i understand that warding is important, but in my experience it's not often that bot lane is won because of wards.
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I want to try to play a new mid laner. Thinking about the following right now:
- Swain? (Ignite nerf = Swain buff?)
- Viktor? (because everyone knows Viktor is secret OP)
- Xerath? (tons of damage)
- Malzahar?
Any suggestions?
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I'm not sure what I think about the new absorption mechanic, but I like that they are trying new things. Even if it is a bust, Riot will have at least given it a chance live rather than theory crafting it to death. Sure it has the potential to suck for supports, or be overpowered for top laners, but for me, trying it out is always better than just talking about it.
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On November 09 2012 06:00 xes wrote:
The only time I see pros turn a ruby into kindlegem instead of HoG is because they didn't plan on buying HoG anyways because they went philo first. I don't think there is a good argument for buying kindlegem instead of HoG when you plan on getting HoG and philo anyways and want the HP buffer so you get HoG first.
Do I want double GP10?
-> Yes, Do I need the HP buffer?
--> Yes, HoG first
If you need the HP buffer buying a ruby and then holding on to it to buy philo later is going to make income during laning really painful unless you're getting lots of kills.
Right, but most people don't buy HoG anyway is what I'm saying. Not that you should go Kindle->Philo->Hog, but Kindle->Philo->anything else.
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On November 09 2012 06:03 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to try to play a new mid laner. Thinking about the following right now:
- Swain? (Ignite nerf = Swain buff?)
- Viktor? (because everyone knows Viktor is secret OP)
- Xerath?
- Malzahar?
Any suggestions?
What's your pool right now? I'd pick ones with different weaknesses/strengths than your current champs.
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On November 09 2012 06:01 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 05:52 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 05:47 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:33 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 05:29 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:13 Sandster wrote:
Because you said with such affirmation: "Anyone who buys a certain gp5 item before a different gp5 item needs to be hit in the head." Why? Does Philo give more gold than HoG or something? It's perfectly fine to start boots -> HoG against certain lanes. Stop projecting a strawman argument and then defending it. I said I have no problem with ruby, you even made a similar argument against the kindlegem post. And yes, Philo does "basically" give more gold, it you are a support that will use health and mana regen. Philo gives extra value for its cost, in addition to the gp10. HoG gives you 20 health (50g value) for 350g with the gp10. One gives gp10 as a bonus, the other makes you pay for the deficit. What logic says to rush the debt when you can have all of its practical benefit for the ruby? The time between getting philo, from a boots->ruby crystal start. is LONG in comparison to boots->ruby to HoG. The early gp10 from HoG, compared to late gp10 from philo, can be the difference between winning the ward war, or losing it. Also, you can often compensate for lack of sustain w/ pots. you can't do the same for upfront health. Can you clarify what time period of the ward war you are referring to? I don't want to argue something if it isn't your intent. But like Req said, you're investing about 5 wards in gold for an item that won't really earn you a ward for 12.5 minutes. Since this is dangerously close to "another gp10" discussion, I'd be happy to take this to the math thread and do a hog wrote up when I get off work (hazmat had a question about it for junglers, anyways.) Generally in botlane, wards wins lanes. If you're delaying your gp10 for an additional like 500gold (difference between ruby -> hog, vs ruby->philo stone), as a support, that's essentially a life time, even with taking a little bit of cs from ADC. gp10 is nice from masteries, and runes, but in itself is inadequet in compareison to actual gp10 item. just imagine if one support went philo after ruby, vs a support going straight to hog. who's going to have more coverage the rest of the lane? after hog, you get gp10 500 gold earlier, that means for 500 golds worth of time, you get additional gp10, that hte other support doesn't have. So essentially, you'll have your 2gp10s before they will, and you'll have more wards The discussion between HoG vs Kindlegem is pretty fucking moot, in regards to Support. You'd have to argue the 10% cdr is completely usable by support (cuz cdr as a stat is not used unless spells are constantly cast the second cd is off cooldown, the means, leona would have to use zenith blade EVERYTIME it got straight off cooldown, or blitz using grab off cooldown, for CDR to be a meaninful stat). and that the slight additional health from kindlegem is EQUIVALENT to the 1000-1200 gold made by HoG throughout a 40minute game. 10% CDR is way better on any support with a heal, defensive ability, or CC, all of which are going to be spammed on cooldown in fights and possibly for large stints in lane. Even 1 second less CD on Raka or Taric heal can save more lives than 20 health from HoG, not to mention a faster Shurelya is more important to your team than your gold generation ever will be. The gold made by HoG over a 40 minute game will get you about a Cloth and the combine for Aegis, it's not really that impressive considering you've waited 40 minutes for that buildup.
Did you not see me preface that cdr, has to justify the opportunity cost of gp10 of hog.
The lack of gold from not getting HoG also means, no aegis at all then.
On November 09 2012 06:03 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:00 xes wrote:
The only time I see pros turn a ruby into kindlegem instead of HoG is because they didn't plan on buying HoG anyways because they went philo first. I don't think there is a good argument for buying kindlegem instead of HoG when you plan on getting HoG and philo anyways and want the HP buffer so you get HoG first.
Do I want double GP10?
-> Yes, Do I need the HP buffer?
--> Yes, HoG first
If you need the HP buffer buying a ruby and then holding on to it to buy philo later is going to make income during laning really painful unless you're getting lots of kills. Right, but most people don't buy HoG anyway is what I'm saying. Not that you should go Kindle->Philo->Hog, but Kindle->Philo->anything else.
Except, hog is the most bought item in the game................
Yes in a straight up comparison, kindle is better than hog, especially in comparison to farm values with top laners, and what not. But when we're talking about a low economy of supports, gp10 becomes far more valuable, and its worth is magnified.
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On November 09 2012 06:03 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:03 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to try to play a new mid laner. Thinking about the following right now:
- Swain? (Ignite nerf = Swain buff?)
- Viktor? (because everyone knows Viktor is secret OP)
- Xerath?
- Malzahar?
Any suggestions? What's your pool right now? I'd pick ones with different weaknesses/strengths than your current champs.
My pool doesn't really matter much tbh. So long as it is reasonably fun to play and reasonably powerful (like, not Karma-level) I am willing to play.
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On November 09 2012 06:04 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:03 Requizen wrote:On November 09 2012 06:00 xes wrote:
The only time I see pros turn a ruby into kindlegem instead of HoG is because they didn't plan on buying HoG anyways because they went philo first. I don't think there is a good argument for buying kindlegem instead of HoG when you plan on getting HoG and philo anyways and want the HP buffer so you get HoG first.
Do I want double GP10?
-> Yes, Do I need the HP buffer?
--> Yes, HoG first
If you need the HP buffer buying a ruby and then holding on to it to buy philo later is going to make income during laning really painful unless you're getting lots of kills. Right, but most people don't buy HoG anyway is what I'm saying. Not that you should go Kindle->Philo->Hog, but Kindle->Philo->anything else. Except, hog is the most bought item in the game..................................
Also going Kindle->Philo blows. You are so poor T_T
HoG->Philo gives you an extra ward ever 2.5 mins while you are waiting on Philo.
Kindle->Philo gives you 10% CDR
Ruby->Philo->Kindle is probably better than Kindle->Philo tbh
Even at 1400 elo, the difference between coming back to lane with 1/2 wards and 2/3 wards is huge. There have been plenty of times where I got greedy and picked up a "bigger" item and then felt like, "fuck, I should've just bought wards"
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Well you said it yourself, Viktor is secret OP!
But why the hate for Karma 
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On November 09 2012 06:09 Sandster wrote:Well you said it yourself, Viktor is secret OP! But why the hate for Karma
I actually own Karma. She is just too awkward to play. She can shove the lane, but she has short range, a poor early game, and a very poor late game.
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On November 09 2012 06:04 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:01 Requizen wrote:On November 09 2012 05:52 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 05:47 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:33 wei2coolman wrote:On November 09 2012 05:29 Prinate wrote:On November 09 2012 05:13 Sandster wrote:
Because you said with such affirmation: "Anyone who buys a certain gp5 item before a different gp5 item needs to be hit in the head." Why? Does Philo give more gold than HoG or something? It's perfectly fine to start boots -> HoG against certain lanes. Stop projecting a strawman argument and then defending it. I said I have no problem with ruby, you even made a similar argument against the kindlegem post. And yes, Philo does "basically" give more gold, it you are a support that will use health and mana regen. Philo gives extra value for its cost, in addition to the gp10. HoG gives you 20 health (50g value) for 350g with the gp10. One gives gp10 as a bonus, the other makes you pay for the deficit. What logic says to rush the debt when you can have all of its practical benefit for the ruby? The time between getting philo, from a boots->ruby crystal start. is LONG in comparison to boots->ruby to HoG. The early gp10 from HoG, compared to late gp10 from philo, can be the difference between winning the ward war, or losing it. Also, you can often compensate for lack of sustain w/ pots. you can't do the same for upfront health. Can you clarify what time period of the ward war you are referring to? I don't want to argue something if it isn't your intent. But like Req said, you're investing about 5 wards in gold for an item that won't really earn you a ward for 12.5 minutes. Since this is dangerously close to "another gp10" discussion, I'd be happy to take this to the math thread and do a hog wrote up when I get off work (hazmat had a question about it for junglers, anyways.) Generally in botlane, wards wins lanes. If you're delaying your gp10 for an additional like 500gold (difference between ruby -> hog, vs ruby->philo stone), as a support, that's essentially a life time, even with taking a little bit of cs from ADC. gp10 is nice from masteries, and runes, but in itself is inadequet in compareison to actual gp10 item. just imagine if one support went philo after ruby, vs a support going straight to hog. who's going to have more coverage the rest of the lane? after hog, you get gp10 500 gold earlier, that means for 500 golds worth of time, you get additional gp10, that hte other support doesn't have. So essentially, you'll have your 2gp10s before they will, and you'll have more wards The discussion between HoG vs Kindlegem is pretty fucking moot, in regards to Support. You'd have to argue the 10% cdr is completely usable by support (cuz cdr as a stat is not used unless spells are constantly cast the second cd is off cooldown, the means, leona would have to use zenith blade EVERYTIME it got straight off cooldown, or blitz using grab off cooldown, for CDR to be a meaninful stat). and that the slight additional health from kindlegem is EQUIVALENT to the 1000-1200 gold made by HoG throughout a 40minute game. 10% CDR is way better on any support with a heal, defensive ability, or CC, all of which are going to be spammed on cooldown in fights and possibly for large stints in lane. Even 1 second less CD on Raka or Taric heal can save more lives than 20 health from HoG, not to mention a faster Shurelya is more important to your team than your gold generation ever will be. The gold made by HoG over a 40 minute game will get you about a Cloth and the combine for Aegis, it's not really that impressive considering you've waited 40 minutes for that buildup. Did you not see me preface that cdr, has to justify the opportunity cost of gp10 of hog. The lack of gold from not getting HoG also means, no aegis at all then.
Er, no it doesn't? If you have Philo, Runes, and Masteries giving you gp5, is that 1 gold per second the thing that keeps you from getting an Aegis? Doubtful.
Buying HoG means you push back Aegis by 825 gold as opposed to just a flat Ruby. If you sit on a Ruby, you don't need to buy another one for the Aegis part, and you don't spend the 350 on top of that. It takes HoG ~13.75 minutes to gain 825 gold (i.e., paying itself off). That's not getting you an Aegis any faster at all. You'll probably end up affording an Aegis before it pays itself off, meaning you could have skipped it completely and gotten an Aegis anyway.
Edit: even longer, I thought it was 5 gold per 5, it's 5 gold per 10. It takes 27.5 minutes to pay itself off. Considering you can't usually get it til 10 minutes (at the earliest, really), it's not making ANY money in that supposed 40 minute game you're talking about.
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On November 09 2012 06:11 Requizen wrote:
Edit: even longer, I thought it was 5 gold per 5, it's 5 gold per 10. It takes 27.5 minutes to pay itself off. Considering you can't usually get it til 10 minutes (at the earliest, really), it's not making ANY money in that supposed 40 minute game you're talking about.
It only takes ~11 mins for HoG to pay enough that you are buying the HP at a cost efficient gold level. After that it is free money. On supports, you get no money so the tiny HP from a HoG is still something, esp for supports like alistar/taric/leona
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On November 09 2012 06:03 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to try to play a new mid laner. Thinking about the following right now:
- Swain? (Ignite nerf = Swain buff?)
- Viktor? (because everyone knows Viktor is secret OP)
- Xerath? (tons of damage)
- Malzahar?
Any suggestions?
Diana, Kassadin, Ahri
I think I like bouncing around too much O-o
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Well, TPA_Mistake believes that if you run the GP10 masteries, you should run 1 GP10 item; otherwise run 2.
Personally I think whether or not you should get both HoG and philo also depends on your support. Nowadays I never get HoG on Janna unless I feel it's a game that I *really* need to build Locket of the Iron Solari (which is rare), because I want to get my Aegis faster and survivability is not a big issue for Janna.
Also, instead of getting a Kindlegem, you *could* get Ruby Crystal + Cloth Armor instead (475 + 300 = 775). This provides WAY more tankiness than a Kindlegem.
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On November 09 2012 06:20 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:03 Sufficiency wrote:
I want to try to play a new mid laner. Thinking about the following right now:
- Swain? (Ignite nerf = Swain buff?)
- Viktor? (because everyone knows Viktor is secret OP)
- Xerath? (tons of damage)
- Malzahar?
Any suggestions? Diana, Kassadin, Ahri I think I like bouncing around too much O-o
I already have those 
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the argument, isn't about getting hog, or not getting hog.
the argument is should hog be bought before philo? (especially if the situation calls for early health)
Do you really find it justified to go Ruby for health. Then go straight to philo (800 gold away), then not even get a 2nd gp10, and just go straight to aotl?
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On November 09 2012 06:03 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:00 xes wrote:
The only time I see pros turn a ruby into kindlegem instead of HoG is because they didn't plan on buying HoG anyways because they went philo first. I don't think there is a good argument for buying kindlegem instead of HoG when you plan on getting HoG and philo anyways and want the HP buffer so you get HoG first.
Do I want double GP10?
-> Yes, Do I need the HP buffer?
--> Yes, HoG first
If you need the HP buffer buying a ruby and then holding on to it to buy philo later is going to make income during laning really painful unless you're getting lots of kills. Right, but most people don't buy HoG anyway is what I'm saying. Not that you should go Kindle->Philo->Hog, but Kindle->Philo->anything else.
i think you're pretty wrong here, if supports decide to go 1Gp /5 only they I saw them purchase HoG in favour of Philo 99% of the time ( probably 100 but I dont want to be completely wrong haha) and rush zekes/Aegis
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EPT
