|
On October 16 2012 00:13 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 23:44 TheYango wrote:
Adding another income source to the game won't incentivize giving supports more farm, because for the most part, income distribution is entirely fluid. In fact, it's arguable that the presence of gp10 hinders the development of support farm, because it essentially allows supports to be lazy and just buy gp10 to support their gold need for wards, rather than developing the skill of looking for places to efficiently and unintrusively find farm as a support. Put another way--adding another source of gold to the game still doesn't incentivize supports getting that gold--because with another way of having gold in the game, you still haven't created incentive for the support player in particular to get that gold source, and not the other 4 players. In order for supports to get farm, you have to create a reason for a team to want a farmed support. If you just hand the support gold, it's just going to shift more of the gold they were already getting into the other 4 players, because you haven't created anything for the support to DO with the extra gold.
TBH, I really think this is something that can be addressed in large part through the development of support itemization--that is, supportive team items priced at a price point and slot-efficiency level that actually encourages supports buying them. Items like Aegis and Shurelya's don't really fit this description because for the most part, supports can't get them for a long time and there's not a compelling reason that the support has to buy them, rather than your top laner or jungler (that is, they're not slot-inefficient enough to really be bad buys for non-supports). Rather, the items need to be priced in such a way that they're competitive with gp10 items in price, and can bring enough utility to the table to exceed gp10. If getting such items on your support is a necessity--then supports will have to ditch gp10 to get them. In turn, forcing gp10 out of early support itemization creates the need for further support gold in order to meet the need to buy wards that gp10 previously covered, which in turn pushes up the priority for allocating farm to supports.
"0-CS" supports used to be a problem in DotA (and ironically, was one of the elements that LoL in its inception wished to move away from), but the game developed slowly and smoothly away from them through the addition of key low-cost support itemization, rather than through any total rework of core game mechanics. I like this post. It makes a lot of sense. I would really like to see some better support items. Specifically I'd like to see some support centric items that have AP on them, because there are some supports (Soraka, Janna, Lux) that scale very well with AP, but can't get any AP when they're supporting because the only "support" item that has AP on it is will of the ancients, and you can't have a decent build if you rush a wota anyway. Something like a wriggles copy that gives AP with an active ward place, or a DFG copy that gives AP and whose active is a single target shield or heal on an ally, would be really appreciated. Also something more useful for Heart of Gold or Kage's Lucky Pick to turn into.
Part of TheYango's point was that we really don't need more reasons to buy gp10 items, we need items that are worth buying instead of gp10s.
Imagine if there were items with costs in the 700-1100g range that had useful actives for laning/mid-game team fights. These items would be prohibitive for other roles to pick up due to their slot-inefficiency and weak personal benefits/stats. However, a support with 2-3 of these items would be stronger than a support with gp10s, significantly increasing their lane and team fight presence. It's this sort of item that compels teams to give supports farm.
There's a razor's edge of balance involved, but with careful design these sorts of items are possible.
|
Oh I totally agree. There should be some better low tier support items.
But there should be some better high tier support items too. I get tired of having the exact same item build on every single support that I play. Everybody gets philo and everybody turns it into Shurelyas.
I imagine that even if good low tier items were added, getting one GP/10 would still likely be very cost efficient (getting two GP/10's is already questionable). I would like it if there were more choice as to which GP/10 to get and what to turn it into.
Just more choice in items in general for everybody would be very much appreciated. There are a lot of items nobody gets, and a lot of very standard item builds for a lot of roles.
This is the sort of thing that I would be talking about:
Lets say an item that builds from Kage's Lucky Pick, and gives something in the ballpark of
+80 AP
+10 MP/5
+15% CDR
+24 MR
Unique Passive: For every 100 AP you have, reduces your AP by 20
Unique Active: Heals target champion for 250 HP. 30 second cooldown.
It would have a bunch of stats on it that supports would like (MR, MP/5, CDR) and build from a GP/10 item. The passive would allow it to be very cost effective for a support, but not at all cost effective for an AP mid, since it would only be a good item if it was your only item with AP on it. Suddenly Janna and support Lux could be grabbing this instead of some other item, and it would give great dividends to their shields, and also a bit of damage and sustain.
Obvs pulled the numbers out of my ass, important thing is the concept. You could also have it build from a new low tier item that had almost nothing on it but the active heal, that would be cool too.
|
I think a large problem with LoL itemization is that so many items build into something else, often a good lategame item.
|
That and the stuff that doesnt build into a good lategame item is often just not good enough to be worth getting, with the exception of the Dorans items.
Items like Executioners Calling could use a buff.
|
how much of AP does MR negate? like if i had 10MR, would the opponent need to have 20ap to negate the 10MR?
|
Yea I forgot to add that. The only real choice seems to be do I go gp10 or do I not go gp10. That isn't really a choice :<. I rate they through in BKB for a few weeks and drink in the tears.
|
if you complete that item 2 posts ago before 40 min you are fucking your team on wards.
|
On October 16 2012 00:47 Ketara wrote:
Oh I totally agree. There should be some better low tier support items.
But there should be some better high tier support items too. I get tired of having the exact same item build on every single support that I play. Everybody gets philo and everybody turns it into Shurelyas.
I imagine that even if good low tier items were added, getting one GP/10 would still likely be very cost efficient (getting two GP/10's is already questionable). I would like it if there were more choice as to which GP/10 to get and what to turn it into.
Just more choice in items in general for everybody would be very much appreciated. There are a lot of items nobody gets, and a lot of very standard item builds for a lot of roles.
I'd rather not have to think about gp10 at all, it's a distraction from the more compelling aspects of itemization.
Case in point, "I would like it if there were more choice as to which GP/10 to get and what to turn it into". The very existence of gp10s has painted most questions of support itemization in its own image. The concept of choice outside of gp10s and the items they build into is alien and strange. The notion that we could have a low-cost support item which doesn't build into something else is completely insane. Our fixation on gp10 and item progression (the latter being partially the result of the need for gp10s to build into something else to be compelling) corrupts our approach to support itemization.
Gp10s are an addiction, and an unnecessary one.
|
MR is % negation
AP depends on the AP scaling of the ability, some hits more than others
|
if they straight up remove gp10s I'd be ok with it, as long as they leave Philo (mabye with a small buff) in the game.
|
If It's really better for supports to farm at key points leave that for room for improvement with the new wave of support play refinement at the top level. No need to artificially poke people around if you think it's already superior. If it isn't then you need to decide if it's a problem and how to fix it.
|
I might be way off base here so correct me if I'm wrong but I feel the fixation on gp10 and item progression doesn't only hinder support itemization but also contributes to a "toxic top lane" dynamic. Once a hero is behind it seems like they get further behind since they have no choice but to follow the exact same type of progression the other laner is following but now at an earlier stage and thus will always be behind that person. If there were items that say gave him potential now and didn't progression into slot efficient items later then that person could trade his potential later for potential now. This would allow the hero to even out the disadvantage to a degree but the reserve would also be true where a hero who is ahead could get even more ahead now by getting said items but then his counterpart could have the potential of being stronger later.
I'm not really sure if this is the case but it does feel like this dynamic isn't really at play.
|
United States23745 Posts
On October 16 2012 01:15 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 00:47 Ketara wrote:
Oh I totally agree. There should be some better low tier support items.
But there should be some better high tier support items too. I get tired of having the exact same item build on every single support that I play. Everybody gets philo and everybody turns it into Shurelyas.
I imagine that even if good low tier items were added, getting one GP/10 would still likely be very cost efficient (getting two GP/10's is already questionable). I would like it if there were more choice as to which GP/10 to get and what to turn it into.
Just more choice in items in general for everybody would be very much appreciated. There are a lot of items nobody gets, and a lot of very standard item builds for a lot of roles. I'd rather not have to think about gp10 at all, it's a distraction from the more compelling aspects of itemization. Case in point, "I would like it if there were more choice as to which GP/10 to get and what to turn it into". The very existence of gp10s has painted most questions of support itemization in its own image. The concept of choice outside of gp10s and the items they build into is alien and strange. The notion that we could have a low-cost support item which doesn't build into something else is completely insane. Our fixation on gp10 and item progression (the latter being partially the result of the need for gp10s to build into something else to be compelling) corrupts our approach to support itemization. Gp10s are an addiction, and an unnecessary one.
Yeah, the issue with Gp10s now is if your lane splits farm, and the enemy team doesn't, their AD is going to be strong enough to kill you despite having a stronger support. If they removed Gp10s, it could add an interesting dynamic between splitting farm for wards, vs keeping the 0 cs tradition and have a way stronger AD carry while having limited wards.
While I agree this would make the game better, it would actually make me worse. I actually like support because I don't have to worry about last hitting since I'm not great at it haha. I just can't see them removing Gp10s though.
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2012 01:19 Slayer91 wrote:
If It's really better for supports to farm at key points leave that for room for improvement with the new wave of support play refinement at the top level. No need to artificially poke people around if you think it's already superior. If it isn't then you need to decide if it's a problem and how to fix it.
I don't think you need to explicitly poke the issue (particularly as there definitely have been top teams experimenting with situational support farm), but it's pretty much implicit in any support item design that it's competing with the baseline usefulness of gp10.
Anything that you want supports to buy early game has to be sufficiently compelling to outweigh the baseline benefit of gp10 items.
|
Maybe we should have more early/mid game items a la Doran. Cost efficient, but that build into nothing, or are dead-end.
That could open up some very aggressive play. But at the same time, these cost efficient items will be surpassed by late-game item (by a lot).
|
United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2012 01:36 XenOmega wrote:
Maybe we should have more early/mid game items a la Doran. Cost efficient, but that build into nothing, or are dead-end.
That could open up some very aggressive play. But at the same time, these cost efficient items will be surpassed by late-game item (by a lot).
We already have such items, like Haunting Guise.
|
|
|
Is any1 good at support here? I always rush aegis then frozen heart rather than getting shureyla,when is a good time to get shureyla?
|
On October 16 2012 01:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 01:19 Slayer91 wrote:
If It's really better for supports to farm at key points leave that for room for improvement with the new wave of support play refinement at the top level. No need to artificially poke people around if you think it's already superior. If it isn't then you need to decide if it's a problem and how to fix it. I don't think you need to explicitly poke the issue (particularly as there definitely have been top teams experimenting with situational support farm), but it's pretty much implicit in any support item design that it's competing with the baseline usefulness of gp10. Anything that you want supports to buy early game has to be sufficiently compelling to outweigh the baseline benefit of gp10 items.
Either gp10's are too strong or they aren't. I've seen pages of posts about how gp10s are overrated. Either we nerf them if they're a problem or we don't nerf them and leave room for development.
You can't have the best of both worlds, where they're overrated but need to be nerfed.
|
Yeah there are a bunch of mid game items that don't build into anything.
Cloak and Dagger
Eleisa's Miracle
Executioner's Calling
Haunting Guise
Malady
Moonflair Spellblade
Quicksilver Sash
Spirit Visage
Wriggles Lantern
All under 2k gold and don't build into anything. Aside from Wriggles and QSS vs. certain team comps, hardly any of these ever get built by almost anyone. Most of the above items could use buffs, I think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
