EPT[PSA] TL Dota Expansion - Page 10
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
Also, I even like the LoL community on this site better than the sc2 community. Thats probably because its smaller and therefore more "nice". So not much reason to want it to expand. | ||
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napo
Romania622 Posts
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tztztz
Germany314 Posts
to establish esports teams who are able to attract sponsors and pay their players reasonably, you have to be successful in some why. but thats not gonna happen if you promote a game with existing premium asian teams dominating this game for years. look what riot's doing, they gonna pay salaries for players in the upcoming season. A VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER PAYING SALARIES FOR PROGAMERS. just to path the way for western esports. i don't think that TL's decision to add dota2 will kill LOL or anything like that, TL is not significant enough, and i think there can be 2 MOBAs coexiting, especially 2 so different MOBAs (i play both), but IF i'm wrong, IF one of those games will fade away, and IF it's LOL, then it will be a lot harder and will take a lot longer to establish an esports infrastuctur like in asia. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22132 Posts
On September 02 2012 20:14 tztztz wrote: the only concern i have with the desicion to promote dota2 instead of LOL is the missed opportunity to promote a game where you dont see an asian domination. dont get me wrong, in definitely not one of those people who is "less interested in koreans" or something like that, i enjoy the highest level of competiton no matter what nation. however, there are people who are that narrow minded, and the thing is, esports is still something thats in development phase in NA/EU, and i think it would have been better for the growth of western esports to promote a game where NA/EU dont just play a minor role. Except thats not really true. Asians are starting to dominate LoL already despite a much shorter time on the game. Look at Blaze at the MLG Arena, Look at teams going to OGN. Everyone but the very top (the stephanos for SC2 people) is already losing to the Koreans and its only going to get worse. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On August 31 2012 18:15 Azarkon wrote: The vast majority of casual gamers do not watch eSports. You say this yourself. So, when talking about eSports, we are talking about a segment of society that isn't quite 'casual' in the way that the rest of it is. LoL's market penetration in China is fairly deep and the player population is large, but its eSports scene has not taken off. You're correct to say that LoL's problems in China have to do with the lack of world class Chinese teams, but you haven't asked why that is. In this you've ignored the second half of my comment - which is that Dota elitism prevents players from joining the game, not viewers. Chinese Dota players, who are the bread and butter of their competitive MOBA scene, are not switching to LoL because they consider it an inferior game to Dota and Dota 2. Players passionate enough and capable of becoming eSports stars are few and far in between. Casual gamers are never going to rise to the occasion, so whether there's millions / tens of millions of casual gamers matter little. What matters is the segment of players skilled enough and passionate enough that they're willing to go pro. This community has its own subculture, and this subculture, in China, is defined by a Dota tradition. When you have the vast majority of your present MOBA pro players saying that they're not switching to LoL because it's a low skill game, and that they're going to go to Dota 2 instead, there is a bandwagon effect on the rest of the pro gaming capable community. There is a feeling among top Chinese MOBA players that those who are not able to cut it in Dota, go play LoL. That is one cause for why LoL eSports has not become huge in China - because of the lack of star players, which leads to the lack of great teams. Speaking for myself only, Dota is a far better watching experience than LoL. But that is subjective. What is not subjective is that there's a difference between a popular game and a popular eSports. WoW is an immensely popular game, but WoW Arena is a failure of an eSport. Throwing money into tournaments won't get you where you want to be, not by itself. Riot has to understand that and not just sniffle at the inflated viewer counts they're able to get. Thist post is about LoL coverage in TL in regard to the new dota 2 promotion, it's not one of all the other thread where you can come and try to give us an "educated" opinion on why lol will not rise as an e-sport. Seriously, you are comparing things that doesn't mean much. China has always been a place of the world with its own rules regarding gaming in general. SC1's chinese scene was completly secluded, WC3 chinese scene was really big, but only appeared near the end of WC3's life. The same for SC2, where almost no players got out of China. There are still thousands of people playing dota 1 in china - a game so old I felt like I have acne all over again. So LoL not taking off in China doesn't mean at all that some Chinese teams will not rise, especially when LoL is throwing millions in their face. You cannot really explain the dynamic of the Chinese scene, nor can you explain the failure of WoW Arena, with such cheap details, like the "appearance" of skilled players - like there exist some players that start skilled and not casual. For exemple, how can you not explain WoW Arena's failure if you don't take into consideration that almost everything was balanced for PVE, hence making some class completly useless in PvP. Not to mention how old the game was when Arena appeared. Obviously, only time will tell what game will rise as an "e-sport" and what will not, but trying to rationalise what might happen considering the few facts you believe to be true is just a silly and a boring discussion. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22132 Posts
On September 02 2012 20:37 WhiteDog wrote: You cannot really explain the dynamic of the Chinese scene, nor can you explain the failure of WoW Arena, with such cheap details, like the "appearance" of skilled players - like there exist some players that start skilled and not casual. For exemple, how can you not explain WoW Arena's failure if you don't take into consideration that almost everything was balanced for PVE, hence making some class completly useless in PvP. Not to mention how old the game was when Arena appeared. I bit offtopic but WoW failed as an esport because blizz didnt balance for it on 1 hand and the utter lack of tournaments on the other. 2 tournaments per year just isnt enough to keep a scene going :p | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 02 2012 13:44 dooshplayer wrote: Official Dota 2 blog says 'over 400,000 simultaneous viewers online and thousands of visitors at Benaroya Hall' http://blog.dota2.com/2012/09/day-two-starts/ isnt that what riot is doing with LoL. paid money to MLG, IEM and IPL to have LoL in their leagues and then also have a clause that forbids them from allowing any other moba game on their league. valve and blizzard reached an 'agreement' where valve gets the 'dota' name and blizzard changes their sc2 mod name from 'blizzard dota' to 'blizzard allstars' Sounds good to me | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
I always hear the Avid DotA Defense Squad saying how much more fast-paced DotA is, and how oh-so-many plays, ganks and kills happen all the time. I watched a bit of the International yesterday after NA regionals ended. (iG vs NaVi g3, then it was ovur) And the killscore was 1-1 until 15+ minutes. The game was compareable to your average LoL games in length, amount of action, etc. Actually, quite a bit more boring to me, but I don't know 80% of the skill(animations), too long since I played dota(1), so that might have something to do with it. What I would like to know: Was that game representative of most games (was it your average straight-up pro-game)? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22132 Posts
On September 02 2012 20:54 Dandel Ion wrote: Side question: I always hear the Avid DotA Defense Squad saying how much more fast-paced DotA is, and how oh-so-many plays, ganks and kills happen all the time. I watched a bit of the International yesterday after NA regionals ended. (iG vs NaVi g3, then it was ovur) And the killscore was 1-1 until 15+ minutes. The game was compareable to your average LoL games in length, amount of action, etc. Actually, quite a bit more boring to me, but I don't know 80% of the skill(animations), too long since I played dota(1), so that might have something to do with it. What I would like to know: Was that game representative of most games (was it your average straight-up pro-game)? Normaly people die a lot more then that. Lanes are longer, stuns are longer and no Flash means ganking lanes is a lot easier. | ||
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Highwayman
United States181 Posts
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 02 2012 21:00 Highwayman wrote: The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant. Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online. League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
I can't remember the exact numbers but they released them about the same time they passed wow on worldwide amount of players. | ||
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dooshplayer
179 Posts
On September 02 2012 21:05 arb wrote: Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online. League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics. a game which has been f2p since 2009 has more players than ggame which is still in closed beta? | ||
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masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
On September 03 2012 00:46 dooshplayer wrote: a game which has been f2p since 2009 has more players than ggame which is still in closed beta? Funny enough, the main english stream for Dota2 has 60k viewers right now, maybe peak at 70k, if that. LoL gets twice that on a regionals event, not a even as "big" as the international. also the place where they are holding the finals, it isn't even full capacity, and with a location like seattle, it should be full. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
On September 03 2012 02:58 masterbreti wrote: Funny enough, the main english stream for Dota2 has 60k viewers right now, maybe peak at 70k, if that. LoL gets twice that on a regionals event, not a even as "big" as the international. also the place where they are holding the finals, it isn't even full capacity, and with a location like seattle, it should be full. I'd wait for Valve to release numbers of their own before trying to make any comparisons. The reason for this is that in addition to the English stream, there's also the Russian and Chinese streams. As well, for the English and Russian streams, they're running on both own3d and twitch at the same time. There's also plenty of people watching through the in-game client. Also right now, it's only 11:30 am in Seattle, so of course the venue isn't going to be completely full, haha. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 01 2012 11:01 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: There were 69,659 people watching in-game CLG v M5 during group stages which was one of the most viewed games. And also, it's likely the semifinals and finals will have more viewers than group stage matches. Also, group stages matches were played concurrently so hard to say what the combined figure at any point in time was until Valve says so. DotaTV is nice because you can spectate the game and control the camera yourself while having options to choose from different commentators for audio or disable commentary. You can also choose to set a camera lock to what a commentator is seeing if you're lazy. I think I'm not exagerating when I say that Valve is setting the bar to a new level in terms of professionalism on all levels with this tournament. Up to 16 hours of commentating in all major languages, replays you can watch while selecting the commentary you want, streams showing the team booths and the crowd, 10 minutes MAX in between team switches and games, a "analyst" desk which entertains people during down times, no commercials - it just all adds up to something neither Riot, nor Blizzard nor anyone else has achieved so far. For the sake of League I REALLY, REALLY hope that Riots learns from Valve when it comes to things like this. They're just lots of steps ahead with their organisation and how they present themselves at the moment. However, I gotta agree with Yango; - the quality and general attitude in this subforum are still #1. It's also much more developed than the DotA 2 forum in terms of strategic content and such. <3 Edit: @numbers: The numbers Valve released so far are ONLY ingame spectators. It's hard to guess because you don't know how many people watch stream and ingame at the same time (I LOVE to do this for example) but 200k at prime time total is probably not too far off. Wait for the next Na'Vi game to get a good estimate. =P | ||
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snow2.0
Germany2073 Posts
On September 03 2012 02:58 masterbreti wrote: Funny enough, the main english stream for Dota2 has 60k viewers right now, maybe peak at 70k, if that. LoL gets twice that on a regionals event, not a even as "big" as the international. also the place where they are holding the finals, it isn't even full capacity, and with a location like seattle, it should be full. There's another 53k watching from the ingame client, 30k on the russian streams... and i don't even know if there's more than twitch and own3d streaming it. Viewer numbers certainly aren't the issue for dota. Its a high number for a streamed event in any case, probably many people tuning in to LoL regionals and the international at the same time... | ||
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masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
On September 03 2012 04:28 snow2.0 wrote: There's another 53k watching from the ingame client, 30k on the russian streams... and i don't even know if there's more than twitch and own3d streaming it. Viewer numbers certainly aren't the issue for dota. Its a high number for a streamed event in any case, probably many people tuning in to LoL regionals and the international at the same time... 143k people watching the LoL regionals right now, that doesn't include the 2 restreams, one on twich is getting 2-3k viewers, and the other one on daum has 4-5k, so about 150k people watching a regionals event. | ||
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