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On October 19 2012 05:59 robertdinh wrote:
Riot could fix these kinda issues if they truly cared about the state of their game as an e-sport... but it serves them better to release their new champs as OP as possible so people buy them up like hot cakes.
I disagree with pretty much your entire post, but I'm going to just address this point because it's something I see parroted a lot everywhere.
Releasing new champs on the OP side of things makes a lot of sense not only from the business standpoint, but from a development/balance standpoint, as well. Obviously, if a champion is OP on release, a lot of people will want to insta-buy, some with RP, to take advantage of said champ.
However, on the other hand, releasing a champ to be on the OP side of things is extremely helpful for development of the champion. If Riot releases a champion that's utter trash or simply "average" then no one will play said champ. It then becomes extremely hard to gather sufficient data about that champion through games since no one wants to play that champion. Balancing that champion becomes really difficult too since it's hard to gauge how much the balance changes affected the champion. Riot has had a history of stealth buffing champions to the point where these champions explode and become FOTM OP. These champions were able to be stealth buffed to OP status since no one ever plays them due to a conception that they're weak since they were such shit on release. Examples: Lee Sin and Cassiopeia. Both were pretty crappy on release, but then Riot handed them buffs after buffs and they suddenly became OP FOTM. You then also have shit like Karma and Sejuani. These champions have potentially strong kits, but the numbers are just total trash. Thus no one plays them and Riot has next to no data/incentive to balance them.
It's not only LoL that does this. Icefrog does this in DotA, as well. Even with Icefrog's much much slower rate of patching, whenever DotA releases new heroes, those heroes tend to be soooooooooooo OP. They get toned down bit by bit. Both Valve/Icefrog and Riot avoid screwing the competitive scene despite releasing OP heroes/champs by simply disabling them for competitive play until they're considered more "balanced" and tested.
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United States37500 Posts
People trying to reason with robertdinh?
hivemind too kind...
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On October 18 2012 03:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
LoL is a good example of accessibility done right - much like UMvC3, which let terrible players feel like they're in control through a much easier combo system. And like Marvel, the easier system hides exquisitely deep gameplay at high levels. Pretty easy to see LoL as a noob game (or to see UMvC3 as a noob successor to Marvel 2), but when you really play both games, you find out quickly how wrong that perspective is.
I wonder if we ever stop pointing out terrible/noob players over and over again. it feels like gaming racism. Why can't we just be happy that we are all big community of gamers and happen to have fun together in a very good game LoL?
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On October 20 2012 05:32 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 03:59 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
LoL is a good example of accessibility done right - much like UMvC3, which let terrible players feel like they're in control through a much easier combo system. And like Marvel, the easier system hides exquisitely deep gameplay at high levels. Pretty easy to see LoL as a noob game (or to see UMvC3 as a noob successor to Marvel 2), but when you really play both games, you find out quickly how wrong that perspective is. I wonder if we ever stop pointing out terrible/noob players over and over again. it feels like gaming racism. Why can't we just be happy that we are all big community of gamers and happen to have fun together in a very good game LoL?
This man should get some sort of ribbon or medal or something.
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On October 20 2012 05:11 NeoIllusions wrote:
People trying to reason with robertdinh?
hivemind too kind...
We need to research overlord upgrades for our hivemind.
OH WAIT WE DID
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United States47024 Posts
On October 20 2012 05:08 Ryuu314 wrote:
However, on the other hand, releasing a champ to be on the OP side of things is extremely helpful for development of the champion. If Riot releases a champion that's utter trash or simply "average" then no one will play said champ. It then becomes extremely hard to gather sufficient data about that champion through games since no one wants to play that champion. Balancing that champion becomes really difficult too since it's hard to gauge how much the balance changes affected the champion. Riot has had a history of stealth buffing champions to the point where these champions explode and become FOTM OP. These champions were able to be stealth buffed to OP status since no one ever plays them due to a conception that they're weak since they were such shit on release. Examples: Lee Sin and Cassiopeia. Both were pretty crappy on release, but then Riot handed them buffs after buffs and they suddenly became OP FOTM. You then also have shit like Karma and Sejuani. These champions have potentially strong kits, but the numbers are just total trash. Thus no one plays them and Riot has next to no data/incentive to balance them.
Also worth noting that the lag time on weak champions getting buffed and then discovered is insanely long.
Consider the case of Lee Sin as mentioned. He was hotfixed at the beginning of April 2011, and by June, he still was not all that played (Lee Sin jungle effectively only came into being in that period as a product of the double-E bug, which was only discovered mid-May and hotfixed at the beginning of June). Only some time after that did he really become really popular, warranting his nerf at the beginning of October--many of which were simply reverts of those early hotfix changes to begin with (W range nerf, Q AD ratio nerf).
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On October 20 2012 06:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 05:08 Ryuu314 wrote:
However, on the other hand, releasing a champ to be on the OP side of things is extremely helpful for development of the champion. If Riot releases a champion that's utter trash or simply "average" then no one will play said champ. It then becomes extremely hard to gather sufficient data about that champion through games since no one wants to play that champion. Balancing that champion becomes really difficult too since it's hard to gauge how much the balance changes affected the champion. Riot has had a history of stealth buffing champions to the point where these champions explode and become FOTM OP. These champions were able to be stealth buffed to OP status since no one ever plays them due to a conception that they're weak since they were such shit on release. Examples: Lee Sin and Cassiopeia. Both were pretty crappy on release, but then Riot handed them buffs after buffs and they suddenly became OP FOTM. You then also have shit like Karma and Sejuani. These champions have potentially strong kits, but the numbers are just total trash. Thus no one plays them and Riot has next to no data/incentive to balance them. Also worth noting that the lag time on weak champions getting buffed and then discovered is insanely long. Consider the case of Lee Sin as mentioned. He was hotfixed at the beginning of April 2011, and by June, he still was not all that played (Lee Sin jungle effectively only came into being in that period as a product of the double-E bug, which was only discovered mid-May and hotfixed at the beginning of June). Only some time after that did he really become really popular, warranting his nerf at the beginning of October--many of which were simply reverts of those early hotfix changes to begin with (W range nerf, Q AD ratio nerf).
One of the problems, from my experience of playing Syndra in particular, is that even if a player has the motivation to master a "weak" new champion (arguable; I still think Syndra is not that *that* weak), his teammate may not have a single clue as to how to play with the said champion.
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Talking about the Korean LoL-scene ... I remember that the former BW progamer from Samsung Khan  Grape switched over to League and was going to become a progamer. BW was already in its decline (and I was actually hoping for Stork to make the switch, too).
Any information what happened to Grape? Still playing LoL? If yes, is he any good? Any appearances at tournaments?
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tbh I think the most succesful people on the League scene with a starcraft background right now are Nal-ra, Reach and Yellow lol
Pretty sure among the current top korean teams there is no ex sc player, might change in the future though if more switch over and as a former slayers fan I hope Coca and Puzzle will be decently succesful.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 20 2012 07:06 AsnSensation wrote:
tbh I think the most succesful people on the League scene with a starcraft background right now are Nal-ra, Reach and Yellow lol
Pretty sure among the current top korean teams there is no ex sc player, might change in the future though if more switch over and as a former slayers fan I hope Coca and Puzzle will be decently succesful.
Tazza
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United States37500 Posts
On October 20 2012 07:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 07:06 AsnSensation wrote:
tbh I think the most succesful people on the League scene with a starcraft background right now are Nal-ra, Reach and Yellow lol
Pretty sure among the current top korean teams there is no ex sc player, might change in the future though if more switch over and as a former slayers fan I hope Coca and Puzzle will be decently succesful. Tazza
wtf
TIL
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seems like Neo also didnt know that so I dont have to be embarassed :D sick to know actually - Watch Ftw
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Its funny because myself + all my friends from DOTA/HoN were the same. Talked about how casual LoL was because you couldn't deny creeps ECT. Then we started playing and haven't touched DOTA since.
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On October 20 2012 07:23 adriftt wrote:
Its funny because myself + all my friends from DOTA/HoN were the same. Talked about how casual LoL was because you couldn't deny creeps ECT. Then we started playing and haven't touched DOTA since.
i teeter-totter a bit between Dota 2 and LoL atm. i only played Dota really casually a few years back, been playing LoL with mates since about March of this year and got into Dota again when i got the beta key in August. I must admit Dota simply has more mechanics and "tricks" if you will to think about e.g. u can manipulate creeps quite a bit, jungle pulling, ancient stacking, secret shops, courier and tp scroll ganking/defending, denying etc. On the other hand LoL is much simpler and easier to understand. My perception of all this is that LoL is not necessarily easier to play, I just think it's SIMPLER. There's a very big difference between something being easy, and something being simple. LoL is incredibly complex at the higher levels and that's why there can be a professional scene. No one would want to watch something that is easy and that they can do themselves. However they WILL watch something that is simple to understand and interpret coz u get the hang of the game really fast, but there is a big difference between well-executed, expert plays compared to average pubs. To me it's like football. simple, but not easy to master.
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On October 20 2012 08:07 fuzzy_panda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 07:23 adriftt wrote:
Its funny because myself + all my friends from DOTA/HoN were the same. Talked about how casual LoL was because you couldn't deny creeps ECT. Then we started playing and haven't touched DOTA since. There's a very big difference between something being easy, and something being simple. LoL is incredibly complex at the higher levels and that's why there can be a professional scene. No one would want to watch something that is easy and that they can do themselves. However they WILL watch something that is simple to understand and interpret coz u get the hang of the game really fast, but there is a big difference between well-executed, expert plays compared to average pubs. To me it's like football. simple, but not easy to master.
well i dont know about that. i really like lol, but i dont see that lol is incredibly complex at any lvl. there are a few things you have to do better at high lvl of play like time the cooldowns (summoners and ultis) and understand which fight you can actually win, but in relation to both of the starcraft games and dota its kinda easy. the most fun (for me atleast) to watch in the lol proscene is that i have the feeling i know the players better than in sc2 (like tsm, clg na/eu and moscow5). till now there arent koreans/asians stomping EVERYONE. you could argue the season2 finals told a different story, but i think the EU teams were pretty descent and if the NA teams would take lol more seriously, the skillgap would close pretty fast.
sry for my bad english, its pretty late here^^
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United States47024 Posts
On October 20 2012 08:25 Acer1791 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 08:07 fuzzy_panda wrote:On October 20 2012 07:23 adriftt wrote:
Its funny because myself + all my friends from DOTA/HoN were the same. Talked about how casual LoL was because you couldn't deny creeps ECT. Then we started playing and haven't touched DOTA since. There's a very big difference between something being easy, and something being simple. LoL is incredibly complex at the higher levels and that's why there can be a professional scene. No one would want to watch something that is easy and that they can do themselves. However they WILL watch something that is simple to understand and interpret coz u get the hang of the game really fast, but there is a big difference between well-executed, expert plays compared to average pubs. To me it's like football. simple, but not easy to master. well i dont know about that. i really like lol, but i dont see that lol is incredibly complex at any lvl. there are a few things you have to do better at high lvl of play like time the cooldowns (summoners and ultis) and understand which fight you can actually win, but in relation to both of the starcraft games and dota its kinda easy. the most fun (for me atleast) to watch in the lol proscene is that i have the feeling i know the players better than in sc2 (like tsm, clg na/eu and moscow5). till now there arent koreans/asians stomping EVERYONE. you could argue the season2 finals told a different story, but i think the EU teams were pretty descent and if the NA teams would take lol more seriously, the skillgap would close pretty fast. sry for my bad english, its pretty late here^^
Korea's only formally had LoL for less than a year.
Give it another 6 months, the gap is going to be enormous.
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They do a good job at keeping the game casual (bot games), ARAM, Dominion... they need to put ARAM into matchmaking though, so we could have some balanced team.
They should also release more fun mode like ARAM. Yes, there are people playing it seriously. But most people just want to have fun. When I play hockey with friends, we just play for fun (in other words, we don't follow the rules or anything).
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Some times I think Yango is LoL's version of Milkis.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 20 2012 10:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Some times I think Yango is LoL's version of Milkis.
...not sure if compliment.
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On October 20 2012 10:57 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 10:48 wei2coolman wrote:
Some times I think Yango is LoL's version of Milkis. ...not sure if compliment.
except more justified*
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EPT
