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Baa?21243 Posts
On September 29 2012 03:09 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 01:10 Mondeezy wrote:
So, just out of curiosity.. if I played duo queue with a friend still doing placement matches (I'm about 1350, right now I'm guessing he's around 1000 or 1050 with his current record), would that be better for him than him trying to solo queue his games? Also, would it impact my rating significantly? Bumping this because no response. Pretty much just curious if duoing with someone in low-elo placement matches as a higher elo will have any significant difference from duoing with someone at my elo.
you average your elo, your friends doesnt play the "newbie island" matches with other low games played ppl, and isntead you guys just get put into a normal q.
if your friend is lower elo than your average elo most likely you will lose a lot because he will feed.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 02:44 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 29 2012 02:18 Requizen wrote:On September 29 2012 02:09 zulu_nation8 wrote:
There's a difference between having a good score or playing well and carrying, you can play well in low elo but if you're there it means you can't carry. I have to respectfully disagree. There are games you cannot carry, and sometimes they happen game after game in a row. You can't carry when you have the only kills on your team and the enemy team has 20+ total. It's just not feasible, that's the way MOBAs work, even bad players who get really far ahead can win by having more items/levels, especially if your team has given up "in their hearts", so to speak, and refuses to try. Just because you can't carry every game doesn't mean you can't carry. It just means luck is luck. if you cant carry your way out of 1300s it means you cant carry period, stop making excuses. How many times do I have to state it? Eventually, yes, you can. I agree, over the long run. But to pretend that you can carry every single game regardless of what your team is or what the enemy team is doing, that's blatantly untrue and facetious. "Carrying" yourself out of a certain bracket isn't something you do in a weekend because you win every single game in a row, it's something that averages out over weeks. Because for every good, standard game you have, there are one or two that are complete luck thanks to one side or the other doing stupid shit all game, and your skill has no influence on the game at all. If you're saying that you've never had streaks of games where it was truly unwinnable (enemy AD or "assassin type" getting fed, afks/feeders), and that even with blatantly shit team members against enemies that aren't completely stupid you carry 100% of the time, you're either lying, or the luckiest individual playing League (or any other randomly matched competitive team game for that matter).
If those "unwinnable" games are enough to significantly slow your Elo gain, then you're already reasonably close to where you're supposed to be. They do happen, but they also pretty much don't matter if you're significantly better than the Elo you're playing at.
If you're significantly far from where you're supposed to be, you will be winning almost 100% of your games.
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On September 29 2012 03:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 03:09 Mondeezy wrote:On September 29 2012 01:10 Mondeezy wrote:
So, just out of curiosity.. if I played duo queue with a friend still doing placement matches (I'm about 1350, right now I'm guessing he's around 1000 or 1050 with his current record), would that be better for him than him trying to solo queue his games? Also, would it impact my rating significantly? Bumping this because no response. Pretty much just curious if duoing with someone in low-elo placement matches as a higher elo will have any significant difference from duoing with someone at my elo. you average your elo, your friends doesnt play the "newbie island" matches with other low games played ppl, and isntead you guys just get put into a normal q. if your friend is lower elo than your average elo most likely you will lose a lot because he will feed.
Thanks Csheep :3 happy birthday brotha!
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Tobi i am sexysaluki i think your point is a bit skewed your a 1700 elo player carrying to 1380 300 elo below your skill and you had a 2k duo partner say req is 1200 elo but plays at 1300 level its possible bad teammates can keep him there, even dur almost lost a game he went like 33-6 in at 380 elo.
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On September 29 2012 02:59 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:On September 29 2012 02:44 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 29 2012 02:18 Requizen wrote:On September 29 2012 02:09 zulu_nation8 wrote:
There's a difference between having a good score or playing well and carrying, you can play well in low elo but if you're there it means you can't carry. I have to respectfully disagree. There are games you cannot carry, and sometimes they happen game after game in a row. You can't carry when you have the only kills on your team and the enemy team has 20+ total. It's just not feasible, that's the way MOBAs work, even bad players who get really far ahead can win by having more items/levels, especially if your team has given up "in their hearts", so to speak, and refuses to try. Just because you can't carry every game doesn't mean you can't carry. It just means luck is luck. if you cant carry your way out of 1300s it means you cant carry period, stop making excuses. How many times do I have to state it? Eventually, yes, you can. I agree, over the long run. But to pretend that you can carry every single game regardless of what your team is or what the enemy team is doing, that's blatantly untrue and facetious. "Carrying" yourself out of a certain bracket isn't something you do in a weekend because you win every single game in a row, it's something that averages out over weeks. Because for every good, standard game you have, there are one or two that are complete luck thanks to one side or the other doing stupid shit all game, and your skill has no influence on the game at all. If you're saying that you've never had streaks of games where it was truly unwinnable (enemy AD or "assassin type" getting fed, afks/feeders), and that even with blatantly shit team members against enemies that aren't completely stupid you carry 100% of the time, you're either lying, or the luckiest individual playing League (or any other randomly matched competitive team game for that matter). i think im like 30-1 not exaggerating duoing with rhavanna/shake from 1400-1700 elo. I'm probably 10-1 or so soloing. There's maybe 1 game out of 10 that's impossible carry but only because I'm not good enough. I've seen 2300 smurfs carry impossible games at 1900, don't think 2k+ should lose any games at 1300s.
I don't think I've ever said that I'm a 2k player. I mentioned before that I'd put myself around 1400, and that's rather generous to myself.
Can a 2k player carry "lost" games at 1100? YES. I don't know how many times I have to agree with that before you stop thinking I'm arguing against it. But I don't have a 2k player's awareness, technical proficiency, or plain game sense. I just don't. I can't carry games where each damage dealer on the enemy team has 4+ kills over me, despite how well I did. I try, I don't think I've agreed to a surrender in about a month (except for double explosions).
I think some people seem to be under the mindset of "either you're trash and can't carry any game at all, or you're 1800+". That's a very closed-minded way to even think about it. You can be patently better than the people you're playing against without having the necessary skill to overcome a massive disadvantage. It's like, imagine that LoL is basketball for a second. If I'm an adult who plays a lot, I have the skills to beat any grade school player in a 1v1 game. That doesn't mean I can beat a junior high team while having the chess club as my teammates. Could Michael Jordan do it? Well, of fucking course. Am I Michael Jordan? Nnnno.
If I was matched at 400 ELO for the next 100 games or so, I'd probably win 99% of my games too. Skill differential does that to a game. It's frustrating, as I said, to be at a point where you outskill the people you're playing with, but not enough to overcome the veritable mountain that your team puts in your way by feeding or making bad calls like roaming the enemy jungle by themselves when we can't see any of them.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 29 2012 03:14 Requizen wrote:
If I was matched at 400 ELO for the next 100 games or so, I'd probably win 99% of my games too. Skill differential does that to a game. It's frustrating, as I said, to be at a point where you outskill the people you're playing with, but not enough to overcome the veritable mountain that your team puts in your way by feeding or making bad calls like roaming the enemy jungle by themselves when we can't see any of them.
I'm going to venture a guess that your memory here is being selective toward the idiots who made bad calls, and you're potentially forgetting those players that played well, or called you out on equally shitty calls.
You get players who are better than you and players that are worse than you in solo queue. But selective memory/self-bias tends to make you remember the guys that sucked and forget/not acknowledge the guys that were better so you feel like you're always playing with people worse than you.
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On September 29 2012 02:54 Requizen wrote:
"Carrying" yourself out of a certain bracket isn't something you do in a weekend because you win every single game in a row, it's something that averages out over weeks. Because for every good, standard game you have, there are one or two that are complete luck thanks to one side or the other doing stupid shit all game, and your skill has no influence on the game at all.
No. If your skill only has any influence at all once every few games, what makes you think you should be at a higher elo?
My skill influences the vast majority of games I play, and I am only (and deservedly) 1300 ELO. I don't have enough skill to single-handedly determine most of my games, but that's exactly because I am where I belong.
You converge to your true ELO bracket very rapidly. If you're several hundred points below your true ELO, you'll carry almost all games, not once every other game. I've seen enough smurfs in my games to be disabused of any excuses for not being at a higher rank.
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I've seen quite a few people who are mechanically better than me, and who have more game knowledge than me, but are stuck at my elo. Generally their biggest problem is that they put down their teammates when stuff goes wrong. This isn't even always full-on raging, it's stuff like saying "gg" when your AD carry gives up first blood, to saying "why would you do that" when mid overextends and dies, or "this akali" when she dies, retreat ping spamming, and and so on. The thing is statements like that almost always causes their teammates to play worse, and then they complain about having shitty teammates all the time. Stuff like that might not be punishable by the tribunal, but it will negatively impact your win rate.
EDIT: also, what's with the "my top elo is 1500 so my true elo is 1500 even though i'm 1300 now, that's just a fluctuation" mindset people have. Your elo could easily fluctuate up as well as down, more likely this guy is 1400 and got lucky at one point.
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On September 29 2012 03:14 Requizen wrote:
Can a 2k player carry "lost" games at 1100? YES. I don't know how many times I have to agree with that before you stop thinking I'm arguing against it. But I don't have a 2k player's awareness, technical proficiency, or plain game sense. I just don't. I can't carry games where each damage dealer on the enemy team has 4+ kills over me, despite how well I did. I try, I don't think I've agreed to a surrender in about a month (except for double explosions).
[...]
If I was matched at 400 ELO for the next 100 games or so, I'd probably win 99% of my games too. Skill differential does that to a game. It's frustrating, as I said, to be at a point where you outskill the people you're playing with, but not enough to overcome the veritable mountain that your team puts in your way by feeding or making bad calls like roaming the enemy jungle by themselves when we can't see any of them.
What is the evidence that you outskill the people you're playing with?
What makes you think that they aren't venting the exact same complaints?
They play with exactly the same feeding teammates as you do. Unless you're really the only person in your ELO bracket who isn't a smurf or trolling, it just doesn't add up.
Of course you won't win 99% of the games if you are a 1400 player at 1300. The closer to get to your true ELO, the less dramatic your effect on the game is, but that's exactly as it should be. It's impossible for every person in a five-man team to single-handedly decide the game. But you don't need to, it's enough to have a significant impact.
And I still don't believe your assertion that your skill has no influence on the majority of your games, that sounds like an excuse. Either that or you're really doing something wrong as far as teamfights/late-game play goes.
Edit: Yeah, what the post below mine says. Many people complain about having high KDAs and still losing, but LoL isn't about kill counts, the only kill that counts is the nexus. Calling a good team fight -- especially late-game -- usually has a far larger impact on the game than being a kill or two ahead in lane. (e.g. I've lost many games where our fed AD carry just never was there for team fights; and I've won many games where the initiates of our 2-6 Amumu were the sole reason we crushed the enemy team at every team fight.)
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The "I'm 1300 player can't get out of 1200" argument is total shit because there are plenty of 1800 players who tank to 900 then climb back up to 1800 with something like 90% winrate. If the argument was valid every 1800 player would be stuck at 1700. If you're 1200 and you're consistently beating your lane opponent by some metric and not winning games, either your teamfighting and game sense blows or you have some really terrible "won lane" metric.
Ex:
"I would've won lane but the enemy jungler camped me" = you didn't consider that maybe the enemy jungler has really strong ganks and knows that you have the advantage in the lane matchup so specifically came to camp you because you are being over aggressive.
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easiest way to end all of these arguments is, post replays of games that you think were uncarriable.
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I like to question my winning games instead of my losing games. Sure analyzing your mistakes is a must, but what i prefer is to say "ok i won this game in X min. Could it have ended 5, 10, 15 minutes earlier? Makes them easier to spot for me aswell.
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On September 29 2012 03:25 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 03:14 Requizen wrote:
Can a 2k player carry "lost" games at 1100? YES. I don't know how many times I have to agree with that before you stop thinking I'm arguing against it. But I don't have a 2k player's awareness, technical proficiency, or plain game sense. I just don't. I can't carry games where each damage dealer on the enemy team has 4+ kills over me, despite how well I did. I try, I don't think I've agreed to a surrender in about a month (except for double explosions).
[...]
If I was matched at 400 ELO for the next 100 games or so, I'd probably win 99% of my games too. Skill differential does that to a game. It's frustrating, as I said, to be at a point where you outskill the people you're playing with, but not enough to overcome the veritable mountain that your team puts in your way by feeding or making bad calls like roaming the enemy jungle by themselves when we can't see any of them. What is the evidence that you outskill the people you're playing with? They play with exactly the same feeding teammates as you do. Why are they at the same ELO if you're clearly better? Unless you're really the only person in your ELO bracket who isn't a smurf or trolling, it just doesn't add up. And of course you won't win 99% of the games if you are a 1400 player at 1300. But you don't need to, and that's not what everyone is talking about. Carrying yourself out of low ELO means that you were substantially better than everyone else there, not just a little better. And I still don't believe your assertion that your skill has no influence on the majority of your games, that sounds like a really lame excuse.
My assertion wasn't just in the negative way. There are won games that have nothing to do with your skill level either, I've been in enough to accept that. Games where I'll jungle, none of my ganks will get a kill, and I'll be behind gold and levels because of it, but the enemy team throws lanes anyway, teamfights like shit, and loses. I've also had games where I dominate my lane in both CS and kills, but it didn't really matter because our AD got 11 kills to my 3 and single-handedly 1v3s bot and jungle because Vayne with a BT and PD can do that. In both of those games, my skill didn't matter, but we won anyway. And that, as well, isn't skill based, it's a mostly luck victory because the trolls and afks were on the other side.
Those aren't fun games for me either. I don't bitch about lost games where it's close, we try our hardest, and the enemy team outplays us and gets an advantage. It's not a bad game, and it's a learning experience. Likewise, I don't gloat about games where the enemy team tries to single file into my fed Rengar. It's not indicative of my skill, and I didn't get anything worthwhile out of it. In fact, I'd rather those games didn't even count, because it's not even a win in my book. I don't want to prove myself against people that are playing like shit or intentionally feeding, and I don't want to sit back and accept a loss because those players are on my team. That's all I'm saying.
On September 29 2012 03:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
easiest way to end all of these arguments is, post replays of games that you think were uncarriable.
Someone teach me how to set up LoL replay and I'll do it, or I'll stream one night if I can remember the setup I had for my stream.
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On September 29 2012 01:32 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 01:28 clickrush wrote:y mb some guys of similar skill  . Some of you will do stupid mistakes as well every game, but instead of blaming eachother you will figure out how to make the best of it. It is all about mindset. Isn't that why we made liquidpractice? It always seems like people are either way above my skill level or at my level but never on during my playtime (looking at you Gahlo), so eh. I don't have a consistent enough playtime to make a team anyway :\
I try to play with you Reqipoo, but you're always in games when we're both on. =[
Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 03:31 zulu_nation8 wrote:
easiest way to end all of these arguments is, post replays of games that you think were uncarriable. Someone teach me how to set up LoL replay and I'll do it, or I'll stream one night if I can remember the setup I had for my stream.
Fuck the stream! With the spectator changes we can just daisychain spy! Also, if this gets done I'd like to know ahead of time. I know a few things I KNOW I need to work on, but I feel there's a few things still out of my reach to identify.
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just download lolreplay and keep it on when playing, it saves the replays automatically in spectator mode so you see everything.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Wait so what are we discussing here I'm slightly confused.
Is it that your elo gain slows down as you approach your skill level elo-wise?
Or that a lot of games are not enjoyable because of griefers/afkers?
I don't really have any idea what's going on and I think I'm not the only one
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On September 29 2012 03:39 Scip wrote:
Wait so what are we discussing here I'm slightly confused.
Is it that your elo gain slows down as you approach your skill level elo-wise?
Or that a lot of games are not enjoyable because of griefers/afkers?
I don't really have any idea what's going on and I think I'm not the only one
How reasonable it is to expect a player to carry every game 100 elo below their hypothesized true elo, despite any actions their teammates make.
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You can learn something from games where the enemy AD is 6-0 15 minutes into the game, too. Don't close yourself off from improvement just because the current game is unwinnable (or just hard to win - I've won games from that situation before, because the enemy AD got overconfident and kept getting caught)
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requizen the games at 1.4k arent really different from 1.2k
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United States37500 Posts
On September 29 2012 03:42 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 03:39 Scip wrote:
Wait so what are we discussing here I'm slightly confused.
Is it that your elo gain slows down as you approach your skill level elo-wise?
Or that a lot of games are not enjoyable because of griefers/afkers?
I don't really have any idea what's going on and I think I'm not the only one How reasonable it is to expect a player to carry every game 100 elo below their hypothesized true elo, despite any actions their teammates make.
Not unreasonable at all. In reality, he probably can't carry all the games but a hefty majority should not be a prob. Granted you will need a large sample size of games. Triple digits easily.
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EPT
