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On October 16 2012 01:56 Ketara wrote:
Yeah there are a bunch of mid game items that don't build into anything.
Cloak and Dagger
Eleisa's Miracle
Executioner's Calling
Haunting Guise
Malady
Moonflair Spellblade
Quicksilver Sash
Spirit Visage
Wriggles Lantern
All under 2k gold and don't build into anything. Aside from Wriggles and QSS vs. certain team comps, hardly any of these ever get built by almost anyone.
Except these are all horribly inefficient items in general or at least never efficient enough to justify the slot.
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On October 16 2012 01:52 justiceknight wrote:
Is any1 good at support here? I always rush aegis then frozen heart rather than getting shureyla,when is a good time to get shureyla?
Sellsy is a 2.6k or something support, and has a thread here. To answer your question, support builds are need based, not static. You get shureoias when having the ability to engage / disengage is more important than defensive stats from aegis or offensive stats from zekes. I.e you are far ahead and the other team doesn't want to fight. Get shurelias so it's easier to force a fight. Aegis if you have no problem getting into fights, but need that extra defense. And zekes based on champs and team comp - got a vayne or kog, or ad jungle, top and ad bot? Probably want zekes early
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On October 16 2012 01:57 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 01:56 Ketara wrote:
Yeah there are a bunch of mid game items that don't build into anything.
Cloak and Dagger
Eleisa's Miracle
Executioner's Calling
Haunting Guise
Malady
Moonflair Spellblade
Quicksilver Sash
Spirit Visage
Wriggles Lantern
All under 2k gold and don't build into anything. Aside from Wriggles and QSS vs. certain team comps, hardly any of these ever get built by almost anyone. Except these are all horribly inefficient items in general or at least never efficient enough to justify the slot.
Exactly. They need buffs.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2012 01:57 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 01:56 Ketara wrote:
Yeah there are a bunch of mid game items that don't build into anything.
Cloak and Dagger
Eleisa's Miracle
Executioner's Calling
Haunting Guise
Malady
Moonflair Spellblade
Quicksilver Sash
Spirit Visage
Wriggles Lantern
All under 2k gold and don't build into anything. Aside from Wriggles and QSS vs. certain team comps, hardly any of these ever get built by almost anyone. Except these are all horribly inefficient items in general or at least never efficient enough to justify the slot.
The problem with the ones that aren't used as midgame combat items (basically the ones that aren't Guise, Visage, or Wriggle's) has more to do with the mix of stats provided, rather than their cost-effectiveness. Guise, Visage, and Wriggle's provide well-rounded combinations of core stats, and are all practical and useful enough to see play.
The fundamental problem with the design on the remaining items is that they're too lopsided or give stats that aren't practical in midgame. "Midgame teamfight" items need a mix of basic core stats--you can't expect lopsided items that give specialized stats to be useful as midgame teamfight items because they require you to build up a number of items that work together before they're really effective (e.g. C&D provides AS+Crit, which requires you to invest further in a primary AD item to really be effective). This defeats the purpose of a midgame item because if the item requires you to invest in multiple other items before its effective, it won't be midgame anymore by the time you bring all those disparate components together.
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It'd be really neat if they did something like drop a little bit of AD on Executioners Calling and created a dynamic where sometimes you might want to rush your Vamp scepter into the Exe for mid game teamfights, but in other games you'll want to hold off for the bloodthirster on the same character.
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On October 16 2012 01:57 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 01:56 Ketara wrote:
Yeah there are a bunch of mid game items that don't build into anything.
Cloak and Dagger
Eleisa's Miracle
Executioner's Calling
Haunting Guise
Malady
Moonflair Spellblade
Quicksilver Sash
Spirit Visage
Wriggles Lantern
All under 2k gold and don't build into anything. Aside from Wriggles and QSS vs. certain team comps, hardly any of these ever get built by almost anyone. Except these are all horribly inefficient items in general or at least never efficient enough to justify the slot.
Guise, Sash, Visage, and Lantern are all really good =/
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Actually lantern is the most frequently nerfed item in the game and it's still good lol.
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It doesn't take too much thinking to remember a day when Lantern was, maybe not OP, but built on nearly every top and jungle, and many ADs. People hated it, for multiple reasons. Sustain is boring to some people, others despised the lack of variety, etc.
Honestly, though, I think one of the main issues is that people always need something to bitch about. If it's not GP10s, it's the lack of diversity in AD or AP items, or the lack of strong, cost effective but not slot effective midgame items, or GA being OP, or whatever. As soon as the next item trend picks up, be it just popular or actually OP, we're going to complain about that instead.
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On October 16 2012 02:21 Requizen wrote:
It doesn't take too much thinking to remember a day when Lantern was, maybe not OP, but built on nearly every top and jungle, and many ADs. People hated it, for multiple reasons. Sustain is boring to some people, others despised the lack of variety, etc.
Honestly, though, I think one of the main issues is that people always need something to bitch about. If it's not GP10s, it's the lack of diversity in AD or AP items, or the lack of strong, cost effective but not slot effective midgame items, or GA being OP, or whatever. As soon as the next item trend picks up, be it just popular or actually OP, we're going to complain about that instead.
Please find me somebody that says AP items lack diversity so I can laugh in their faces.
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On October 16 2012 02:27 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 02:21 Requizen wrote:
It doesn't take too much thinking to remember a day when Lantern was, maybe not OP, but built on nearly every top and jungle, and many ADs. People hated it, for multiple reasons. Sustain is boring to some people, others despised the lack of variety, etc.
Honestly, though, I think one of the main issues is that people always need something to bitch about. If it's not GP10s, it's the lack of diversity in AD or AP items, or the lack of strong, cost effective but not slot effective midgame items, or GA being OP, or whatever. As soon as the next item trend picks up, be it just popular or actually OP, we're going to complain about that instead. Please find me somebody that says AP items lack diversity so I can laugh in their faces.
Reading about how "every mid needs DC and it's boring" is one of the reasons I stopped reading the O-Forums a while back. Like I said: people just want to bitch, and seeing DC in 90% of games gives them a reason.
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On October 16 2012 02:27 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 02:21 Requizen wrote:
It doesn't take too much thinking to remember a day when Lantern was, maybe not OP, but built on nearly every top and jungle, and many ADs. People hated it, for multiple reasons. Sustain is boring to some people, others despised the lack of variety, etc.
Honestly, though, I think one of the main issues is that people always need something to bitch about. If it's not GP10s, it's the lack of diversity in AD or AP items, or the lack of strong, cost effective but not slot effective midgame items, or GA being OP, or whatever. As soon as the next item trend picks up, be it just popular or actually OP, we're going to complain about that instead. Please find me somebody that says AP items lack diversity so I can laugh in their faces.
They always buy boots and shit that gives AP like Dcap, abyssal and DFG. No diversity, everything has AP man.
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I'm more annoyed by the lack of cdr, tbh. Well, of course you can always buy cdr boots and visage on a lot of AP champs, but DFG is kinda situationnal (sure it can be built on Ori and Syndra, doesn't mean I'll make it core on them), same with grail, and Morello, well... I dunno, maybe I should give it another try, but I find that I'd pay a lot for its cdr compared to other AP items.
Of course there's still the elixir, and if you hog blue buff you should be set, so maybe being better at grabbing blues and not die till it's run out is my solution.
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On October 16 2012 02:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 01:57 Slayer91 wrote:On October 16 2012 01:56 Ketara wrote:
Yeah there are a bunch of mid game items that don't build into anything.
Cloak and Dagger
Eleisa's Miracle
Executioner's Calling
Haunting Guise
Malady
Moonflair Spellblade
Quicksilver Sash
Spirit Visage
Wriggles Lantern
All under 2k gold and don't build into anything. Aside from Wriggles and QSS vs. certain team comps, hardly any of these ever get built by almost anyone. Except these are all horribly inefficient items in general or at least never efficient enough to justify the slot. Guise, Sash, Visage, and Lantern are all really good =/
Nobody buys items like SV and lantern because they've been nerfed so hard that they're only useful for the sustain really and by the time you get them teamfights are starting to happen. QSS is just something you buy on AD or AP carries against some deadly CC/supress. And guise is pretty good on certain AP casters who want spell pen. However of all the items only QSS is a big "gamechanger" item. The rest of the items are nice but not a huge increase over buying a similar item that gives similar stats.
E.G instead of spirit visage most people will get aegis it helps your team but you lose some cdr and gain armour
instead of lantern people just get phage wards and pots and get a faster trinity force traded for a weaker laning phase but better fighting
instead of guise people rush DFG for magic burst casters now because it's just broken atm
Guise was seeing play on rumble and vlad and the like until bugged DFG showed up and rumble stopped being played
Stanley bought SV+lantern on nidalee when he wanted to push all day because thats what the items are good for. The probably is either the item scales too well into later because sustain+free wards saves so much money or else it's not good enough to buy unless you play to stay top for 40 minutes.
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On October 16 2012 02:38 Alaric wrote:
I'm more annoyed by the lack of cdr, tbh. Well, of course you can always buy cdr boots and visage on a lot of AP champs, but DFG is kinda situationnal (sure it can be built on Ori and Syndra, doesn't mean I'll make it core on them), same with grail, and Morello, well... I dunno, maybe I should give it another try, but I find that I'd pay a lot for its cdr compared to other AP items.
Of course there's still the elixir, and if you hog blue buff you should be set, so maybe being better at grabbing blues and not die till it's run out is my solution.
Grail is fucking amazing on almost every AP champ.
DFG is also really good.
Morello's is a bit meh, but a lot of that I think is because there isn't much of a reason not to take ignite on a lot of mids, which makes the active bad. If taking Ignite was a bit less standard and Morello had maybe like 5 more AP on it, I think it would be a more arguable choice.
Reality is AP Mids have probably the best choices when it comes to item selection. Could be better, but AD Carries and Supports need the theorycrafting way more.
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United States23745 Posts
On October 16 2012 02:52 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 02:38 Alaric wrote:
I'm more annoyed by the lack of cdr, tbh. Well, of course you can always buy cdr boots and visage on a lot of AP champs, but DFG is kinda situationnal (sure it can be built on Ori and Syndra, doesn't mean I'll make it core on them), same with grail, and Morello, well... I dunno, maybe I should give it another try, but I find that I'd pay a lot for its cdr compared to other AP items.
Of course there's still the elixir, and if you hog blue buff you should be set, so maybe being better at grabbing blues and not die till it's run out is my solution. Grail is fucking amazing on almost every AP champ.DFG is also really good. Morello's is a bit meh, but a lot of that I think is because there isn't much of a reason not to take ignite on a lot of mids, which makes the active bad. If taking Ignite was a bit less standard and Morello had maybe like 5 more AP on it, I think it would be a more arguable choice. Reality is AP Mids have probably the best choices when it comes to item selection. Could be better, but AD Carries and Supports need the theorycrafting way more.
It was either Toyz or Rapidstar, but they rushed Grail almost game of the Season 2 Grand Final. It's just such a solid item. Gives you nice stats (90 AP is nothing to sneeze at) and helps a ton if the enemy invades your blue. I mean there are downsides of course, but the same could be said for every item.
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On October 16 2012 02:52 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 02:38 Alaric wrote:
I'm more annoyed by the lack of cdr, tbh. Well, of course you can always buy cdr boots and visage on a lot of AP champs, but DFG is kinda situationnal (sure it can be built on Ori and Syndra, doesn't mean I'll make it core on them), same with grail, and Morello, well... I dunno, maybe I should give it another try, but I find that I'd pay a lot for its cdr compared to other AP items.
Of course there's still the elixir, and if you hog blue buff you should be set, so maybe being better at grabbing blues and not die till it's run out is my solution. Grail is fucking amazing on almost every AP champ. DFG is also really good. Morello's is a bit meh, but a lot of that I think is because there isn't much of a reason not to take ignite on a lot of mids, which makes the active bad. If taking Ignite was a bit less standard and Morello had maybe like 5 more AP on it, I think it would be a more arguable choice. Reality is AP Mids have probably the best choices when it comes to item selection. Could be better, but AD Carries and Supports need the theorycrafting way more.
I wish they made morello's into a support item with an aoe active. No support can survive getting in range for either the Kage's items these days.
Edit: Athenes is a really good item for mids with high mana costs (and nunu). Its main strength is probably in its buildup though. Chalice is really good. It is kinda like if they gave Haunting Guise a strong item to build into. Everyone wants a chalice (except, karthus and manaless champs), but it used to be a dead end. Also, a lot of the "FOTM" champs: Anivia, Ori are very mana hungry. Thus Athene's is FOTM as well. You wont see it much on Gragas and Morgana, I wouldn't think.
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They were both rushing it, every game.
Morello's already is very nearly a support item, but you have no excuse to get it because you can get your CDR from aura items and you can't spare the gold to get any AP. When 3/5ths of your team takes Ignite anyway, suddenly there's no point.
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On October 16 2012 02:39 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 02:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 16 2012 01:57 Slayer91 wrote:On October 16 2012 01:56 Ketara wrote:
Yeah there are a bunch of mid game items that don't build into anything.
Cloak and Dagger
Eleisa's Miracle
Executioner's Calling
Haunting Guise
Malady
Moonflair Spellblade
Quicksilver Sash
Spirit Visage
Wriggles Lantern
All under 2k gold and don't build into anything. Aside from Wriggles and QSS vs. certain team comps, hardly any of these ever get built by almost anyone. Except these are all horribly inefficient items in general or at least never efficient enough to justify the slot. Guise, Sash, Visage, and Lantern are all really good =/ Nobody buys items like SV and lantern because they've been nerfed so hard that they're only useful for the sustain really and by the time you get them teamfights are starting to happen. QSS is just something you buy on AD or AP carries against some deadly CC/supress. And guise is pretty good on certain AP casters who want spell pen. However of all the items only QSS is a big "gamechanger" item. The rest of the items are nice but not a huge increase over buying a similar item that gives similar stats. E.G instead of spirit visage most people will get aegis it helps your team but you lose some cdr and gain armour instead of lantern people just get phage wards and pots and get a faster trinity force traded for a weaker laning phase but better fighting instead of guise people rush DFG for magic burst casters now because it's just broken atm Guise was seeing play on rumble and vlad and the like until bugged DFG showed up and rumble stopped being played Stanley bought SV+lantern on nidalee when he wanted to push all day because thats what the items are good for. The probably is either the item scales too well into later because sustain+free wards saves so much money or else it's not good enough to buy unless you play to stay top for 40 minutes.
So, it sounds like you're saying that SV, lantern, and QSS all have a place where they're useful and probably don't need significant changes? :o
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On October 16 2012 02:38 Alaric wrote:
I'm more annoyed by the lack of cdr, tbh. Well, of course you can always buy cdr boots and visage on a lot of AP champs, but DFG is kinda situationnal (sure it can be built on Ori and Syndra, doesn't mean I'll make it core on them), same with grail, and Morello, well... I dunno, maybe I should give it another try, but I find that I'd pay a lot for its cdr compared to other AP items.
Of course there's still the elixir, and if you hog blue buff you should be set, so maybe being better at grabbing blues and not die till it's run out is my solution.
Generally yes Morello's is only decent if you aren't getting blue (that's why its good on dominion or proving grounds).
for CDR mid Grail and DFG seem like the best options. Not sure about CDR boots, if i build any boots mid besides Sorcs it's Merc Treads in the case of much hard cc. CDR boots are good on vlad, but he's an exception imo. Problem is if you rush cdr boots or visage you are gimping your damage.
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The mundo visage is still built sometimes, but it's mostly an item that you see on some champs that are just so great with the item.
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EPT
