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On August 31 2012 13:07 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 10:02 Nilrem wrote:On August 31 2012 09:53 Sufinsil wrote:
I come to TL for SC2 news and I follow here on the LoL. I have had played a lot of dota like 4-7 years ago. I never knew one piece of that pro scene, while I knew a little of BW (and now more) while I enjoyed following the LoL scene lightly.
How big is DotA 2 pro scene right now? The game is still in "beta", which is absurd since the game is always evolving with new heroes, thought I guess right now they are basically remaking a game still and not adding anything new.
I might read some of the DotA news and gauge my interest. Can always hide it if it gets in the way of SC2 stuff I want to read.
As others have said it just seemed more shocked since LoL has a larger playerbase. DotA is on the rise tho and has some history, much like BW > SC2 (which also got a lot of new TL.net users). The pro-scene is pretty large already. More players will eventually move over from DotA and the presence in China will become far greater once released. Keep in mind though that LoL was grounded on casual play that seeped into the E-sport scene whereas DotA has been part of the E-sport scene for +4 years. It is not the quanitity but quality (which means, not how many play, but what is it as a whole). Another part to keep in mind, as stated by others from Tl. A good portion of the TL staff play DotA 2, which means the transition of keeping TL the way it is while including DotA 2 is far easier. Dota2 has none of the magic of the original game, ive had beta since it was released or shortly after it was. I played like 5 games, said it was shitty and not like the first one and haven't touched it since.' I mean sure you have alot of multitasking possiblities, but in Dota it just seems like an awful chore. Coming from someone who played Terran at C level thats a pretty big deal, everything you do seems like such a hassle, denying blah blah. Can never tell whats going on in teamfights at all either
That I do not agree with. The "magic" is entirely subjective so really dependent on the person. As with your anecdote, I tried LoL before DotA 2 beta came out. I played it several times and generally did not enjoy the general feel of the game. I did not have fun, even when walking over random players. Even when my friends to play LoL a lot, competeively (in some cases), I end up telling them that it is just not for me.
It ends up being due to the entire package. Denying is something I really missed when playing LoL. It added another dynamic role and possibility. Having to ask yourself, am I needing the gold more or should I try to hinder the other player? It adds choice and consequence. Granted, I realize not everyone feels the same, some prefer it while others dislike it. As for what is going on in the teamfights, it comes from experience. It is the same with rts's, arts, mobas, etc. As you play the game, the better you get at discerning what goes on. During LoL matches, a lot of it comes off as a blur, a mess, etc. but that is because I do not have the experience of other players. Whereas in DotA 2, I see the skills (and sound of them) differentiated enough to where they are easily discernable. But then again, this is why there are two games, so people can pick-and-choose which ever mechanics they prefer.
Side note, I was C but as zerg, C- protoss, and never played terran (hated them... even in Sc2 haha).
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The reason some gaming teams create a Dota 2 division just because they want to be there once Dota 2 is officially released. If Dota 2 fail to attach casual players and grow big, they would just disband the teams.
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I am deeply saddened by the news that TL has chosen Dota 2 over LoL.
Dota's champions are too bland. They're not cutesy like Teemo, or have giant overwhelming tits like LoL supports. It's just a more mechanically challenging game that is not aesthetically pleasing.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2012 13:19 Caphe wrote:
The reason some gaming teams create a Dota 2 division just because they want to be there once Dota 2 is officially released. If Dota 2 fail to attach casual players and grow big, they would just disband the teams.
Valve considers DotA 2 to be a fully released game at this point.
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honestly you can buy into the beta, they are obviously just milking the "beta phase" so they can call it f2p when it does get "finished"
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I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games.
Why is Korea more important than China?
DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost.
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On August 31 2012 10:37 Shiragaku wrote:
After BW, when SC II became infested with people from reddit, 4chan, or what people call "the internet," I picked up LoL because this subforum reminds me of the good ole days of Brood War. LoL will never be as good as BW, but this small community keeps the nostalgia alive.
Plus, I know the two sides are separate for the most part on TL, but I really want LoL and DotA to have nothing to do with one another. DotA may be a good game, hell it can be 100 times better than LoL for all I care, but the aristocratic arrogance is just plain annoying. It reminds me of a peasant vs the noble situation.
Teamliquid has always been a site for the arrogant. The mods and personalities here are inherently arrogant.
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As I see it, I don't see dota2 being beat by any other 'moba' style game in the end. Behind it are pretty much the currently undisputed best developers in the video game industry, and the entire dota development even before valve was just rock solid. With LoL you have new heroes and balance patches every 3 weeks, massively changing what is possible in the game, I feel like this hurts LoL development greatly because you never have enough time to really explore things before hero power has changed. TL has made the best long term decision in my opinion.
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Hmm definitely think DotA(2) has much more status than LoL and why it takes priority, but at the same time, would have loved to see both ^_^
Perhaps a DotA2 team one day?
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On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost.
I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden.
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I think its great that TL is expanding. The whole LoL vs Dota vs SC2 should not be so. They are all apart of esports and to truly grow it you will need more then one game so they should support each other, even if you aren't interested in the other games out there.
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china has no pop/subculture attraction to the majority of gamers.
it is regarded as bland, uninspiring and generally a turn-off
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On August 31 2012 10:37 Shiragaku wrote:
After BW, when SC II became infested with people from reddit, 4chan, or what people call "the internet," I picked up LoL because this subforum reminds me of the good ole days of Brood War. LoL will never be as good as BW, but this small community keeps the nostalgia alive.
Plus, I know the two sides are separate for the most part on TL, but I really want LoL and DotA to have nothing to do with one another. DotA may be a good game, hell it can be 100 times better than LoL for all I care, but the aristocratic arrogance is just plain annoying. It reminds me of a peasant vs the noble situation.
Yeah, the Dota 2 community leaves something to be desired. I used to play the original Dota back in the day. Then I tried playing a game with the TL inhouse... well, I got cursed out for trying to ruin the game on purpose and got told to go back to solo queue  Haven't looked back.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden.
Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance.
Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west...
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On August 31 2012 13:24 0123456789 wrote:
I am deeply saddened by the news that TL has chosen Dota 2 over LoL.
Dota's champions are too bland. They're not cutesy like Teemo, or have giant overwhelming tits like LoL supports. It's just a more mechanically challenging game that is not aesthetically pleasing.
Yeah, they should definitely favour aesthetics over a solid gameplay.
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On August 31 2012 17:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden. Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance. Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west...
Does valve even have a distributor in china yet?
The awesome part of the ten cent riot deal was that riot games got instant access to the Chinese population.
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On August 31 2012 12:53 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 04:12 Azarkon wrote:On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams. It has little to do with China vs. Korea. Korea is a recent comer in LoL and is far from being the mecca of LoL. LoL had been popular in China for years before Korea came into the scene, but the eSports side of it has never taken off. Chinese teams also do not play Korean teams frequently - the Koreans don't send their teams out a lot, and the last time a Chinese team was in a tournament, they were roflstomped by Western teams. Thinking that Korea's rather light presence on the LoL scene is the cause for LoL eSports not taking off in China is delusional. The problem is that LoL eSports just isn't that popular in China. A lot of this is due to the established Dota eSports tradition - just about every popular 'MOBA' player in China is in Dota rather than LoL. There is Dota elitism in China, too, from what I've heard. That was quite an aggressive response. LoL has only really started to take off in China at the start of this year and the viewership has been steadily growing. However, the lack of success of Chinese teams in international events, especially the failure of WE to perform on the big stage and the inconsistency of iG, actually is one of the biggest reasons why LoL viewership has stalled a bit recently. Sure, it is not to do with China vs Korea as a direct confrontation. What I actually meant with my Korean reference is that there is a culture of winning or being the best in China that is so ingrained that if it seems that Chinese LoL is not up there with the best in the world (i.e. currently the Koreans), then their interest in it is diminished greatly. What you claimed about LoL and DotA isn't even accurate. Of course there is DotA elitism but if you were actually in China and interacting with the Chinese MOBA community right now, then you would know that the majority of DotA casual players have already moved on to LoL, and it takes casual fans to make an industry. Further, esports in China in general is not that big a thing and is overhyped by the international DotA community. Most people would rather spend their time playing the game, be it DotA or LoL, than watch other people play it, mostly because time is of such shortage to anyone who is not a uni student with a rich family background in China. Anyway, I won't post more about this here because I've gone way off-topic now. I really hope TL LoL can become a thing in a year or so with the advent of S4 because the international esports community really needs it.
The vast majority of casual gamers do not watch eSports. You say this yourself. So, when talking about eSports, we are talking about a segment of society that isn't quite 'casual' in the way that the rest of it is.
LoL's market penetration in China is fairly deep and the player population is large, but its eSports scene has not taken off. You're correct to say that LoL's problems in China have to do with the lack of world class Chinese teams, but you haven't asked why that is. In this you've ignored the second half of my comment - which is that Dota elitism prevents players from joining the game, not viewers. Chinese Dota players, who are the bread and butter of their competitive MOBA scene, are not switching to LoL because they consider it an inferior game to Dota and Dota 2.
Players passionate enough and capable of becoming eSports stars are few and far in between. Casual gamers are never going to rise to the occasion, so whether there's millions / tens of millions of casual gamers matter little. What matters is the segment of players skilled enough and passionate enough that they're willing to go pro. This community has its own subculture, and this subculture, in China, is defined by a Dota tradition.
When you have the vast majority of your present MOBA pro players saying that they're not switching to LoL because it's a low skill game, and that they're going to go to Dota 2 instead, there is a bandwagon effect on the rest of the pro gaming capable community. There is a feeling among top Chinese MOBA players that those who are not able to cut it in Dota, go play LoL. That is one cause for why LoL eSports has not become huge in China - because of the lack of star players, which leads to the lack of great teams.
Speaking for myself only, Dota is a far better watching experience than LoL. But that is subjective. What is not subjective is that there's a difference between a popular game and a popular eSports. WoW is an immensely popular game, but WoW Arena is a failure of an eSport. Throwing money into tournaments won't get you where you want to be, not by itself. Riot has to understand that and not just sniffle at the inflated viewer counts they're able to get.
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On August 31 2012 18:12 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 17:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden. Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance. Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west... Does valve even have a distributor in china yet? The awesome part of the ten cent riot deal was that riot games got instant access to the Chinese population.
I think Perfect World is going to be their Chinese partner.
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On August 31 2012 17:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden. Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance. Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west...
But this also makes comparing numbers in foreign markets a bit meaningless and BW is kind of an example for that. It was/is huge in Korea and while that somewhat helped to keep a small community alive in the west (TL is testament to this), it didn't really fully translate into the west.
A game can succeed in one region and "fail" in others. Korea has proven that it is a viable market on its own to house a game as an esport. People throw a lot of numbers around about how huge Dota2 is in China, but China is huge in itself and this makes it hard to evaluate the relative importance of something when throwing around numbers. Not to say the numbers are not impressive, but I find it personally hard to understand how important the game in China really is.
With that being said, Lol is very different from SC/SC2 in one important aspect which is completely unrelated to the gameplay. It's based on microtransactions and from the looks of it, Dota2 is aiming for the same model. A larger player base will directly translate into a bigger revenue. The games are very similar and they are aiming for the same crowd. I know that they are very different in details, but when compared to SC2 for example they are virtually identical.
I fully expect this to get a bit ugly, as both Valve and Riot will want to bash the shit out of each other to fight over dominance in each and every market. And both sides will always claim, that they have the bigger numbers, the more important segement and so on...
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EPT
