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United States37500 Posts
Good Morning TL LoL,
As you’ve noticed from the site downtime and the new sidebar on the left, the Admins of TeamLiquid have officially decided to branch away from the RTS genre and into DotA2. Some of you may not care about the change; others may take offense as to why DotA2 was selected but not LoL. In the end, I wanted to give a short explanation as well as a request to our humble, little community.
From Nazgul’s post, you can tell that the competitive nature of DotA2 is what lends itself to become the game of choice (besides StarCraft) for Naz and other TL Reds. Now it’s up for debate whether or not LoL is equally competitive but in all honesty, that is beside the point. DotA alone has been around for 6+ years and has an established competitive community that LoL cannot yet compete with. In the coming few weeks, the staff and I will slowly incorporate new features and articles to our subforum as a mini-expansion. But ask not what we can do for you but what you can do for TL LoL. If we are to one day be granted expansion on TeamLiquid like DotA2 is getting, I want to make sure we deserve it. TL LoL should be at the forefront of the League of Legends community. Nothing short.
In the end, I bid all of you but one thing: take today with grace. In all honesty, I am proud to be a part of this community. For the most part, many of you are a vital part of this great camaraderie that we have here. Do not turn for the worst. Congratulate DotA2 for becoming another eSports aspect of our beloved site and again, ask what you can do for our TL LoL community to make it better.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
Enjoy PAX Prime today.
Regards,
Neo
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cool, glad to see TL admins taking a MOBA seriously. I hope this doesn't fracture the community on LoL vs. DotA2.
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Given that a much larger proportions of TL's population is more into Dota compared to Lol, the decision makes sense. As long as there is no sense of superiority going on for either side, it should be okay.
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Congratulations to everyone following the DotA scene, I believe this is quite a big step for a site as pretigious among the SC fellows as TL. I hope that our beloved LiquidParty will one day reach this point of recognition and acceptance, too.
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I saw it coming and am not surprised in the slightest.
I don't see how this effects us tho,we still have our place on TL,even tho we are smaller.
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It's an interesting choice considering LoL is screaming out for a community driven site and Dota2 has many of them already running.
Congrats and good luck
Leigh "Deman" Smith
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Is this good for growth of LoL, probably not. Is this good for our smaller LoL fourm here on TL...probably. Small communities=best communities.
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On August 31 2012 00:30 Deman wrote:
It's an interesting choice considering LoL is screaming out for a community driven site and Dota2 has many of them already running.
Congrats and good luck
Leigh "Deman" Smith
I gotta be honest,as the LOL community is now,I wouldn't want TL to ever become the foothold for it.
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I'm okay with this. TL LoL is cool right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the masses or r/LoL coming in here and spoiling it, however elitist that sounds.
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On August 31 2012 00:30 Deman wrote:
It's an interesting choice considering LoL is screaming out for a community driven site and Dota2 has many of them already running.
Congrats and good luck
Leigh "Deman" Smith
I'm not sure what you mean. Both games are so big that they both have a tonne of websites/coverage sites for them. Although, then again I only really read TL for LoL because other websites are simply so bad (/r/leagueoflegends is terrible now). But, this announcement doesn't change anything for our forum, it's still as good as it ever was.
As people are saying I don't really want this forum to get better lol, given the quality of other LoL sites.
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On August 31 2012 00:40 Schmieds wrote:
I'm okay with this. TL LoL is cool right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the masses or r/LoL coming in here and spoiling it, however elitist that sounds.
Imagine the lone mod vs the hordes of redditors foaming at the mouth about their awesome solo eves and legit support zyras that all rush trinity force for tons of damage.
If it ever happens I'd like to open the betting for "when will Neo go bat shit insane."
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On August 31 2012 00:44 WirelessWaffle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:40 Schmieds wrote:
I'm okay with this. TL LoL is cool right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the masses or r/LoL coming in here and spoiling it, however elitist that sounds. Imagine the lone mod vs the hordes of redditors foaming at the mouth about their awesome solo eves and legit support zyras that all rush trinity force for tons of damage. If it ever happens I'd like to open the betting for "when will Neo go bat shit insane."
Don't forget the millions of cosplay/fan comic threads. :D
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god damm thats a good address. short sweet full of Americana. wish they would have done this a week ago when ti started or tomorrow when ti resumes instead of on the day that a big lol event starts.
Great to hear this and I look forward to everything there is to come.
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On August 31 2012 00:46 Goshawk. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:44 WirelessWaffle wrote:On August 31 2012 00:40 Schmieds wrote:
I'm okay with this. TL LoL is cool right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the masses or r/LoL coming in here and spoiling it, however elitist that sounds. Imagine the lone mod vs the hordes of redditors foaming at the mouth about their awesome solo eves and legit support zyras that all rush trinity force for tons of damage. If it ever happens I'd like to open the betting for "when will Neo go bat shit insane." Don't forget the millions of cosplay/fan comic threads. :D
I think they could get their own section called "Not quite right" or "A tad odd" and then there would be a separate one called "Daddy Issues"
:p
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It makes sense to me. DotA's been around for almost a decade now. You've got a preexisting, stable competitive base supported by a longstanding, trustworthy company versus a very new, uncertain but upcoming game with a company that, while doing well, has no other titles or sources of income. It would take a collapse of Valve to kill DotA 2, even if it doesn't become as wildly successful as people hope. LoL could easily take a wrong turn somewhere and implode.
That said, I blame TL B. If we ever actually practiced and competed maybe we'd attract some attention. Incidentally I'm out this weekend for an anime convention.
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Definitely a step in the right direction at least, glad to see TL is branching out a bit.
TL doesn't have to officially cover LoL for this forum to have good content!
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*shrug* I love League, I love Broodwar, I love watching Dota so I don't mind this. While it's unlikely I am going to ever poke my head into the Dota2 section it's neat to see it being expanded on and it just drives us to be an even better and stronger community.
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As long as those DotA2 'hooligans' (the ones that only come here to provoke LoL vs DotA discussions like we had a few times in our GD thread) stay away I don't really care.
DotA is known for its much more in-depth mechanical element (denying the enemy your own creeps, flexible path creating and the like) and in this sense is comparable to SC2. I understand the decision but couldn't care less at the same time (no offense).
On the other hand, I have to quote a guy a few posts before me:
On August 31 2012 00:34 Amethyst21 wrote:
[...] Small communities=best communities.
This pretty much sums it up.
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On August 31 2012 00:53 Seuss wrote:
It makes sense to me. DotA's been around for almost a decade now. You've got a preexisting, stable competitive base supported by a longstanding, trustworthy company versus a very new, uncertain but upcoming game with a company that, while doing well, has no other titles or sources of income. It would take a collapse of Valve to kill DotA 2, even if it doesn't become as wildly successful as people hope. LoL could easily take a wrong turn somewhere and implode.
That said, I blame TL B. If we ever actually practiced and competed maybe we'd attract some attention. Incidentally I'm out this weekend for an anime convention.
A million times this. Of all the 2k players we have and have formed teams, no one takes it even remotely seriously or tries to compete in any of the weekly tourneys. If I were good enough I'd be doing this constantly.
As for the DotA coverage, good on them. Kinda makes me sad that it's not us, of course, but it is great to see TL finally branching out to other games beyond strictly SC2/BW. (I also kind of wonder if it's partially because of the general animosity a lot of SC2 players seem to have toward LoL and whether they were worried about an uproar on the site?)
Anyway, maybe one day we'll be up there, especially if we keep getting such good writeups from JBright/MB/Neo and the few mods we have keep trying to fight for us. If there's anything we can do to make it a reality someday, don't hesitate to let us know!
TL LoL hwaiting!
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United States37500 Posts
On August 31 2012 00:44 WirelessWaffle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:40 Schmieds wrote:
I'm okay with this. TL LoL is cool right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the masses or r/LoL coming in here and spoiling it, however elitist that sounds. Imagine the lone mod vs the hordes of redditors foaming at the mouth about their awesome solo eves and legit support zyras that all rush trinity force for tons of damage. If it ever happens I'd like to open the betting for "when will Neo go bat shit insane."
I could moderate /r/LoL by myself, npnp.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 31 2012 01:19 TheKefka wrote:Neo after modding a external LoL website all alone for a month: + Show Spoiler +
nah, dude's too chill.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Meh. Still not sure how I feel about the pickup. To me, it just screams as an opportunity to pickup a growing game to eventually merge attention towards since SC2 is a dying game already.
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On August 31 2012 01:06 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:53 Seuss wrote:
It makes sense to me. DotA's been around for almost a decade now. You've got a preexisting, stable competitive base supported by a longstanding, trustworthy company versus a very new, uncertain but upcoming game with a company that, while doing well, has no other titles or sources of income. It would take a collapse of Valve to kill DotA 2, even if it doesn't become as wildly successful as people hope. LoL could easily take a wrong turn somewhere and implode.
That said, I blame TL B. If we ever actually practiced and competed maybe we'd attract some attention. Incidentally I'm out this weekend for an anime convention. A million times this. Of all the 2k players we have and have formed teams, no one takes it even remotely seriously or tries to compete in any of the weekly tourneys. If I were good enough I'd be doing this constantly. As for the DotA coverage, good on them. Kinda makes me sad that it's not us, of course, but it is great to see TL finally branching out to other games beyond strictly SC2/BW. (I also kind of wonder if it's partially because of the general animosity a lot of SC2 players seem to have toward LoL and whether they were worried about an uproar on the site?) Anyway, maybe one day we'll be up there, especially if we keep getting such good writeups from JBright/MB/Neo and the few mods we have keep trying to fight for us. If there's anything we can do to make it a reality someday, don't hesitate to let us know! TL LoL hwaiting!
Don't say, "If I were good enough." Make a team and do it anyway. You can learn mechanics and individual decision making at the same time you learn team coordination and communication. You will hone your individual skills faster when you have a team to call you out on your mistakes.
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I saw the post over in the Dota 2 subforum, was butthurt, and moved on. Obviously since League is newer it still needs to prove itself, I suppose. Time will tell how it goes but I definitely see it getting the same attention soon.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 31 2012 01:24 Dusty wrote:
I saw the post over in the Dota 2 subforum, was butthurt, and moved on. Obviously since League is newer it still needs to prove itself, I suppose. Time will tell how it goes but I definitely see it getting the same attention soon.
I think this will be a lot of people in TL LoL. Disappointing but we move on. We understand and we'll be better.
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On August 31 2012 01:22 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:06 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 31 2012 00:53 Seuss wrote:
It makes sense to me. DotA's been around for almost a decade now. You've got a preexisting, stable competitive base supported by a longstanding, trustworthy company versus a very new, uncertain but upcoming game with a company that, while doing well, has no other titles or sources of income. It would take a collapse of Valve to kill DotA 2, even if it doesn't become as wildly successful as people hope. LoL could easily take a wrong turn somewhere and implode.
That said, I blame TL B. If we ever actually practiced and competed maybe we'd attract some attention. Incidentally I'm out this weekend for an anime convention. A million times this. Of all the 2k players we have and have formed teams, no one takes it even remotely seriously or tries to compete in any of the weekly tourneys. If I were good enough I'd be doing this constantly. As for the DotA coverage, good on them. Kinda makes me sad that it's not us, of course, but it is great to see TL finally branching out to other games beyond strictly SC2/BW. (I also kind of wonder if it's partially because of the general animosity a lot of SC2 players seem to have toward LoL and whether they were worried about an uproar on the site?) Anyway, maybe one day we'll be up there, especially if we keep getting such good writeups from JBright/MB/Neo and the few mods we have keep trying to fight for us. If there's anything we can do to make it a reality someday, don't hesitate to let us know! TL LoL hwaiting! Don't say, "If I were good enough." Make a team and do it anyway. You can learn mechanics and individual decision making at the same time you learn team coordination and communication. You will hone your individual skills faster when you have a team to call you out on your mistakes.
Monte criticisms always so harsh. FOR YOUR INFORMATION SIR, I already have a team but they're lazy and we don't practice. I should have gotten with one of the LP crew/teams before the channel started to die...
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On August 31 2012 01:25 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:24 Dusty wrote:
I saw the post over in the Dota 2 subforum, was butthurt, and moved on. Obviously since League is newer it still needs to prove itself, I suppose. Time will tell how it goes but I definitely see it getting the same attention soon. I think this will be a lot of people in TL LoL. Disappointing but we move on. We understand and we'll be better.
Yeah.....was me for sure.
Really disappointing, but what can we do...
I would have like to see both or neither really. Favoritism is never good.
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Darn now I need to change my sidebar and learn to play DotA 2. I've played it once, it was pretty confusing to me, and honestly I prefer League of Legends, but yeah...
I agree with WaveOfShadow here. TL B's players have been very very active, like Soniv being the extremely vocal Viktor advocate, but if they had perhaps become their own team and queued and been more visible as a team rather than a conglomerate of casual players, things may have been different.
Then again, they are casual players and volunteers, so no hard feelings. I am going to have to learn a new game because of them though.
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On August 31 2012 01:31 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:22 Seuss wrote:On August 31 2012 01:06 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 31 2012 00:53 Seuss wrote:
It makes sense to me. DotA's been around for almost a decade now. You've got a preexisting, stable competitive base supported by a longstanding, trustworthy company versus a very new, uncertain but upcoming game with a company that, while doing well, has no other titles or sources of income. It would take a collapse of Valve to kill DotA 2, even if it doesn't become as wildly successful as people hope. LoL could easily take a wrong turn somewhere and implode.
That said, I blame TL B. If we ever actually practiced and competed maybe we'd attract some attention. Incidentally I'm out this weekend for an anime convention. A million times this. Of all the 2k players we have and have formed teams, no one takes it even remotely seriously or tries to compete in any of the weekly tourneys. If I were good enough I'd be doing this constantly. As for the DotA coverage, good on them. Kinda makes me sad that it's not us, of course, but it is great to see TL finally branching out to other games beyond strictly SC2/BW. (I also kind of wonder if it's partially because of the general animosity a lot of SC2 players seem to have toward LoL and whether they were worried about an uproar on the site?) Anyway, maybe one day we'll be up there, especially if we keep getting such good writeups from JBright/MB/Neo and the few mods we have keep trying to fight for us. If there's anything we can do to make it a reality someday, don't hesitate to let us know! TL LoL hwaiting! Don't say, "If I were good enough." Make a team and do it anyway. You can learn mechanics and individual decision making at the same time you learn team coordination and communication. You will hone your individual skills faster when you have a team to call you out on your mistakes. Monte criticisms always so harsh. FOR YOUR INFORMATION SIR, I already have a team but they're lazy and we don't practice. I should have gotten with one of the LP crew/teams before the channel started to die...
Homework Assignment: Find four other people complaining about the same thing and make a new team.
On August 31 2012 01:36 Praetorial wrote:
Darn now I need to change my sidebar and learn to play DotA 2. I've played it once, it was pretty confusing to me, and honestly I prefer League of Legends, but yeah...
I agree with WaveOfShadow here. TL B's players have been very very active, like Soniv being the extremely vocal Viktor advocate, but if they had perhaps become their own team and queued and been more visible as a team rather than a conglomerate of casual players, things may have been different.
Then again, they are casual players and volunteers, so no hard feelings. I am going to have to learn a new game because of them though.
Wat.
If you like LoL keep playing LoL. Why do you have to learn a new game? I am so confused.
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I don't even care about TL SC2 part anymore, too many elitist jerks and it's the same in DotA2. I stick around for TL LoL since you can't find a better community for LoL in 7 galaxies.
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On August 31 2012 01:36 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:31 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 31 2012 01:22 Seuss wrote:On August 31 2012 01:06 WaveofShadow wrote:On August 31 2012 00:53 Seuss wrote:
It makes sense to me. DotA's been around for almost a decade now. You've got a preexisting, stable competitive base supported by a longstanding, trustworthy company versus a very new, uncertain but upcoming game with a company that, while doing well, has no other titles or sources of income. It would take a collapse of Valve to kill DotA 2, even if it doesn't become as wildly successful as people hope. LoL could easily take a wrong turn somewhere and implode.
That said, I blame TL B. If we ever actually practiced and competed maybe we'd attract some attention. Incidentally I'm out this weekend for an anime convention. A million times this. Of all the 2k players we have and have formed teams, no one takes it even remotely seriously or tries to compete in any of the weekly tourneys. If I were good enough I'd be doing this constantly. As for the DotA coverage, good on them. Kinda makes me sad that it's not us, of course, but it is great to see TL finally branching out to other games beyond strictly SC2/BW. (I also kind of wonder if it's partially because of the general animosity a lot of SC2 players seem to have toward LoL and whether they were worried about an uproar on the site?) Anyway, maybe one day we'll be up there, especially if we keep getting such good writeups from JBright/MB/Neo and the few mods we have keep trying to fight for us. If there's anything we can do to make it a reality someday, don't hesitate to let us know! TL LoL hwaiting! Don't say, "If I were good enough." Make a team and do it anyway. You can learn mechanics and individual decision making at the same time you learn team coordination and communication. You will hone your individual skills faster when you have a team to call you out on your mistakes. Monte criticisms always so harsh. FOR YOUR INFORMATION SIR, I already have a team but they're lazy and we don't practice. I should have gotten with one of the LP crew/teams before the channel started to die... Homework Assignment: Find four other people complaining about the same thing and make a new team. Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:36 Praetorial wrote:
Darn now I need to change my sidebar and learn to play DotA 2. I've played it once, it was pretty confusing to me, and honestly I prefer League of Legends, but yeah...
I agree with WaveOfShadow here. TL B's players have been very very active, like Soniv being the extremely vocal Viktor advocate, but if they had perhaps become their own team and queued and been more visible as a team rather than a conglomerate of casual players, things may have been different.
Then again, they are casual players and volunteers, so no hard feelings. I am going to have to learn a new game because of them though. Wat. If you like LoL keep playing LoL. Why do you have to learn a new game? I am so confused.
Um because I like to know what people are talking about on DotA streams when Oddbro and Froggen aren't streaming!
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this is going to be my first techinal post on the LoL forums here but in all honesty I don't like the Dota adding, I much pefer LoL, not just because I don't play Dota2 (hell i played one game and got a hat, DOTA2 has hats now?!?) but because my korean sc2 clammates all play LoL. the sc2 pros I know all play LoL, (byun plays a really good vayne, keep it on the DL though haha).
but also because its a game that has captured the same feeling I have for sc2, I love the game, it isn't perfect, but riot is doing a damn good job promoting the game in Korea.
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Even if it doesn't have it's own section does it really change anything?
Also just compare old broodwar forum to sc2 one currently and you'll see why you shouldn't really be butthurt or w/e ^^.I have yet to see a big internet community which I actually like.
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On August 31 2012 00:30 Deman wrote:
It's an interesting choice considering LoL is screaming out for a community driven site and Dota2 has many of them already running.
Congrats and good luck
Leigh "Deman" Smith
I can't comment on the rest, but I'll second this. When I started following LoL, I looked around for websites similar to TL that gave LoL coverage, and found them wanting. solomid.net is great for guides and streams, but the community is shit, and there's rarely any news coverage. TL's way better for that, even with just a subforum devoted to the game. Generating page views has never been the goal of TL, so I understand the choice to cover a game that the decision makers care about. I just really wish there was a website where the kind of coverage and analysis TL gives us for SC2 would be given to LoL.
And while I'm here, super big thanks to Neo and all the other authors who make this forum as good as it is! TL is the best place to watch LoL on the internets. ^_^
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On August 31 2012 01:47 masterbreti wrote:
this is going to be my first techinal post on the LoL forums here but in all honesty I don't like the Dota adding, I much pefer LoL, not just because I don't play Dota2 (hell i played one game and got a hat, DOTA2 has hats now?!?) but because my korean sc2 clammates all play LoL. the sc2 pros I know all play LoL, (byun plays a really good vayne, keep it on the DL though haha).
but also because its a game that has captured the same feeling I have for sc2, I love the game, it isn't perfect, but riot is doing a damn good job promoting the game in Korea.
But then again you realize that TL's shifting more internationally. So yeah, even though League is bigger in Korea, this TL ain't the same as it was in years past.
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I was butthurt at first but then I remembered how much better this little subforum is than the SC2 gobbledegook. It is a bit surprising to me though considering this community is probably much more active than TL's DotA 2 community. Whatev, at least I'll have a bigger source for helping me improve at that game since I absolutely blow at it lol.
I guess this is the TL admins saying gg no re SC2, sorry but you're not doing too hot and we need to keep the site going
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I like this forum because honestly it's easier to find interesting and relevant information. When newbies ask we answer. When nothing's happening people are discussing the patch. When a competition is on people are discussing the teams and strategies.
Honestly if one thing comes from the change I hope it makes DotA 2 discussion more organized and good information easier to find on our site. Before I had a hard time finding things I wanted and the DotA 2 GD thread was pretty much all fluff.
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On August 31 2012 01:48 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:47 masterbreti wrote:
this is going to be my first techinal post on the LoL forums here but in all honesty I don't like the Dota adding, I much pefer LoL, not just because I don't play Dota2 (hell i played one game and got a hat, DOTA2 has hats now?!?) but because my korean sc2 clammates all play LoL. the sc2 pros I know all play LoL, (byun plays a really good vayne, keep it on the DL though haha).
but also because its a game that has captured the same feeling I have for sc2, I love the game, it isn't perfect, but riot is doing a damn good job promoting the game in Korea. But then again you realize that TL's shifting more internationally. So yeah, even though League is bigger in Korea, this TL ain't the same as it was in years past.
its not that, but LoL has 5x more viewers at any given point (aside from TI2) on twitch and Own3d. LoL is more more popualr and has a better community than DOTA2, Dota2 picked up a lot of the HoN community, which as we know, is a heap of crap.
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guess i have to learn how to play dota2 some, just so i can watch the coverage without being completely confused.
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Not surprised at all, League has always been looked down on in Teamliquid (even despised) outside our little subforum. Then again, I think League isn't ready to be an official part of Teamliquid just as much as Teamliquid isn't ready to add League.
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this is really good news, also gives me hope that LoL will be able to receive similar treatment in the future.
then again, i'm pretty sure that I wouldn't care one way or the other, since I just <3 all of you guys
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Smaller communities best communities. Also, I have to admit having distanced myself a bit from TL as time passed. Before SC2 I could say "I am a part of TeamLiquid's community", and a bit after the release of the game too. But the demographic shifted, and I lost interest in SC2, both as a player and as a viewer. As I picked up LoL a few months later, I discovered the TL LoL subforum, and learn to appreciate it, as a source of general information, then as a community of snarky but nice people.
Now that I'd rather introduce myself as "some unknown dude of TeamLiquid's LoL community", I don't really feel affected by the DotA pickup. I just hope it'll go smooth for them and the rest of the site, and that there won't be too many childish DotA-"siders" to come here and try to rub it in our faces. I wouldn't care, but I'd have to burn more calories scrolling my mouse's wheel to get to the quality content. 
Also I don't mean anything insulting to DotA's community, but we simply know that most of the SC2 community prefers DotA and a portion of them tends to hate on LoL in a non-constructive manner.
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On August 31 2012 01:54 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:48 Roffles wrote:On August 31 2012 01:47 masterbreti wrote:
this is going to be my first techinal post on the LoL forums here but in all honesty I don't like the Dota adding, I much pefer LoL, not just because I don't play Dota2 (hell i played one game and got a hat, DOTA2 has hats now?!?) but because my korean sc2 clammates all play LoL. the sc2 pros I know all play LoL, (byun plays a really good vayne, keep it on the DL though haha).
but also because its a game that has captured the same feeling I have for sc2, I love the game, it isn't perfect, but riot is doing a damn good job promoting the game in Korea. But then again you realize that TL's shifting more internationally. So yeah, even though League is bigger in Korea, this TL ain't the same as it was in years past. its not that, but LoL has 5x more viewers at any given point (aside from TI2) on twitch and Own3d. LoL is more more popualr and has a better community than DOTA2, Dota2 picked up a lot of the HoN community, which as we know, is a heap of crap.
I would argue that the majority of the LoL community is just as bad, if not worse than the DotA 2 community. I am pretty bad at DotA but I think I've only been straight up told that I suck and should go die once or twice, while I am much better at LoL and that happens way more frequently.
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On August 31 2012 01:54 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:48 Roffles wrote:On August 31 2012 01:47 masterbreti wrote:
this is going to be my first techinal post on the LoL forums here but in all honesty I don't like the Dota adding, I much pefer LoL, not just because I don't play Dota2 (hell i played one game and got a hat, DOTA2 has hats now?!?) but because my korean sc2 clammates all play LoL. the sc2 pros I know all play LoL, (byun plays a really good vayne, keep it on the DL though haha).
but also because its a game that has captured the same feeling I have for sc2, I love the game, it isn't perfect, but riot is doing a damn good job promoting the game in Korea. But then again you realize that TL's shifting more internationally. So yeah, even though League is bigger in Korea, this TL ain't the same as it was in years past. its not that, but LoL has 5x more viewers at any given point (aside from TI2) on twitch and Own3d. LoL is more more popualr and has a better community than DOTA2, Dota2 picked up a lot of the HoN community, which as we know, is a heap of crap.
Nah bro,
AllStars has more players than LoL does now
DotA2 has more viewers than LoL does now.
BECAUSE CHINA BRO
Source: DotA2 Coverage Announcement discussions
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On August 31 2012 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:54 masterbreti wrote:On August 31 2012 01:48 Roffles wrote:On August 31 2012 01:47 masterbreti wrote:
this is going to be my first techinal post on the LoL forums here but in all honesty I don't like the Dota adding, I much pefer LoL, not just because I don't play Dota2 (hell i played one game and got a hat, DOTA2 has hats now?!?) but because my korean sc2 clammates all play LoL. the sc2 pros I know all play LoL, (byun plays a really good vayne, keep it on the DL though haha).
but also because its a game that has captured the same feeling I have for sc2, I love the game, it isn't perfect, but riot is doing a damn good job promoting the game in Korea. But then again you realize that TL's shifting more internationally. So yeah, even though League is bigger in Korea, this TL ain't the same as it was in years past. its not that, but LoL has 5x more viewers at any given point (aside from TI2) on twitch and Own3d. LoL is more more popualr and has a better community than DOTA2, Dota2 picked up a lot of the HoN community, which as we know, is a heap of crap. Nah bro, AllStars has more players than LoL does now DotA2 has more viewers than LoL does now. BECAUSE CHINA BRO Source: DotA2 Coverage Announcement discussions
not sure if troll or sacastic.
anyways. even reading the thread on it, so many people bash LoL and don't get warned/banned and people who bash on dota2 get banned almost instantly.
Just fairly sure there is a lot of bias going around. and thats what bothers me more. I would rather see a sc only site than one with LoL or Dota2, or both. TL will always be my sc site.
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United States37500 Posts
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;<
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TBH the general starcraft people seem to have such a low opinion of LoL for some reason that it's not really a suprise that dota was chosen over it.
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But how is China even relevant to the growth of the scene....Can sponsors even advertise their product there,let alone place it?If Dota was such a huge thing in China and it was so easy to monetize it I'm pretty sure someone would have done it already.I don't see company's standing in line to support dota.
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why dont they like, cover both. I don't know any admins who don't play LoL.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On August 31 2012 02:09 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 31 2012 01:54 masterbreti wrote:On August 31 2012 01:48 Roffles wrote:On August 31 2012 01:47 masterbreti wrote:
this is going to be my first techinal post on the LoL forums here but in all honesty I don't like the Dota adding, I much pefer LoL, not just because I don't play Dota2 (hell i played one game and got a hat, DOTA2 has hats now?!?) but because my korean sc2 clammates all play LoL. the sc2 pros I know all play LoL, (byun plays a really good vayne, keep it on the DL though haha).
but also because its a game that has captured the same feeling I have for sc2, I love the game, it isn't perfect, but riot is doing a damn good job promoting the game in Korea. But then again you realize that TL's shifting more internationally. So yeah, even though League is bigger in Korea, this TL ain't the same as it was in years past. its not that, but LoL has 5x more viewers at any given point (aside from TI2) on twitch and Own3d. LoL is more more popualr and has a better community than DOTA2, Dota2 picked up a lot of the HoN community, which as we know, is a heap of crap. Nah bro, AllStars has more players than LoL does now DotA2 has more viewers than LoL does now. BECAUSE CHINA BRO Source: DotA2 Coverage Announcement discussions not sure if troll or sacastic. anyways. even reading the thread on it, so many people bash LoL and don't get warned/banned and people who bash on dota2 get banned almost instantly. Just fairly sure there is a lot of bias going around. and thats what bothers me more. I would rather see a sc only site than one with LoL or Dota2, or both. TL will always be my sc site.
Just like SC2/Dota players coming into the LoL subforum and bashing us get warned/banned, anyone going into that thread (in the Dota2 section) looking for trouble will get it. People can talk shit all they want about other games as long as they keep it to their own section.
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I'm happy for the DOTA LoL community getting something bigger for themselves. I find DOTA2 too dark to watch, but I'm happy for those that like it. I'll continue to watch LoL and SC2 (not really BW anymore) and enjoy lurking the TL forums as I usually have. About the only annoyance is that I had to reconfigure my sidebar again, taking all of 12 seconds in my life.
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it really doesnt matter... I like Dota, i like LoL both. i mean the LoL sub wasn't hurt by this expansion so its ok, and if anything if the Dota2 section goes well, maybe LoL will get one too
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I'm only worried that we'll get controversy of LoL v DotA2 the way we have BW v SC2. I've tried DotA2, I've tried watching DotA2... I will probably try again, but the first try I just wasn't really enthusiastic, and I got into these games starting with DotA.
Also... so that's why my sidebar got re-ordered and messed up. Argh!
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United States37500 Posts
On August 31 2012 02:14 TheKefka wrote:
But how is China even relevant to the growth of the scene....Can sponsors even advertise their product there,let alone place it?If Dota was such a huge thing in China and it was so easy to monetize it I'm pretty sure someone would have done it already.I don't see company's standing in line to support dota.
It's completely irrelevant. But not like that matters when fans throw viewership numbers around...
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Oh btw, Is Riot making any major headway into China? Will Riot eventually take a fair chunk of MOBA population there?
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On August 31 2012 02:14 TheKefka wrote:
But how is China even relevant to the growth of the scene....Can sponsors even advertise their product there,let alone place it?If Dota was such a huge thing in China and it was so easy to monetize it I'm pretty sure someone would have done it already.I don't see company's standing in line to support dota.
Chinese sponsors do, and that's relevant because China is one of the two markets that is seeing the biggest growth in eSports. Companies in China do advertise through their eSports teams and players, so the viewer counts from China matter a lot for monetization.
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I find it perfectly understandable. Dota 2 reached its stage, slowly opening from it's cocoon and starting to spread its wings where as LoL still needs more years before it's even evolving into a cocoon. That said, i hope to see LoL on the list in a few years.
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I personally think that this decision is kind of not rewarding for our LoL community, but well as said before, it'll keep it fairly small, avoiding all the kiddos.
I am however convinced that no matter what, LoL will still be more popular (at least in korea/EU/US) because its mechanics and graphics are way easier to understand. DotA seems to me a way more elitist game, even more with its 1h long games.
I am wondering something tho, people argue that DotA 2 is bigger because of the enormous playbase of DotA, but who said all these players will play DotA2 ? I mean, people still play BW and slowly convert to SC2, won't this happen with DotA 2 too ?
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I seem to remember Tobi-wan talking about the switch from the war3 to DotA 2 when he was interviewed on Real talk, he seemed to think that the switch will come sooner or later and that they really just want to have the ability to play with each other as they did in war3 or so I remember. So in short, they need to get the infrastructure in and get the game in PC cafe's I'd guess?
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On August 31 2012 02:39 -Zoda- wrote:
I personally think that this decision is kind of not rewarding for our LoL community, but well as said before, it'll keep it fairly small, avoiding all the kiddos.
I am however convinced that no matter what, LoL will still be more popular (at least in korea/EU/US) because its mechanics and graphics are way easier to understand. DotA seems to me a way more elitist game, even more with its 1h long games.
I am wondering something tho, people argue that DotA 2 is bigger because of the enormous playbase of DotA, but who said all these players will play DotA2 ? I mean, people still play BW and slowly convert to SC2, won't this happen with DotA 2 too ?
What's key is there aren't many major differences between DotA 2 and DotA; it's basically a graphics/UI overhaul. Imagine if SC2 was exactly like BW except for minor changes like unit grouping, auto-split etc. A transition from BW -> SC2 in that case would be relatively easy. The primary reason we haven't seen a transition for DotA 2 yet is because it's still in beta and incomplete, though it's rapidly approaching completion.
So porting the whole DotA community to DotA 2 isn't a pipe dream, but a natural progression. The same can't be said of transitioning from BW to SC2.
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Good for them. I enjoy Dota2 (watching and occasionally playing), and mostly due to tobiwan's excellent commentary. I wish the community the best.
I'm fine with this as long as the TL Dota community does not invade us with superiority complexes. We will remain civil to them, so I would expect nothing less from them.
You can't find a "TL for LoL" because we are that already. We are a small community that can police itself and has the good fortune to churn out (mostly) good content. I'd like to think we make Neo's life easy for the most part.
About the whole "TL B's lack of presence" thing: every single one of us, except for old man monte over here, is a full time student. I would love to be able to commit more time to take LoL more seriously. I do as much as I can for the community, but the simple fact is that I have a life outside my computer that I commit to as well, and I know I'm not unique in that. If I could practice as much as I wanted, I'm sure we could actually be a force to be reckoned with.
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On August 31 2012 02:39 -Zoda- wrote:
DotA seems to me a way more elitist game, even more with its 1h long games.
Just out of curiosity, where did the concept arise that DotA games are any longer (or shorter for that matter) than League games? I'm not going to do the math but from just having watched/played a lot of games of both, I feel like the average game length is pretty similar for both.
EDIT: In other news, anything that makes Tobi easier to watch is a plus in my book. The guy is so much fun to watch commentate.
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Well good for them, doesn't bother me one bit. I still get the content I want for LoL from here and reddit so it doesn't really concern me.
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Yeah I was disappointed but DoTA 2 is an obviously deserving game so congrats to them.
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On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;<
You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams.
Really good thread by Neo btw. LoL currently doesn't deserve its own section since its progaming scene is still so undeveloped (showcased gloriously by Dignitas and Curse, tyvm, and the inconsistency of top teams). On the other hand, Deman has it right in that LoL is screaming for a haven for its more mature community which cannot be found in the official LoL forums or reddit.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams. Really good thread by Neo btw. LoL currently doesn't deserve its own section since its progaming scene is still so undeveloped (showcased gloriously by Dignitas and Curse, tyvm, and the inconsistency of top teams). On the other hand, Deman has it right in that LoL is screaming for a haven for its more mature community which cannot be found in the official LoL forums or reddit.
Oh, I realize that LoL is crazy popular in China among the grass root players. Tencent. Need I say more?
But when it comes to the professional scene, China is DotA's mecca, like SC is for Korea.
Hopefully we'll get our own expanded section one day. But frankly, I'm in no rush. We need better infrastructure anyways. I rather not jump the gun.
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On August 31 2012 03:03 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Good for them. I enjoy Dota2 (watching and occasionally playing), and mostly due to tobiwan's excellent commentary. I wish the community the best.
I'm fine with this as long as the TL Dota community does not invade us with superiority complexes. We will remain civil to them, so I would expect nothing less from them.
You can't find a "TL for LoL" because we are that already. We are a small community that can police itself and has the good fortune to churn out (mostly) good content. I'd like to think we make Neo's life easy for the most part.
About the whole "TL B's lack of presence" thing: every single one of us, except for old man monte over here, is a full time student. I would love to be able to commit more time to take LoL more seriously. I do as much as I can for the community, but the simple fact is that I have a life outside my computer that I commit to as well, and I know I'm not unique in that. If I could practice as much as I wanted, I'm sure we could actually be a force to be reckoned with.
Ultimately the problem isn't that we have schedules and lives outside of LoL, but that our schedules don't all coincide. Over the course of an evening pretty much everyone shows up at some point, but almost never all at the same time, and when we are all there someone's gone AFK or doesn't have enough time to practice.
Not that we could have been professional level simply by having more conveniently aligned schedules, but we'd at least be able to play more than once in a blue moon.
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On August 31 2012 02:24 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 02:14 TheKefka wrote:
But how is China even relevant to the growth of the scene....Can sponsors even advertise their product there,let alone place it?If Dota was such a huge thing in China and it was so easy to monetize it I'm pretty sure someone would have done it already.I don't see company's standing in line to support dota. Chinese sponsors do, and that's relevant because China is one of the two markets that is seeing the biggest growth in eSports. Companies in China do advertise through their eSports teams and players, so the viewer counts from China matter a lot for monetization.
Yea I realize Chinese sponsors get something out of it.But my point is that it's a silly argument to make that "we have China we have the biggest dick" because China is already pretty isolated from the west as a whole,forget about China e-sports.It's silly that people bring China into every DOta vs LoL argument when not only that China has no real effect on the growth of Dota2 in the west financially,but they can't even asses the numbers of viewers from China,let alone monetize it.China is still like an island in that sense for marketing,unless I'm way off.
So other than the "HO HO HO WE GOT DEM VIEWES MANG,WE DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OR WHAT TO DO WITH THEM BUT WE GOT EM!",there is nothing to it.
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The fact that TL is moving to the MOBA style even a little bit is huge news. I might pick up DOTA 2 again now if it gets big enough exposure here.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Hi all! MoonBear here. Time to chime in with my thoughts since I missed the initial relaunch of the TL site.
This change has been in the pipes for a while, and wasn't an easy decision for the Admins to make, nor for the LoL Staff to accept. But at the end of the day, this is the decision that was made, and I understand why and I support it even if I am a bit jelly of the DotA Subforum.
To me the League of Legends Subforum is the closest thing we have to the old Broodwar Forums. We're a small, tight-knit group who pretty much knows each other well. We're laid back, understanding of each other and have probably the highest quality discussion out of all the subforums. I mean, we ban people like, never. (Except random people who come in and start a fight for no reason.) This is something we want to preserve. At this stage, we're truthfully not ready for a full scale forum like the DotA community. We lack the staff, we lack infrastructure and we lack the means to preserve our community atmosphere if we did.
But one day, we will rule this forum. Fear not. ;o
-MoonBear
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If its at all possible some of the staff should go check out the production quality of the nationals and really ask themselves if they don't want to be a part of "esports" as well produced as that.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:09 arnath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 02:39 -Zoda- wrote:
DotA seems to me a way more elitist game, even more with its 1h long games.
Just out of curiosity, where did the concept arise that DotA games are any longer (or shorter for that matter) than League games? I'm not going to do the math but from just having watched/played a lot of games of both, I feel like the average game length is pretty similar for both. EDIT: In other news, anything that makes Tobi easier to watch is a plus in my book. The guy is so much fun to watch commentate.
They aren't really that different in average game length anymore IMO. DotA games are still usually a tad longer, but I'd say 40 minutes is pretty normal for both games. A lot of this comes from an active effort by Icefrog to make games shorter and faster over the past few patches, as he recognizes this is one of the places where DotA has trailed behind its competitors.
Historically it actually was true that DotA matches were significantly longer. Some mechanics contributing to this include:
- You resurrect with 0 mana, so you have to wait for mana regen every time you leave base
- No cooldown on buybacks, making it very hard to high-ground push against a team that saved intelligently for buybacks, as every push could be 5v6 or 5v7
- No staggered duration on TP channel time (e.g. right now each consecutive TP to the same building within 10 seconds is 3 seconds longer than the last), so you could have 3+ players instantly appear at the same tower to defend it--now the staggered TP channel time means that a team has to plan their defense beforehand
All of these are no longer the case.
TBH the games are much more similar now than fanboys on either side would like to admit. A lot of impressions one way or the other are driven by outdated info one way or the other (DotA players who tried LoL 1-2 years ago or LoL players who used to play DotA 3-4 years ago).
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My question: Why not make a "MOBA" section, with DotA, LoL, and whatever else is popular atm (probably Smite soon, HoN used to be decently big) as subforums?
I don't mind the articles not being frontpaged and such though, I like the LoL forum as it is now.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote:
My question: Why not make a "MOBA" section, with DotA, LoL, and whatever else is popular atm (probably Smite soon, HoN used to be decently big) as subforums?
I don't mind the articles not being frontpaged and such though, I like the LoL forum as it is now.
Because bunching the LoL and DotA communities together is going to make everyone antsy.
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On August 31 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote:
My question: Why not make a "MOBA" section, with DotA, LoL, and whatever else is popular atm (probably Smite soon, HoN used to be decently big) as subforums?
I don't mind the articles not being frontpaged and such though, I like the LoL forum as it is now.
It becomes messy when you mix the two games together. The same way BW and SC2 strategy, news and discussion don't mix neither would DotA/LoL/everything else MOBA.
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On August 31 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote:
My question: Why not make a "MOBA" section, with DotA, LoL, and whatever else is popular atm (probably Smite soon, HoN used to be decently big) as subforums?
I don't mind the articles not being frontpaged and such though, I like the LoL forum as it is now.
MOBA is a messy term.
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On August 31 2012 03:54 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote:
My question: Why not make a "MOBA" section, with DotA, LoL, and whatever else is popular atm (probably Smite soon, HoN used to be decently big) as subforums?
I don't mind the articles not being frontpaged and such though, I like the LoL forum as it is now. It becomes messy when you mix the two games together. The same way BW and SC2 strategy, news and discussion don't mix neither would DotA/LoL/everything else MOBA.
But it was both under "Sports & Games" for a long time, and nobody died yet.
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United States15536 Posts
Yeah, I'll echo what lots of people have said already and just say that while I'd love for LoL to get this treatment, I'm glad TeamLiquid is moving to be a community space for more eSports titles than SC/SC2. And DotA2 deserves it because of its long-standing professional scene and existing hardcore community. No hate, all great. Now let's make it so LoL too climbs this ladder and becomes the next official TL eSport.
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I found the announcement and explanation about why DotA over LoL to be a little condescending despite them trying to sound fair. I would have been happy with them saying "Our staff plays DotA2, so it makes sense to cover DotA2, if we had more staff that played LoL, then we could pick up LoL". That at least gives us a path forward that could be worked towards. If I'm not mistaken, if we could get more people creating content consistently like Neo/Moon and all the others, then we wouldn't have to "ask" for an expansion, we would just have one.
This announcement just means I have to go out of my way even more now to avoid stupid "LoL isn't a real esport" posts/threads.
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Congrats to DotA2, nice to see TL adopting a "moba" game.
Dont worry fellow league players we are still young and our golden age will come soon™, let's just break the meta while we wait.
brb sunfire bird.
Thanks TL, you're awesome.
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Am I the only one who doesn't care? It just seems like people are trying to propagate the dick measuring contest.
Nothing about this, in the least, says that the LoL subforum can't do pretty much everything the DotA side wants to do (sans stream postings). If people wanted to, they could take the time to write up and edit articles about various tournaments, strats, or ideas. This only seems relevant to LoL in the sense that people will always take time to make LoL and DotA 2 comparisons... when they really shouldn't.
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On August 31 2012 01:09 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:44 WirelessWaffle wrote:On August 31 2012 00:40 Schmieds wrote:
I'm okay with this. TL LoL is cool right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the masses or r/LoL coming in here and spoiling it, however elitist that sounds. Imagine the lone mod vs the hordes of redditors foaming at the mouth about their awesome solo eves and legit support zyras that all rush trinity force for tons of damage. If it ever happens I'd like to open the betting for "when will Neo go bat shit insane." I could moderate /r/LoL by myself, npnp. + Show Spoiler +
r/leagueoflegends is just ridiculous to mod...I ended up stepping down because of the stuff the I had to deal with.
I don't think this news should be a "shock" to anyone. Not everyone likes Riot Games or League of Legends.
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On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams.
It has little to do with China vs. Korea. Korea is a recent comer in LoL and is far from being the mecca of LoL. LoL had been popular in China for years before Korea came into the scene, but the eSports side of it has never taken off. Chinese teams also do not play Korean teams frequently - the Koreans don't send their teams out a lot, and the last time a Chinese team was in a tournament, they were roflstomped by Western teams. Thinking that Korea's rather light presence on the LoL scene is the cause for LoL eSports not taking off in China is delusional.
The problem is that LoL eSports just isn't that popular in China. A lot of this is due to the established Dota eSports tradition - just about every popular 'MOBA' player in China is in Dota rather than LoL. There is Dota elitism in China, too, from what I've heard.
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I think the staff loves Dota more than LoL, that's why they picked it and also imo it's clearly the better game in their opinion. I kind of agree with them.
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So hilariously funny to read single-digit posters randomly bashing LoL in the Dota 2 thread of this announcement.
I personally don't mind it, keeps mentally handicapped posters far from TL LoL.
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Took 10 sec. of my life to recustomize my sidebar.
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On August 31 2012 01:25 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:24 Dusty wrote:
I saw the post over in the Dota 2 subforum, was butthurt, and moved on. Obviously since League is newer it still needs to prove itself, I suppose. Time will tell how it goes but I definitely see it getting the same attention soon. I think this will be a lot of people in TL LoL. Disappointing but we move on. We understand and we'll be better.
I gotta say, I like this approach, I always come to TL to read LoL threads when there are tournaments around.
I just wish the community's were less violent to each other, too much elitism going around.
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I kind of wish they picked LoL just to see how mad people would get but it's not a big deal. Our little admin staff are doing an amazing job with everything. We don't need TL involvement.
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its ok. if tl picked up LoL there would be too many people and i wouldnt be able to troll all of them.
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Tbh I was a little annoyed but mostly because the article TL puts out seemed a bit condescending. Otherwise, it's understandable and I don't mind too much. For me tho, TL is basically a LoL site with SC and DotA news. I came to TL originally for BW. SC2 was good but it didn't have the magic BW had and was disappointing to me in the end. LoL honestly was what kept me coming to this site.
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I think the ultimate reason is that dota is perceived to have more complex mechanics and higher skill ceiling than LoL, and no so much on the age of these games. Ask any old TLers about their opinion on WC3 and it will be very clear. TL does have rather a strong sense of elitism.
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But it is THURSDAY!!!
Isn't PAX supposed to be friday saturday sunday???
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On August 31 2012 04:42 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
But it is THURSDAY!!!
Isn't PAX supposed to be friday saturday sunday???
They decided that they could stretch it out.
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This news is not that unexpected. I was asking about it a few months back, but was told nothing was said. It's about time they finally announced this.
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Realistically, as much as I like league, dota2 is far more of an "e-sport". League reminds me somewhat of WoW arena attempt at "e-sports" - it's interesting to watch if actually play the game, but really, really dull if you don't. Pro games are just, quite literally, a snoozefest. I'm watching tsm.evo vs crs as I'm typing this and 15 mins in, score was 2-0. 2 kills in 15 minutes means what, 13 minutes of farming and 2 minutes of action? In dota, a kill a minute is pretty much standard (perhaps less so in chinese games), some games going for two kills a minute. end-game score was something like 15-25, because you had 3 consecutive aces before the game ended. First major battle was for dragon around 27 mins in. Thing is, nobody wants to watch farming for 20-25 minutes before the actual fighting starts.
It's kinda related to how stagnant the meta is and how some mechanics (mainly unlimited wards) are not creating an interesting game.
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kinda sucks to see dota 2 without LoL but it was kind of expected tbh
i enjoy playing the occasional match of dota 2 and watching the events so i'm okay with this
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I like DotA and SC2 about the same anyways so if they want to blur together on the main page then I don't mind. In the meantime I just go to the LoL subforum like I always have.
DotA community is just lucky to have tobi-wan. 
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On August 31 2012 05:20 greggy wrote:
It's kinda related to how stagnant the meta is and how some mechanics (mainly unlimited wards) are not creating an interesting game.
But you get DQ-ed when you try to make it interesting... :/
On a more serious note, oracle's is getting earlier and earlier.
It has become the go-to item after finishing mobility boots on the supportjunglers.
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On August 31 2012 05:20 greggy wrote:
Realistically, as much as I like league, dota2 is far more of an "e-sport". League reminds me somewhat of WoW arena attempt at "e-sports" - it's interesting to watch if actually play the game, but really, really dull if you don't. Pro games are just, quite literally, a snoozefest. I'm watching tsm.evo vs crs as I'm typing this and 15 mins in, score was 2-0. 2 kills in 15 minutes means what, 13 minutes of farming and 2 minutes of action? In dota, a kill a minute is pretty much standard (perhaps less so in chinese games), some games going for two kills a minute. end-game score was something like 15-25, because you had 3 consecutive aces before the game ended. First major battle was for dragon around 27 mins in. Thing is, nobody wants to watch farming for 20-25 minutes before the actual fighting starts.
It's kinda related to how stagnant the meta is and how some mechanics (mainly unlimited wards) are not creating an interesting game.
You sir, have been missing out on a whole load of LoL. Check out the Korean and Chinese teams, and also check out TL's analysis too!
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On August 31 2012 04:05 Takkara wrote:
I found the announcement and explanation about why DotA over LoL to be a little condescending despite them trying to sound fair. I would have been happy with them saying "Our staff plays DotA2, so it makes sense to cover DotA2, if we had more staff that played LoL, then we could pick up LoL". That at least gives us a path forward that could be worked towards. If I'm not mistaken, if we could get more people creating content consistently like Neo/Moon and all the others, then we wouldn't have to "ask" for an expansion, we would just have one.
This announcement just means I have to go out of my way even more now to avoid stupid "LoL isn't a real esport" posts/threads.
Hm. Perhaps it came out that way but no disrespect was meant. We just don't have the resources to cover LoL. Teamliquid has very exacting standard to what we put on the frontpage. That means a serious amount fo work is needed. However, there's very few staff who can actually produce good LoL content and we're already overworked just trying to do what we currently do. On the other hand, there's a sizeable number of staff who play DotA and can produce DotA content. Logistically, it just works out better that way.
Ignore the haters. They just jelly our subforum is so cool and chill cause their LR Threads are full of balance whine and nonsense~
On August 31 2012 04:10 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:09 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 31 2012 00:44 WirelessWaffle wrote:On August 31 2012 00:40 Schmieds wrote:
I'm okay with this. TL LoL is cool right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the masses or r/LoL coming in here and spoiling it, however elitist that sounds. Imagine the lone mod vs the hordes of redditors foaming at the mouth about their awesome solo eves and legit support zyras that all rush trinity force for tons of damage. If it ever happens I'd like to open the betting for "when will Neo go bat shit insane." I could moderate /r/LoL by myself, npnp. + Show Spoiler + r/leagueoflegends is just ridiculous to mod...I ended up stepping down because of the stuff the I had to deal with. I don't think this news should be a "shock" to anyone. Not everyone likes Riot Games or League of Legends.
I suggest the R1CH mod-bot method. Make a bot to moderate for you. And then it just bans everyone for being a shitty poster like Santa from Futurama. Problem solved. ;o
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With the amount of money Riot is pumping into competitive LoL right now it is really exploding as an e-sport and I'd love to see TL add a dedicated section just like they did for DotA2. At least consider doing so for Season 3. That being said the DotA2 expansion is still nice to see, it is a good game though I haven't really been following it myself recently. Glad to see that there's not much us-vs-them frothing in this thread, really shows how mature most of the TL community is (there's no reason why multiple e-sports can't coexist peacefully).
On August 31 2012 05:20 greggy wrote:
Realistically, as much as I like league, dota2 is far more of an "e-sport". League reminds me somewhat of WoW arena attempt at "e-sports" - it's interesting to watch if actually play the game, but really, really dull if you don't. Pro games are just, quite literally, a snoozefest. I'm watching tsm.evo vs crs as I'm typing this and 15 mins in, score was 2-0. 2 kills in 15 minutes means what, 13 minutes of farming and 2 minutes of action? In dota, a kill a minute is pretty much standard (perhaps less so in chinese games), some games going for two kills a minute. end-game score was something like 15-25, because you had 3 consecutive aces before the game ended. First major battle was for dragon around 27 mins in. Thing is, nobody wants to watch farming for 20-25 minutes before the actual fighting starts.
It's kinda related to how stagnant the meta is and how some mechanics (mainly unlimited wards) are not creating an interesting game.
Just remember this is a matter of preference, and not some sort of objective fact. I like low kill counts. I actually think kill counts in LoL pro games are still often too high. When a kill happens I want it to mean something, it should be the result of a big play and not just someone being caught ever so slightly out of position. I love skirmishes where everyone goes on low health and then the teams disengage and in the end nobody dies. It isn't everyone's cup of tea but neither are high-killcount games either. And LoL is infinitely more watchable than WoW, I tried watching competitive WoW back when I played it and even then it just wasn't very good to watch.
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Is not the TL LoL community much larger than the TL Dota community? I'm just wondering.. not upset or anything. I guess I understand why they chose Dota 2 as it seems far more accepted amongst SC2 fans than LoL is.
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As an outsider to mobas I perceive LoL as the next-big-thing esport and dota2 as an entirely niche product.
Maybe it's just marketing or the attitude of the respective communities but that's how it feels.
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Does TL have a DotA team? It seems somewhat random that the site is expanding for a game that hasn't been released yet. (not counting beta, of course)
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On August 31 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote:
My question: Why not make a "MOBA" section, with DotA, LoL, and whatever else is popular atm (probably Smite soon, HoN used to be decently big) as subforums?
I don't mind the articles not being frontpaged and such though, I like the LoL forum as it is now.
because the way things currently stand even labeling the genre as "MOBA" is a political statement
it's a fast growing, lucrative and increasingly competitive market and the conflicts between the companies are reflected by conflict in the community (not surprising seeing how the community created the genre and has to be won over by the publishers) - MOBA vs Action RTS vs Dota-likes, community-developed vs commercial, the trademark dispute (with each side claiming to act in the best interest of the community), Guinsoo vs Icefrog, Riot and Valve trying to outbid each other with price money, ...
Eventually some of the games will die and the rest will find their respective niche and once these niches are sufficiently distinct (so competition is less direct) people will be able to talk to each other again.
But that progress will take a long time and will suffer from disruptions - when I started playing LoL, it was pretty well established that LoL was the "casual" dota-like game and even when Season 1 arrived there were big question marks whether Riot was really committed to turn LoL into an esport (observer mode, replays, ... had been promised since beta but no signs of them). Most competitively minded players played the HoN Beta instead and it looked like the market had been neatly divided between Riot (mainstream audience) and S2 (DotA audience).
But then LoL livestreams grew immensely popular (LoL's graphics lend themselves very well to streaming at lowish bitrates, probably a huge windfall for Riot), Riot began to push seriously into esports, the HoN business model turned out to be a failure, Blizzard started talking about Dota, Valve announced Dota 2 and everything was in motion again.
It will take at least a year or two for the dust to settle and for tempers to cool down.
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Valve is pushing in-game eSports features into Dota 2 - such as in-game caster commentary, collective viewing experiences, and integrated pricing models for PPV - that far outstrip what Riot has in place. Riot has the advantage of bigger market penetration due to being the first F2P Dota clone besides WC 3 Dota - both HoN and Demi-God were pay to play games - and very intelligent marketing campaigns. But eSports wise, Riot has been throwing money at LoL while Valve has been throwing features, and I think the latter is the smarter move.
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On August 31 2012 03:52 Dandel Ion wrote:
My question: Why not make a "MOBA" section, with DotA, LoL, and whatever else is popular atm (probably Smite soon, HoN used to be decently big) as subforums?
I don't mind the articles not being frontpaged and such though, I like the LoL forum as it is now.
because other than the main objective the games don't really share anything similar
also most of the Dota 2 community don't like LoL
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I'm just a lurker but i've to say that TL LoL is clearly the best subforum, and the most enjoyable place with blogs. Being able to read things without the amount of retards and whiners populating the SC2 forum is really cool, and has some ppl said, small communities are the best.
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As irritated as I am about this, it's nice that I can now completely block the entire DotA2 subforum rather than only being able to minimize it.
It does come as obvious to me that this decision is a very biased one as not as "objective" as the OP would present. There's been consistent favoritism ever since the game was in beta.
When DotA2 was still in beta there was a two week featured event where any Joe Awful could pin their stream and be featured, while huge, official League tournaments couldn't even get an event (and have almost never managed to be on the calendar, only appearing when hosted by someone partnered with TL).
This is in addition to how DotA players were getting featured status by the barrel-full while the game was still in beta (closed beta at that, iirc). Also in addition to DotA getting a sub-section in record time (especially compared to ye olde single GD thread) while barely even released into beta, though this I find less of an issue than anything else.
That's just off the top of my head without even digging back into old threads where more was brought up.
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On August 31 2012 06:32 Kickboxer wrote:
As an outsider to mobas I perceive LoL as the next-big-thing esport and dota2 as an entirely niche product.
Maybe it's just marketing or the attitude of the respective communities but that's how it feels.
Yeah right, `Niche product`. I guess you know nothing about Dota and its history.
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They're both large, but in different areas. League is more dominate in the west from what I've seen.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2012 07:55 Craton wrote:
They're both large, but in different areas. League is more dominate in the west from what I've seen.
That's because Western League players are naive haven't realized how they have no chance against AsianKorean teams.
Western gamers have a poor history of actually sticking to games once Asian competitive dominance asserts itself.
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On August 31 2012 08:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 07:55 Craton wrote:
They're both large, but in different areas. League is more dominate in the west from what I've seen. That's because Western League players are naive haven't realized how they have no chance against AsianKorean teams. Western gamers have a poor history of actually sticking to games once Asian competitive dominance asserts itself.
American exceptionalism. If American sucks at it, it isn't exceptional.
I blame public school. Teaches you to coast when you're good at something, and give up when you aren't.
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On August 31 2012 01:03 little fancy wrote:As long as those DotA2 'hooligans' (the ones that only come here to provoke LoL vs DotA discussions like we had a few times in our GD thread) stay away I don't really care. DotA is known for its much more in-depth mechanical element (denying the enemy your own creeps, flexible path creating and the like) and in this sense is comparable to SC2. I understand the decision but couldn't care less at the same time (no offense). On the other hand, I have to quote a guy a few posts before me: Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:34 Amethyst21 wrote:
[...] Small communities=best communities. This pretty much sums it up.
This post sums up my thoughts.
But now I need to put more time into DotA 2 to get decent at it D: I wonder if TL will eventually have a team competing in tournaments for DotA.
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I don't think anyone who follows LoL is butthurt. These communities are just different. When I think TL, I think elitist. TeamLiuid wants to be the best. Teamliquid is cold and calculated, focused mainly on the Esport.
LoL is more about the actual game than the competitive scene. The community is more creative. People play it to have fun, and the have lots of fun with it. There are comic contests and cosplays along with the tournaments. I honestly don't think a LoL focused expansion is the right move for Teamliquid, no one would come over here to look at the content.
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On August 31 2012 06:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 05:20 greggy wrote:
Realistically, as much as I like league, dota2 is far more of an "e-sport". League reminds me somewhat of WoW arena attempt at "e-sports" - it's interesting to watch if actually play the game, but really, really dull if you don't. Pro games are just, quite literally, a snoozefest. I'm watching tsm.evo vs crs as I'm typing this and 15 mins in, score was 2-0. 2 kills in 15 minutes means what, 13 minutes of farming and 2 minutes of action? In dota, a kill a minute is pretty much standard (perhaps less so in chinese games), some games going for two kills a minute. end-game score was something like 15-25, because you had 3 consecutive aces before the game ended. First major battle was for dragon around 27 mins in. Thing is, nobody wants to watch farming for 20-25 minutes before the actual fighting starts.
It's kinda related to how stagnant the meta is and how some mechanics (mainly unlimited wards) are not creating an interesting game. You sir, have been missing out on a whole load of LoL. Check out the Korean and Chinese teams, and also check out TL's analysis too!
I've read that, and I admit it sounds rather interesting but afaik the koreans made a big impact to the proscene only very recently, and most tournaments are still exclusively EU/NA only?
tbf, I don't follow much pro LoL, it's just not very interesting to watch, imho.
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On August 31 2012 09:11 greggy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 06:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On August 31 2012 05:20 greggy wrote:
Realistically, as much as I like league, dota2 is far more of an "e-sport". League reminds me somewhat of WoW arena attempt at "e-sports" - it's interesting to watch if actually play the game, but really, really dull if you don't. Pro games are just, quite literally, a snoozefest. I'm watching tsm.evo vs crs as I'm typing this and 15 mins in, score was 2-0. 2 kills in 15 minutes means what, 13 minutes of farming and 2 minutes of action? In dota, a kill a minute is pretty much standard (perhaps less so in chinese games), some games going for two kills a minute. end-game score was something like 15-25, because you had 3 consecutive aces before the game ended. First major battle was for dragon around 27 mins in. Thing is, nobody wants to watch farming for 20-25 minutes before the actual fighting starts.
It's kinda related to how stagnant the meta is and how some mechanics (mainly unlimited wards) are not creating an interesting game. You sir, have been missing out on a whole load of LoL. Check out the Korean and Chinese teams, and also check out TL's analysis too! I've read that, and I admit it sounds rather interesting but afaik the koreans made a big impact to the proscene only very recently, and most tournaments are still exclusively EU/NA only?
Correct.
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Realistically it would have been a terrible move to create a TL LoL expansion right now, It would absolutely enrage a huge part of the TL userbase purely due to the (completely unwarranted) awful-casual-noob reputation LoL still holds in a good part of the population, and having it be the first non SC game to get an expansion.
Now that we have a DOTA2 expansion it will be a much easier transition to an eventual official LoL one a bit later without too much fuss. As time goes on more people actually play the game and realize how it is actually solid too.
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You know, that's actually a reasonable outlook on the matter.
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On August 31 2012 07:47 Bleak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 06:32 Kickboxer wrote:
As an outsider to mobas I perceive LoL as the next-big-thing esport and dota2 as an entirely niche product.
Maybe it's just marketing or the attitude of the respective communities but that's how it feels. Yeah right, `Niche product`. I guess you know nothing about Dota and its history.
Why are you attacking him directly? He even stated that he was an outsider to the genre, why should he know anything about Dota or its history... or even care for that matter? The point is, here in the west, Riot is marketing their game as a e-sport a lot more aggressively than Valve is (with partnerships with organizations like MLG and IPL). To an outside viewer, that shows that league is probably more of a legitimate e-sport, especially if they know nothing about the genre as a whole.
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I come to TL for SC2 news and I follow here on the LoL. I have had played a lot of dota like 4-7 years ago. I never knew one piece of that pro scene, while I knew a little of BW (and now more) while I enjoyed following the LoL scene lightly.
How big is DotA 2 pro scene right now? The game is still in "beta", which is absurd since the game is always evolving with new heroes, thought I guess right now they are basically remaking a game still and not adding anything new.
I might read some of the DotA news and gauge my interest. Can always hide it if it gets in the way of SC2 stuff I want to read.
As others have said it just seemed more shocked since LoL has a larger playerbase. DotA is on the rise tho and has some history, much like BW > SC2 (which also got a lot of new TL.net users).
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On August 31 2012 09:53 Sufinsil wrote:
I come to TL for SC2 news and I follow here on the LoL. I have had played a lot of dota like 4-7 years ago. I never knew one piece of that pro scene, while I knew a little of BW (and now more) while I enjoyed following the LoL scene lightly.
How big is DotA 2 pro scene right now? The game is still in "beta", which is absurd since the game is always evolving with new heroes, thought I guess right now they are basically remaking a game still and not adding anything new.
I might read some of the DotA news and gauge my interest. Can always hide it if it gets in the way of SC2 stuff I want to read.
As others have said it just seemed more shocked since LoL has a larger playerbase. DotA is on the rise tho and has some history, much like BW > SC2 (which also got a lot of new TL.net users).
This weekend will prove how big Dota 2 is or will become with the upcoming International tournament.
The first day of the preliminary matches (the games to determine seeding for the actual tournament) had a max viewercount of around 150k spread over 4 games being played at the same time.
For the finals I personally expect between 300-400k viewers but we won't know that until sunday.
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this doesn't come a surprise (hello, LoL "pro" scene aka dig and crs... still pretty fumed about that nonsense) nor a disappointment. i think a lot of us here on LoL play DotA2 and vice-versa. i don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with promoting yourself as a pro-dota community as long as you allow lol conversation and whatnot. nothing should change here. i do think it would be cool to have a real competitive/high-level poster lol forum, something like we have here where good players can talk good strats and not-quite-as-good-players can learn. in fact it'd be something i'd be willing to put together. unfortunately because of the "star" power that TL carries, i doubt many other people would be interested. it's something a lot of people like to talk about but no one wants to do anything about.
in the end, dota2 is a great game but will never reach the levels that LoL will reach simply because teemo exists. like seriously could anything that cute ever be conceived again? highly unlikely
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On August 31 2012 09:53 Sufinsil wrote:
I come to TL for SC2 news and I follow here on the LoL. I have had played a lot of dota like 4-7 years ago. I never knew one piece of that pro scene, while I knew a little of BW (and now more) while I enjoyed following the LoL scene lightly.
How big is DotA 2 pro scene right now? The game is still in "beta", which is absurd since the game is always evolving with new heroes, thought I guess right now they are basically remaking a game still and not adding anything new.
I might read some of the DotA news and gauge my interest. Can always hide it if it gets in the way of SC2 stuff I want to read.
As others have said it just seemed more shocked since LoL has a larger playerbase. DotA is on the rise tho and has some history, much like BW > SC2 (which also got a lot of new TL.net users).
The pro-scene is pretty large already. More players will eventually move over from DotA and the presence in China will become far greater once released. Keep in mind though that LoL was grounded on casual play that seeped into the E-sport scene whereas DotA has been part of the E-sport scene for +4 years. It is not the quanitity but quality (which means, not how many play, but what is it as a whole).
Another part to keep in mind, as stated by others from Tl. A good portion of the TL staff play DotA 2, which means the transition of keeping TL the way it is while including DotA 2 is far easier.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
I am a little bit sad that Dota 2 was picked and not LoL. TL is at the moment the only source for high quality LoL coverage.
Riot puts so much energy and money into esports and tries to make it happen. They tried f2p and succeeded and showed that
gamer are not people who only torrent and stuff but will pay for a good game. With a own section the LoL team would get more attention to their articles which they deserve
In addition Riot is not your typical suit company instead they are people who love videogames.
LoL has worldwide esports coverage with huge tournaments, TV broadcasting while Dota has a beta.
From what I understood LoL still got the chance to get its own section on TL. I am looking forward to this date when we will achieve it.
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United States23745 Posts
As someone who has no real knowledge of Starcraft's competitive scene, my first expose to TL was actually Moonbear's LoL analysis for the MLG Summer Arena. I was floored by the amount of detail that went into this very professional analysis. As soon as I read it I hoped I could find some resource that provided the same quality content but more frequently, sadly I could not. I would assume if TL picked up LoL officially I could get this experience that I greatly crave. Sadly, it seems that this won't be the case (at least for now). From what I've read though, Dota 2 seems like the more logical choice for the TL staff.
To the point Deman made a while back, LoL really needs it's own community focused website. The community is far to reliant on Reddit for interesting articles (which usually end up buried in between fan art and "DAE think...?" posts.
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agh. I was hoping TL could be the first all encompassing LoL forum. Mods and community are above and beyond other sites, and it sucks going to r/lol for news and tourney results. It says something that with such a small community and moderator team, this section still has the best tourney threads.
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The thing is I want western LOL to succeed and have staying power. I know it is completely irrational, but part of the reason why I got turned off the SC2 scene is the Korean domination. Riot is willing put up the necessary conditions for progamers to sustain themselves and to fully train as much as the koreans. The big personalities in Lol such as TSM or CLG is a big reason for why I follow the scene. I want these teams to continue to remain competitive on an international level. This is of course not to disparage the Koreans themselves in anyway. I LOVE what they done with the meta and showing off those aggressive styles.
I hope that Riot's initial investments will pay off and create a stable scene. That way the scene in NA, Europe and Asia will be isolated to a certain extent which I think will be beneficial in a certain way. The teams can duke it out among themselves for their continent and occasionally clashing with other world powers outside of riot's league. That way, we don't necessarily see the Koreans dominating all foreign tournaments.
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After BW, when SC II became infested with people from reddit, 4chan, or what people call "the internet," I picked up LoL because this subforum reminds me of the good ole days of Brood War. LoL will never be as good as BW, but this small community keeps the nostalgia alive.
Plus, I know the two sides are separate for the most part on TL, but I really want LoL and DotA to have nothing to do with one another. DotA may be a good game, hell it can be 100 times better than LoL for all I care, but the aristocratic arrogance is just plain annoying. It reminds me of a peasant vs the noble situation.
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I almost never play dota/dota2 since I started to play LoL but I understand this decision 100%. DotA2 as a game, from both dev and player side, is much more polished than LoL. LoL is extremely different from DotA and needs time to evolve if it wants to have the same depth. LoL has to go a long way to reach such a status. I still enjoy watching DotA games more than LoL games, so overall this decision feels right. I really like what Riot is doing though and I almost fully support their design, in the other hand they sometimes forget where LoL is comming from and that it could learn a few things from the 'old' game. same goes for us players.
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Good post! Good guy NeoIllusions
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The main reason to be sad is that TL's articles/coverage are of such high quality, and we'd all love to see frequent top class write ups on LoL. But as Moonbear says, they don't have the resources right now, so I guess we can just hope for the future.
I'm also really happy Dota2 seems to be doing so well - I think having Lol and Dota2 in competition will encourage a lot of innovation and be great for all of us.
About China and esports:
I'm living in China right now, and I think the esports side is growing fast. I've met so many random people who love the game - a coworker, friends online, and a guy who'd just opened a noodle shop. It's hard to get across what a big deal Tencent is - basically any internet user will use their QQ messaging service, which frequently has ads for LoL, or links to competitions/cosplays, etc. Even people who don't play or like games are increasingly aware of it.
While a lot of these players are obviously casual, I think in the future we'll see some DOTA-esque LoL teams emerging out of the huge playerbase.
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On August 31 2012 04:12 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams. It has little to do with China vs. Korea. Korea is a recent comer in LoL and is far from being the mecca of LoL. LoL had been popular in China for years before Korea came into the scene, but the eSports side of it has never taken off. Chinese teams also do not play Korean teams frequently - the Koreans don't send their teams out a lot, and the last time a Chinese team was in a tournament, they were roflstomped by Western teams. Thinking that Korea's rather light presence on the LoL scene is the cause for LoL eSports not taking off in China is delusional. The problem is that LoL eSports just isn't that popular in China. A lot of this is due to the established Dota eSports tradition - just about every popular 'MOBA' player in China is in Dota rather than LoL. There is Dota elitism in China, too, from what I've heard.
That was quite an aggressive response. LoL has only really started to take off in China at the start of this year and the viewership has been steadily growing. However, the lack of success of Chinese teams in international events, especially the failure of WE to perform on the big stage and the inconsistency of iG, actually is one of the biggest reasons why LoL viewership has stalled a bit recently. Sure, it is not to do with China vs Korea as a direct confrontation. What I actually meant with my Korean reference is that there is a culture of winning or being the best in China that is so ingrained that if it seems that Chinese LoL is not up there with the best in the world (i.e. currently the Koreans), then their interest in it is diminished greatly.
What you claimed about LoL and DotA isn't even accurate. Of course there is DotA elitism but if you were actually in China and interacting with the Chinese MOBA community right now, then you would know that the majority of DotA casual players have already moved on to LoL, and it takes casual fans to make an industry. Further, esports in China in general is not that big a thing and is overhyped by the international DotA community. Most people would rather spend their time playing the game, be it DotA or LoL, than watch other people play it, mostly because time is of such shortage to anyone who is not a uni student with a rich family background in China.
Anyway, I won't post more about this here because I've gone way off-topic now. I really hope TL LoL can become a thing in a year or so with the advent of S4 because the international esports community really needs it.
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I am dissapointed that TL chose to add Dota 2 but not LoL. May be in the future Dota 2 will be big, but right now its THE game. Esp with Chinese people go wild for it. Just 2 months after officially released in China, I see alot of LoL players at China PC Bang which SC2 can't archive for more than a year.
On the other hand, LoL remains a small community on TL is a good thing though. As many have said before me, this is like the old day of TL with BW.
Not sure how TL will go after this, adding a MOBA is cool but if not managed correctly it may back-fire and make TL a generic gaming website which I think all of us don't want to that to happen. I guess it all comes down to new people that comes to TL because of Dota 2. If they can keep up the spirit of people that loved TL because of BW/SC2, TL could do well.
EDIT: Concern China LoL from the above post. You got it right, I am living in Shanghai rightnow and LoL has already grown quite big here. It attaches not only Dota players but alot of new comers as well. I've never seen a game that is not MMORPG attaches that much gamers in such a short time both male and female.
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On August 31 2012 10:02 Nilrem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 09:53 Sufinsil wrote:
I come to TL for SC2 news and I follow here on the LoL. I have had played a lot of dota like 4-7 years ago. I never knew one piece of that pro scene, while I knew a little of BW (and now more) while I enjoyed following the LoL scene lightly.
How big is DotA 2 pro scene right now? The game is still in "beta", which is absurd since the game is always evolving with new heroes, thought I guess right now they are basically remaking a game still and not adding anything new.
I might read some of the DotA news and gauge my interest. Can always hide it if it gets in the way of SC2 stuff I want to read.
As others have said it just seemed more shocked since LoL has a larger playerbase. DotA is on the rise tho and has some history, much like BW > SC2 (which also got a lot of new TL.net users). The pro-scene is pretty large already. More players will eventually move over from DotA and the presence in China will become far greater once released. Keep in mind though that LoL was grounded on casual play that seeped into the E-sport scene whereas DotA has been part of the E-sport scene for +4 years. It is not the quanitity but quality (which means, not how many play, but what is it as a whole). Another part to keep in mind, as stated by others from Tl. A good portion of the TL staff play DotA 2, which means the transition of keeping TL the way it is while including DotA 2 is far easier.
Dota2 has none of the magic of the original game, ive had beta since it was released or shortly after it was. I played like 5 games, said it was shitty and not like the first one and haven't touched it since.'
I mean sure you have alot of multitasking possiblities, but in Dota it just seems like an awful chore. Coming from someone who played Terran at C level thats a pretty big deal, everything you do seems like such a hassle, denying blah blah. Can never tell whats going on in teamfights at all either
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On August 31 2012 12:53 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 04:12 Azarkon wrote:On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams. It has little to do with China vs. Korea. Korea is a recent comer in LoL and is far from being the mecca of LoL. LoL had been popular in China for years before Korea came into the scene, but the eSports side of it has never taken off. Chinese teams also do not play Korean teams frequently - the Koreans don't send their teams out a lot, and the last time a Chinese team was in a tournament, they were roflstomped by Western teams. Thinking that Korea's rather light presence on the LoL scene is the cause for LoL eSports not taking off in China is delusional. The problem is that LoL eSports just isn't that popular in China. A lot of this is due to the established Dota eSports tradition - just about every popular 'MOBA' player in China is in Dota rather than LoL. There is Dota elitism in China, too, from what I've heard. That was quite an aggressive response. LoL has only really started to take off in China at the start of this year and the viewership has been steadily growing. However, the lack of success of Chinese teams in international events, especially the failure of WE to perform on the big stage and the inconsistency of iG, actually is one of the biggest reasons why LoL viewership has stalled a bit recently. Sure, it is not to do with China vs Korea as a direct confrontation. What I actually meant with my Korean reference is that there is a culture of winning or being the best in China that is so ingrained that if it seems that Chinese LoL is not up there with the best in the world (i.e. currently the Koreans), then their interest in it is diminished greatly. What you claimed about LoL and DotA isn't even accurate. Of course there is DotA elitism but if you were actually in China and interacting with the Chinese MOBA community right now, then you would know that the majority of DotA casual players have already moved on to LoL, and it takes casual fans to make an industry. Further, esports in China in general is not that big a thing and is overhyped by the international DotA community. Most people would rather spend their time playing the game, be it DotA or LoL, than watch other people play it, mostly because time is of such shortage to anyone who is not a uni student with a rich family background in China. Anyway, I won't post more about this here because I've gone way off-topic now. I really hope TL LoL can become a thing in a year or so with the advent of S4 because the international esports community really needs it.
Man, I wish people would realize this more often. You don't get millions of viewers by being elitist, you get it by being approachable by anone. Normal sports realized this long ago - what are elementary/middle/high school sports if not casual? Youth leagues? Amateur adult leagues?
But instead, people point at shit and call it casual-friendly, meaning it as an insult. So short-sighted!
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On August 31 2012 13:11 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 12:53 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 04:12 Azarkon wrote:On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams. It has little to do with China vs. Korea. Korea is a recent comer in LoL and is far from being the mecca of LoL. LoL had been popular in China for years before Korea came into the scene, but the eSports side of it has never taken off. Chinese teams also do not play Korean teams frequently - the Koreans don't send their teams out a lot, and the last time a Chinese team was in a tournament, they were roflstomped by Western teams. Thinking that Korea's rather light presence on the LoL scene is the cause for LoL eSports not taking off in China is delusional. The problem is that LoL eSports just isn't that popular in China. A lot of this is due to the established Dota eSports tradition - just about every popular 'MOBA' player in China is in Dota rather than LoL. There is Dota elitism in China, too, from what I've heard. That was quite an aggressive response. LoL has only really started to take off in China at the start of this year and the viewership has been steadily growing. However, the lack of success of Chinese teams in international events, especially the failure of WE to perform on the big stage and the inconsistency of iG, actually is one of the biggest reasons why LoL viewership has stalled a bit recently. Sure, it is not to do with China vs Korea as a direct confrontation. What I actually meant with my Korean reference is that there is a culture of winning or being the best in China that is so ingrained that if it seems that Chinese LoL is not up there with the best in the world (i.e. currently the Koreans), then their interest in it is diminished greatly. What you claimed about LoL and DotA isn't even accurate. Of course there is DotA elitism but if you were actually in China and interacting with the Chinese MOBA community right now, then you would know that the majority of DotA casual players have already moved on to LoL, and it takes casual fans to make an industry. Further, esports in China in general is not that big a thing and is overhyped by the international DotA community. Most people would rather spend their time playing the game, be it DotA or LoL, than watch other people play it, mostly because time is of such shortage to anyone who is not a uni student with a rich family background in China. Anyway, I won't post more about this here because I've gone way off-topic now. I really hope TL LoL can become a thing in a year or so with the advent of S4 because the international esports community really needs it. Man, I wish people would realize this more often. You don't get millions of viewers by being elitist, you get it by being approachable by anone. Normal sports realized this long ago - what are elementary/middle/high school sports if not casual? Youth leagues? Amateur adult leagues? But instead, people point at shit and call it casual-friendly, meaning it as an insult. So short-sighted!
as much as I wished every caster was as in depth as Artosis when I used to watch SC2, half the time I watch Tobi, I have no fucking clue what it happening.
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On August 31 2012 13:07 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 10:02 Nilrem wrote:On August 31 2012 09:53 Sufinsil wrote:
I come to TL for SC2 news and I follow here on the LoL. I have had played a lot of dota like 4-7 years ago. I never knew one piece of that pro scene, while I knew a little of BW (and now more) while I enjoyed following the LoL scene lightly.
How big is DotA 2 pro scene right now? The game is still in "beta", which is absurd since the game is always evolving with new heroes, thought I guess right now they are basically remaking a game still and not adding anything new.
I might read some of the DotA news and gauge my interest. Can always hide it if it gets in the way of SC2 stuff I want to read.
As others have said it just seemed more shocked since LoL has a larger playerbase. DotA is on the rise tho and has some history, much like BW > SC2 (which also got a lot of new TL.net users). The pro-scene is pretty large already. More players will eventually move over from DotA and the presence in China will become far greater once released. Keep in mind though that LoL was grounded on casual play that seeped into the E-sport scene whereas DotA has been part of the E-sport scene for +4 years. It is not the quanitity but quality (which means, not how many play, but what is it as a whole). Another part to keep in mind, as stated by others from Tl. A good portion of the TL staff play DotA 2, which means the transition of keeping TL the way it is while including DotA 2 is far easier. Dota2 has none of the magic of the original game, ive had beta since it was released or shortly after it was. I played like 5 games, said it was shitty and not like the first one and haven't touched it since.' I mean sure you have alot of multitasking possiblities, but in Dota it just seems like an awful chore. Coming from someone who played Terran at C level thats a pretty big deal, everything you do seems like such a hassle, denying blah blah. Can never tell whats going on in teamfights at all either
That I do not agree with. The "magic" is entirely subjective so really dependent on the person. As with your anecdote, I tried LoL before DotA 2 beta came out. I played it several times and generally did not enjoy the general feel of the game. I did not have fun, even when walking over random players. Even when my friends to play LoL a lot, competeively (in some cases), I end up telling them that it is just not for me.
It ends up being due to the entire package. Denying is something I really missed when playing LoL. It added another dynamic role and possibility. Having to ask yourself, am I needing the gold more or should I try to hinder the other player? It adds choice and consequence. Granted, I realize not everyone feels the same, some prefer it while others dislike it. As for what is going on in the teamfights, it comes from experience. It is the same with rts's, arts, mobas, etc. As you play the game, the better you get at discerning what goes on. During LoL matches, a lot of it comes off as a blur, a mess, etc. but that is because I do not have the experience of other players. Whereas in DotA 2, I see the skills (and sound of them) differentiated enough to where they are easily discernable. But then again, this is why there are two games, so people can pick-and-choose which ever mechanics they prefer.
Side note, I was C but as zerg, C- protoss, and never played terran (hated them... even in Sc2 haha).
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The reason some gaming teams create a Dota 2 division just because they want to be there once Dota 2 is officially released. If Dota 2 fail to attach casual players and grow big, they would just disband the teams.
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I am deeply saddened by the news that TL has chosen Dota 2 over LoL.
Dota's champions are too bland. They're not cutesy like Teemo, or have giant overwhelming tits like LoL supports. It's just a more mechanically challenging game that is not aesthetically pleasing.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2012 13:19 Caphe wrote:
The reason some gaming teams create a Dota 2 division just because they want to be there once Dota 2 is officially released. If Dota 2 fail to attach casual players and grow big, they would just disband the teams.
Valve considers DotA 2 to be a fully released game at this point.
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honestly you can buy into the beta, they are obviously just milking the "beta phase" so they can call it f2p when it does get "finished"
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I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games.
Why is Korea more important than China?
DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost.
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On August 31 2012 10:37 Shiragaku wrote:
After BW, when SC II became infested with people from reddit, 4chan, or what people call "the internet," I picked up LoL because this subforum reminds me of the good ole days of Brood War. LoL will never be as good as BW, but this small community keeps the nostalgia alive.
Plus, I know the two sides are separate for the most part on TL, but I really want LoL and DotA to have nothing to do with one another. DotA may be a good game, hell it can be 100 times better than LoL for all I care, but the aristocratic arrogance is just plain annoying. It reminds me of a peasant vs the noble situation.
Teamliquid has always been a site for the arrogant. The mods and personalities here are inherently arrogant.
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As I see it, I don't see dota2 being beat by any other 'moba' style game in the end. Behind it are pretty much the currently undisputed best developers in the video game industry, and the entire dota development even before valve was just rock solid. With LoL you have new heroes and balance patches every 3 weeks, massively changing what is possible in the game, I feel like this hurts LoL development greatly because you never have enough time to really explore things before hero power has changed. TL has made the best long term decision in my opinion.
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Hmm definitely think DotA(2) has much more status than LoL and why it takes priority, but at the same time, would have loved to see both ^_^
Perhaps a DotA2 team one day?
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On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost.
I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden.
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I think its great that TL is expanding. The whole LoL vs Dota vs SC2 should not be so. They are all apart of esports and to truly grow it you will need more then one game so they should support each other, even if you aren't interested in the other games out there.
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china has no pop/subculture attraction to the majority of gamers.
it is regarded as bland, uninspiring and generally a turn-off
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On August 31 2012 10:37 Shiragaku wrote:
After BW, when SC II became infested with people from reddit, 4chan, or what people call "the internet," I picked up LoL because this subforum reminds me of the good ole days of Brood War. LoL will never be as good as BW, but this small community keeps the nostalgia alive.
Plus, I know the two sides are separate for the most part on TL, but I really want LoL and DotA to have nothing to do with one another. DotA may be a good game, hell it can be 100 times better than LoL for all I care, but the aristocratic arrogance is just plain annoying. It reminds me of a peasant vs the noble situation.
Yeah, the Dota 2 community leaves something to be desired. I used to play the original Dota back in the day. Then I tried playing a game with the TL inhouse... well, I got cursed out for trying to ruin the game on purpose and got told to go back to solo queue  Haven't looked back.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden.
Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance.
Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west...
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On August 31 2012 13:24 0123456789 wrote:
I am deeply saddened by the news that TL has chosen Dota 2 over LoL.
Dota's champions are too bland. They're not cutesy like Teemo, or have giant overwhelming tits like LoL supports. It's just a more mechanically challenging game that is not aesthetically pleasing.
Yeah, they should definitely favour aesthetics over a solid gameplay.
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On August 31 2012 17:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden. Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance. Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west...
Does valve even have a distributor in china yet?
The awesome part of the ten cent riot deal was that riot games got instant access to the Chinese population.
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On August 31 2012 12:53 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 04:12 Azarkon wrote:On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams. It has little to do with China vs. Korea. Korea is a recent comer in LoL and is far from being the mecca of LoL. LoL had been popular in China for years before Korea came into the scene, but the eSports side of it has never taken off. Chinese teams also do not play Korean teams frequently - the Koreans don't send their teams out a lot, and the last time a Chinese team was in a tournament, they were roflstomped by Western teams. Thinking that Korea's rather light presence on the LoL scene is the cause for LoL eSports not taking off in China is delusional. The problem is that LoL eSports just isn't that popular in China. A lot of this is due to the established Dota eSports tradition - just about every popular 'MOBA' player in China is in Dota rather than LoL. There is Dota elitism in China, too, from what I've heard. That was quite an aggressive response. LoL has only really started to take off in China at the start of this year and the viewership has been steadily growing. However, the lack of success of Chinese teams in international events, especially the failure of WE to perform on the big stage and the inconsistency of iG, actually is one of the biggest reasons why LoL viewership has stalled a bit recently. Sure, it is not to do with China vs Korea as a direct confrontation. What I actually meant with my Korean reference is that there is a culture of winning or being the best in China that is so ingrained that if it seems that Chinese LoL is not up there with the best in the world (i.e. currently the Koreans), then their interest in it is diminished greatly. What you claimed about LoL and DotA isn't even accurate. Of course there is DotA elitism but if you were actually in China and interacting with the Chinese MOBA community right now, then you would know that the majority of DotA casual players have already moved on to LoL, and it takes casual fans to make an industry. Further, esports in China in general is not that big a thing and is overhyped by the international DotA community. Most people would rather spend their time playing the game, be it DotA or LoL, than watch other people play it, mostly because time is of such shortage to anyone who is not a uni student with a rich family background in China. Anyway, I won't post more about this here because I've gone way off-topic now. I really hope TL LoL can become a thing in a year or so with the advent of S4 because the international esports community really needs it.
The vast majority of casual gamers do not watch eSports. You say this yourself. So, when talking about eSports, we are talking about a segment of society that isn't quite 'casual' in the way that the rest of it is.
LoL's market penetration in China is fairly deep and the player population is large, but its eSports scene has not taken off. You're correct to say that LoL's problems in China have to do with the lack of world class Chinese teams, but you haven't asked why that is. In this you've ignored the second half of my comment - which is that Dota elitism prevents players from joining the game, not viewers. Chinese Dota players, who are the bread and butter of their competitive MOBA scene, are not switching to LoL because they consider it an inferior game to Dota and Dota 2.
Players passionate enough and capable of becoming eSports stars are few and far in between. Casual gamers are never going to rise to the occasion, so whether there's millions / tens of millions of casual gamers matter little. What matters is the segment of players skilled enough and passionate enough that they're willing to go pro. This community has its own subculture, and this subculture, in China, is defined by a Dota tradition.
When you have the vast majority of your present MOBA pro players saying that they're not switching to LoL because it's a low skill game, and that they're going to go to Dota 2 instead, there is a bandwagon effect on the rest of the pro gaming capable community. There is a feeling among top Chinese MOBA players that those who are not able to cut it in Dota, go play LoL. That is one cause for why LoL eSports has not become huge in China - because of the lack of star players, which leads to the lack of great teams.
Speaking for myself only, Dota is a far better watching experience than LoL. But that is subjective. What is not subjective is that there's a difference between a popular game and a popular eSports. WoW is an immensely popular game, but WoW Arena is a failure of an eSport. Throwing money into tournaments won't get you where you want to be, not by itself. Riot has to understand that and not just sniffle at the inflated viewer counts they're able to get.
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On August 31 2012 18:12 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 17:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden. Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance. Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west... Does valve even have a distributor in china yet? The awesome part of the ten cent riot deal was that riot games got instant access to the Chinese population.
I think Perfect World is going to be their Chinese partner.
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On August 31 2012 17:08 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 14:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 31 2012 13:39 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2012 13:38 czylu wrote:
I think really the deciding factor between which game ultimately succeeds, is which game gets the most korean support. That said, I can't see why there can't be a pepsi vs coke synergy for the 2 games. Why is Korea more important than China? DotA 2 virtually has no standing in Korea at all. It's China where there's ground to be gained and lost. I would think Korea is much more important than China in the worldwide scheme of things, unless chinese teams/events etc become a LOT more foreign friendly all of a sudden. Korean BW was completely shut off from the western world for 10 years, that didn't stop Blizzard from fighting tooth and nail to establish SC2 in Korea above all else. same follows with Valve with Dota2 following Chinese DotA dominance. Just look at the attention being given to the Russian and Chinese teams/viewers in TI2 - it's obvious Valve hopes to take off in at least one, if not both, of those regions. The importance of "foreigners" is completely overrated and only stressed by people who hope to be able to make it in ESPORTS in the west...
But this also makes comparing numbers in foreign markets a bit meaningless and BW is kind of an example for that. It was/is huge in Korea and while that somewhat helped to keep a small community alive in the west (TL is testament to this), it didn't really fully translate into the west.
A game can succeed in one region and "fail" in others. Korea has proven that it is a viable market on its own to house a game as an esport. People throw a lot of numbers around about how huge Dota2 is in China, but China is huge in itself and this makes it hard to evaluate the relative importance of something when throwing around numbers. Not to say the numbers are not impressive, but I find it personally hard to understand how important the game in China really is.
With that being said, Lol is very different from SC/SC2 in one important aspect which is completely unrelated to the gameplay. It's based on microtransactions and from the looks of it, Dota2 is aiming for the same model. A larger player base will directly translate into a bigger revenue. The games are very similar and they are aiming for the same crowd. I know that they are very different in details, but when compared to SC2 for example they are virtually identical.
I fully expect this to get a bit ugly, as both Valve and Riot will want to bash the shit out of each other to fight over dominance in each and every market. And both sides will always claim, that they have the bigger numbers, the more important segement and so on...
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I like LoL much better as a game than I do DotA 2 due to the differences in game design, aesthetics choice and efforts to make the community well-behaved, so I just hid away all the DotA 2 content via the site coverage options. While I don't share the interest that the admins seem to have for the game, I'm very grateful that they added the site coverage options to streamline the user experience of those of us who are more interested in Starcraft 2 and other TL site content, and I wish them the best with their DotA 2 endeavors.
While I can't think of anything I can contribute right now to TL LoL, you raise a good point that it's up to us to make our sub-forum everything it can be (and maybe more than that). I'll give this some more thought.
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On August 31 2012 00:34 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 00:30 Deman wrote:
It's an interesting choice considering LoL is screaming out for a community driven site and Dota2 has many of them already running.
Congrats and good luck
Leigh "Deman" Smith I gotta be honest,as the LOL community is now,I wouldn't want TL to ever become the foothold for it.
Yeah I completly agree, it's the only forum where I can ask dumb question without being instantly flamed. LoL is a nice game, but its community is full of kids.
I just hope NeoIllusions doesn't exhaust himself for our pleasure, if I can help in anything I will do it considering the little time I can give.
On August 31 2012 02:14 TheKefka wrote:
But how is China even relevant to the growth of the scene....Can sponsors even advertise their product there,let alone place it?If Dota was such a huge thing in China and it was so easy to monetize it I'm pretty sure someone would have done it already.I don't see company's standing in line to support dota.
China has always been kinda of secluded from the rest of the e-sport world, in all games. SC1, WC3, Dota, even SC2, everytime China has its own little eco system.
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While I'm primarly a LoL player and I understand its popularity it doesn't change the fact that the professionalism, depth, history, features and maturity the competitive dota 2 scene/game has just isn't there yet for LoL.
The LoL scene doesn't deserve to be covered by THE most respected esport site on the planet. Thats how I feel right now.
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public service announcement
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On September 01 2012 00:25 nosliw wrote:
what is PSA?
Public Service Announcement
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On September 01 2012 00:26 Praetorial wrote:
public service announcement
You sure the S isn't for Sexual ? Or maybe Sexy.
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How is the Dota International 2 viewership? I think I see around 30k on own3d English stream and around 20K on Twitch.tv. So I would estimate all languages streams is around 70K at most.
That isn't even close to some mid-level LoL tourney. LoL can pull like 200K-300K easily.
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You are forgetting in-game stream client. I think in NA, and Europe the viewership for LOL is better. But once you throw Asia in the mix....... Right now I think they are probably sitting around 100k for the western viewers.
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On September 01 2012 10:52 Caphe wrote:
How is the Dota International 2 viewership? I think I see around 30k on own3d English stream and around 20K on Twitch.tv. So I would estimate all languages streams is around 70K at most.
That isn't even close to some mid-level LoL tourney. LoL can pull like 200K-300K easily.
You can also spectate in-game and listen to commentary from in-game options. So it's not a full figure.
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On September 01 2012 10:52 Caphe wrote:
How is the Dota International 2 viewership? I think I see around 30k on own3d English stream and around 20K on Twitch.tv. So I would estimate all languages streams is around 70K at most.
That isn't even close to some mid-level LoL tourney. LoL can pull like 200K-300K easily.
Nearly 90-120k average viewers in day1 and day2 of NA Regionals. A little over 800k unique viewers for day2 as well.
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On September 01 2012 10:56 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 10:52 Caphe wrote:
How is the Dota International 2 viewership? I think I see around 30k on own3d English stream and around 20K on Twitch.tv. So I would estimate all languages streams is around 70K at most.
That isn't even close to some mid-level LoL tourney. LoL can pull like 200K-300K easily. You can also spectate in-game and listen to commentary from in-game options. So it's not a full figure.
Oh, I see. But I don't think the viewers from Dota clients can double the 70K figure, why you want to fire a client just to watch a game? I'd watch it on own3d or twitch.tv as what I am doing right now since I want to see give Dota 2 another chance to impress me, past experiences were not that good.
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Well if we really want to compare E-dicks, its probably better for the international to finish and just let steam to tell us the figures.
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On September 01 2012 10:58 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 10:56 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On September 01 2012 10:52 Caphe wrote:
How is the Dota International 2 viewership? I think I see around 30k on own3d English stream and around 20K on Twitch.tv. So I would estimate all languages streams is around 70K at most.
That isn't even close to some mid-level LoL tourney. LoL can pull like 200K-300K easily. You can also spectate in-game and listen to commentary from in-game options. So it's not a full figure. Oh, I see. But I don't think the viewers from Dota clients can double the 70K figure, why you want to fire a client just to watch a game? I'd watch it on own3d or twitch.tv as what I am doing right now since I want to see give Dota 2 another chance to impress me, past experiences were not that good.
There were 69,659 people watching in-game CLG v M5 during group stages which was one of the most viewed games. And also, it's likely the semifinals and finals will have more viewers than group stage matches. Also, group stages matches were played concurrently so hard to say what the combined figure at any point in time was until Valve says so.
DotaTV is nice because you can spectate the game and control the camera yourself while having options to choose from different commentators for audio or disable commentary. You can also choose to set a camera lock to what a commentator is seeing if you're lazy.
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On September 01 2012 11:00 AUGcodon wrote:
Well if we really want to compare E-dicks, its probably better for the international to finish and just let steam to tell us the figures.
What? I am seriously trying to get into Dota 2 and see how good it is. Got a beta a few months ago but nothing seems special about Dota 2 after 20 games or so. I was playing LoL most of the time though.
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Ops, sorry. I just get kind of annoyed whenever people want to compare lol and dota view figure. Usually think there is an ulterior motive behind it.
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DotA has Invoker. Only reason I play that game.
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Don't see why dota 2 gets picked up now. It's not available to the wide public.
To me, it looks like a big company throwing money at a problem. Like Blizzard did with diablo 3 and behold the soulless abomination they spawned. Of course there's the established competitive community... but isn't that the DOTA 1 community?
incidentally, what happened to that dota lawsuit between blizzard and valve?
gl with the new section.
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Official Dota 2 blog says 'over 400,000 simultaneous viewers online and thousands of visitors at Benaroya Hall'
http://blog.dota2.com/2012/09/day-two-starts/
On September 01 2012 11:18 snow2.0 wrote:
Don't see why dota 2 gets picked up now. It's not available to the wide public.
To me, it looks like a big company throwing money at a problem.
isnt that what riot is doing with LoL. paid money to MLG, IEM and IPL to have LoL in their leagues and then also have a clause that forbids them from allowing any other moba game on their league.
On September 01 2012 11:18 snow2.0 wrote:
incidentally, what happened to that dota lawsuit between blizzard and valve?
valve and blizzard reached an 'agreement' where valve gets the 'dota' name and blizzard changes their sc2 mod name from 'blizzard dota' to 'blizzard allstars'
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Looking at the number of recent dota-related bans, I am glad we are not on the front page.
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I think the point shouldn't be that we begrudge DotA 2 for getting coverage, or say that we "deserve it more". We should compete for that honor on our own merits, and have to take it from anyone. It's not a zero sum game. Good for DotA and therefore good for us that TL has taken this step. If we get more constant content producers in this subforum, then our day will be soon.
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United States47024 Posts
Actually the content here is way better, lol. If it was based on quality of content, LoL probably deserved it more than DotA.
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I like how the LoL community seems much less spiteful towards the Dota guys than the other way around. And in the end, both games have profited from each other anyway.
Also, I even like the LoL community on this site better than the sc2 community. Thats probably because its smaller and therefore more "nice". So not much reason to want it to expand.
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Knowing what the average LoL community is, I don't really mind that TL is promoting Dota2 instead of LoL. We have a nice community here and more exposure would lead to more trolls joining, which we clearly don't need.
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the only concern i have with the desicion to promote dota2 instead of LOL is the missed opportunity to promote a game where you dont see an asian domination. dont get me wrong, in definitely not one of those people who is "less interested in koreans" or something like that, i enjoy the highest level of competiton no matter what nation. however, there are people who are that narrow minded, and the thing is, esports is still something thats in development phase in NA/EU, and i think it would have been better for the growth of western esports to promote a game where NA/EU dont just play a minor role.
to establish esports teams who are able to attract sponsors and pay their players reasonably, you have to be successful in some why. but thats not gonna happen if you promote a game with existing premium asian teams dominating this game for years. look what riot's doing, they gonna pay salaries for players in the upcoming season. A VIDEO GAME DEVELOPER PAYING SALARIES FOR PROGAMERS. just to path the way for western esports.
i don't think that TL's decision to add dota2 will kill LOL or anything like that, TL is not significant enough, and i think there can be 2 MOBAs coexiting, especially 2 so different MOBAs (i play both), but IF i'm wrong, IF one of those games will fade away, and IF it's LOL, then it will be a lot harder and will take a lot longer to establish an esports infrastuctur like in asia.
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On September 02 2012 20:14 tztztz wrote:
the only concern i have with the desicion to promote dota2 instead of LOL is the missed opportunity to promote a game where you dont see an asian domination. dont get me wrong, in definitely not one of those people who is "less interested in koreans" or something like that, i enjoy the highest level of competiton no matter what nation. however, there are people who are that narrow minded, and the thing is, esports is still something thats in development phase in NA/EU, and i think it would have been better for the growth of western esports to promote a game where NA/EU dont just play a minor role.
Except thats not really true. Asians are starting to dominate LoL already despite a much shorter time on the game. Look at Blaze at the MLG Arena, Look at teams going to OGN. Everyone but the very top (the stephanos for SC2 people) is already losing to the Koreans and its only going to get worse.
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On August 31 2012 18:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 12:53 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 04:12 Azarkon wrote:On August 31 2012 03:12 1ntrigue wrote:On August 31 2012 02:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
China and SEA alone skews any numbers heavily in DotA's favor, it's not even fair, lol. ;< You're underestimating the prevalence of LoL in China. LoL is much more popular than DotA in all of the major Chinese cities nowadays in terms of active players. In terms of viewership, LoL is catching up pretty fast but it has stalled a bit because of the lack of top Chinese teams nowadays to challenge the current crop of top Korean teams. It has little to do with China vs. Korea. Korea is a recent comer in LoL and is far from being the mecca of LoL. LoL had been popular in China for years before Korea came into the scene, but the eSports side of it has never taken off. Chinese teams also do not play Korean teams frequently - the Koreans don't send their teams out a lot, and the last time a Chinese team was in a tournament, they were roflstomped by Western teams. Thinking that Korea's rather light presence on the LoL scene is the cause for LoL eSports not taking off in China is delusional. The problem is that LoL eSports just isn't that popular in China. A lot of this is due to the established Dota eSports tradition - just about every popular 'MOBA' player in China is in Dota rather than LoL. There is Dota elitism in China, too, from what I've heard. That was quite an aggressive response. LoL has only really started to take off in China at the start of this year and the viewership has been steadily growing. However, the lack of success of Chinese teams in international events, especially the failure of WE to perform on the big stage and the inconsistency of iG, actually is one of the biggest reasons why LoL viewership has stalled a bit recently. Sure, it is not to do with China vs Korea as a direct confrontation. What I actually meant with my Korean reference is that there is a culture of winning or being the best in China that is so ingrained that if it seems that Chinese LoL is not up there with the best in the world (i.e. currently the Koreans), then their interest in it is diminished greatly. What you claimed about LoL and DotA isn't even accurate. Of course there is DotA elitism but if you were actually in China and interacting with the Chinese MOBA community right now, then you would know that the majority of DotA casual players have already moved on to LoL, and it takes casual fans to make an industry. Further, esports in China in general is not that big a thing and is overhyped by the international DotA community. Most people would rather spend their time playing the game, be it DotA or LoL, than watch other people play it, mostly because time is of such shortage to anyone who is not a uni student with a rich family background in China. Anyway, I won't post more about this here because I've gone way off-topic now. I really hope TL LoL can become a thing in a year or so with the advent of S4 because the international esports community really needs it. The vast majority of casual gamers do not watch eSports. You say this yourself. So, when talking about eSports, we are talking about a segment of society that isn't quite 'casual' in the way that the rest of it is. LoL's market penetration in China is fairly deep and the player population is large, but its eSports scene has not taken off. You're correct to say that LoL's problems in China have to do with the lack of world class Chinese teams, but you haven't asked why that is. In this you've ignored the second half of my comment - which is that Dota elitism prevents players from joining the game, not viewers. Chinese Dota players, who are the bread and butter of their competitive MOBA scene, are not switching to LoL because they consider it an inferior game to Dota and Dota 2. Players passionate enough and capable of becoming eSports stars are few and far in between. Casual gamers are never going to rise to the occasion, so whether there's millions / tens of millions of casual gamers matter little. What matters is the segment of players skilled enough and passionate enough that they're willing to go pro. This community has its own subculture, and this subculture, in China, is defined by a Dota tradition. When you have the vast majority of your present MOBA pro players saying that they're not switching to LoL because it's a low skill game, and that they're going to go to Dota 2 instead, there is a bandwagon effect on the rest of the pro gaming capable community. There is a feeling among top Chinese MOBA players that those who are not able to cut it in Dota, go play LoL. That is one cause for why LoL eSports has not become huge in China - because of the lack of star players, which leads to the lack of great teams. Speaking for myself only, Dota is a far better watching experience than LoL. But that is subjective. What is not subjective is that there's a difference between a popular game and a popular eSports. WoW is an immensely popular game, but WoW Arena is a failure of an eSport. Throwing money into tournaments won't get you where you want to be, not by itself. Riot has to understand that and not just sniffle at the inflated viewer counts they're able to get.
Thist post is about LoL coverage in TL in regard to the new dota 2 promotion, it's not one of all the other thread where you can come and try to give us an "educated" opinion on why lol will not rise as an e-sport. Seriously, you are comparing things that doesn't mean much.
China has always been a place of the world with its own rules regarding gaming in general. SC1's chinese scene was completly secluded, WC3 chinese scene was really big, but only appeared near the end of WC3's life. The same for SC2, where almost no players got out of China. There are still thousands of people playing dota 1 in china - a game so old I felt like I have acne all over again. So LoL not taking off in China doesn't mean at all that some Chinese teams will not rise, especially when LoL is throwing millions in their face.
You cannot really explain the dynamic of the Chinese scene, nor can you explain the failure of WoW Arena, with such cheap details, like the "appearance" of skilled players - like there exist some players that start skilled and not casual. For exemple, how can you not explain WoW Arena's failure if you don't take into consideration that almost everything was balanced for PVE, hence making some class completly useless in PvP. Not to mention how old the game was when Arena appeared.
Obviously, only time will tell what game will rise as an "e-sport" and what will not, but trying to rationalise what might happen considering the few facts you believe to be true is just a silly and a boring discussion.
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On September 02 2012 20:37 WhiteDog wrote:
You cannot really explain the dynamic of the Chinese scene, nor can you explain the failure of WoW Arena, with such cheap details, like the "appearance" of skilled players - like there exist some players that start skilled and not casual. For exemple, how can you not explain WoW Arena's failure if you don't take into consideration that almost everything was balanced for PVE, hence making some class completly useless in PvP. Not to mention how old the game was when Arena appeared.
I bit offtopic but WoW failed as an esport because blizz didnt balance for it on 1 hand and the utter lack of tournaments on the other. 2 tournaments per year just isnt enough to keep a scene going :p
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On September 02 2012 13:44 dooshplayer wrote:Official Dota 2 blog says 'over 400,000 simultaneous viewers online and thousands of visitors at Benaroya Hall' http://blog.dota2.com/2012/09/day-two-starts/Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 11:18 snow2.0 wrote:
Don't see why dota 2 gets picked up now. It's not available to the wide public.
To me, it looks like a big company throwing money at a problem. isnt that what riot is doing with LoL. paid money to MLG, IEM and IPL to have LoL in their leagues and then also have a clause that forbids them from allowing any other moba game on their league.Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 11:18 snow2.0 wrote:
incidentally, what happened to that dota lawsuit between blizzard and valve?
valve and blizzard reached an 'agreement' where valve gets the 'dota' name and blizzard changes their sc2 mod name from 'blizzard dota' to 'blizzard allstars'
Sounds good to me
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Side question:
I always hear the Avid DotA Defense Squad saying how much more fast-paced DotA is, and how oh-so-many plays, ganks and kills happen all the time.
I watched a bit of the International yesterday after NA regionals ended. (iG vs NaVi g3, then it was ovur)
And the killscore was 1-1 until 15+ minutes. The game was compareable to your average LoL games in length, amount of action, etc. Actually, quite a bit more boring to me, but I don't know 80% of the skill(animations), too long since I played dota(1), so that might have something to do with it.
What I would like to know: Was that game representative of most games (was it your average straight-up pro-game)?
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On September 02 2012 20:54 Dandel Ion wrote:
Side question:
I always hear the Avid DotA Defense Squad saying how much more fast-paced DotA is, and how oh-so-many plays, ganks and kills happen all the time.
I watched a bit of the International yesterday after NA regionals ended. (iG vs NaVi g3, then it was ovur)
And the killscore was 1-1 until 15+ minutes. The game was compareable to your average LoL games in length, amount of action, etc. Actually, quite a bit more boring to me, but I don't know 80% of the skill(animations), too long since I played dota(1), so that might have something to do with it.
What I would like to know: Was that game representative of most games (was it your average straight-up pro-game)?
Normaly people die a lot more then that.
Lanes are longer, stuns are longer and no Flash means ganking lanes is a lot easier.
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The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant.
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On September 02 2012 21:00 Highwayman wrote:
The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant.
Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online.
League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics.
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It'll be interesting to see if the dota coverage can compete with the after event writeup for lol. From my experience the lol writups have been as good as the sc2 writups. I'm sure that the crew will have something great for the post pax article.
I can't remember the exact numbers but they released them about the same time they passed wow on worldwide amount of players.
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On September 02 2012 21:05 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 21:00 Highwayman wrote:
The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant. Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online. League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics.
a game which has been f2p since 2009 has more players than ggame which is still in closed beta?
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On September 03 2012 00:46 dooshplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 21:05 arb wrote:On September 02 2012 21:00 Highwayman wrote:
The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant. Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online. League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics. a game which has been f2p since 2009 has more players than ggame which is still in closed beta?
Funny enough, the main english stream for Dota2 has 60k viewers right now, maybe peak at 70k, if that. LoL gets twice that on a regionals event, not a even as "big" as the international.
also the place where they are holding the finals, it isn't even full capacity, and with a location like seattle, it should be full.
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On September 03 2012 02:58 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:46 dooshplayer wrote:On September 02 2012 21:05 arb wrote:On September 02 2012 21:00 Highwayman wrote:
The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant. Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online. League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics. a game which has been f2p since 2009 has more players than ggame which is still in closed beta? Funny enough, the main english stream for Dota2 has 60k viewers right now, maybe peak at 70k, if that. LoL gets twice that on a regionals event, not a even as "big" as the international. also the place where they are holding the finals, it isn't even full capacity, and with a location like seattle, it should be full.
I'd wait for Valve to release numbers of their own before trying to make any comparisons. The reason for this is that in addition to the English stream, there's also the Russian and Chinese streams. As well, for the English and Russian streams, they're running on both own3d and twitch at the same time. There's also plenty of people watching through the in-game client.
Also right now, it's only 11:30 am in Seattle, so of course the venue isn't going to be completely full, haha.
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On September 01 2012 11:01 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 10:58 Caphe wrote:On September 01 2012 10:56 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On September 01 2012 10:52 Caphe wrote:
How is the Dota International 2 viewership? I think I see around 30k on own3d English stream and around 20K on Twitch.tv. So I would estimate all languages streams is around 70K at most.
That isn't even close to some mid-level LoL tourney. LoL can pull like 200K-300K easily. You can also spectate in-game and listen to commentary from in-game options. So it's not a full figure. Oh, I see. But I don't think the viewers from Dota clients can double the 70K figure, why you want to fire a client just to watch a game? I'd watch it on own3d or twitch.tv as what I am doing right now since I want to see give Dota 2 another chance to impress me, past experiences were not that good. There were 69,659 people watching in-game CLG v M5 during group stages which was one of the most viewed games. And also, it's likely the semifinals and finals will have more viewers than group stage matches. Also, group stages matches were played concurrently so hard to say what the combined figure at any point in time was until Valve says so. DotaTV is nice because you can spectate the game and control the camera yourself while having options to choose from different commentators for audio or disable commentary. You can also choose to set a camera lock to what a commentator is seeing if you're lazy.
I think I'm not exagerating when I say that Valve is setting the bar to a new level in terms of professionalism on all levels with this tournament. Up to 16 hours of commentating in all major languages, replays you can watch while selecting the commentary you want, streams showing the team booths and the crowd, 10 minutes MAX in between team switches and games, a "analyst" desk which entertains people during down times, no commercials - it just all adds up to something neither Riot, nor Blizzard nor anyone else has achieved so far.
For the sake of League I REALLY, REALLY hope that Riots learns from Valve when it comes to things like this. They're just lots of steps ahead with their organisation and how they present themselves at the moment.
However, I gotta agree with Yango; - the quality and general attitude in this subforum are still #1. It's also much more developed than the DotA 2 forum in terms of strategic content and such. <3
Edit: @numbers: The numbers Valve released so far are ONLY ingame spectators. It's hard to guess because you don't know how many people watch stream and ingame at the same time (I LOVE to do this for example) but 200k at prime time total is probably not too far off. Wait for the next Na'Vi game to get a good estimate. =P
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On September 03 2012 02:58 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 00:46 dooshplayer wrote:On September 02 2012 21:05 arb wrote:On September 02 2012 21:00 Highwayman wrote:
The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant. Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online. League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics. a game which has been f2p since 2009 has more players than ggame which is still in closed beta? Funny enough, the main english stream for Dota2 has 60k viewers right now, maybe peak at 70k, if that. LoL gets twice that on a regionals event, not a even as "big" as the international. also the place where they are holding the finals, it isn't even full capacity, and with a location like seattle, it should be full.
There's another 53k watching from the ingame client, 30k on the russian streams... and i don't even know if there's more than twitch and own3d streaming it.
Viewer numbers certainly aren't the issue for dota.
Its a high number for a streamed event in any case, probably many people tuning in to LoL regionals and the international at the same time...
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On September 03 2012 04:28 snow2.0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 02:58 masterbreti wrote:On September 03 2012 00:46 dooshplayer wrote:On September 02 2012 21:05 arb wrote:On September 02 2012 21:00 Highwayman wrote:
The only thing I find interesting about it is that it seems like a missed opportunity for TL, which tells me there's more going on with that decision than simply popularity. Other than that it's pretty insignificant. Last time i logged onto Dota there was only like 30k people online. League has what millions a day or something? I know Riot released figures a really longtime ago, but I cant remember specifics. a game which has been f2p since 2009 has more players than ggame which is still in closed beta? Funny enough, the main english stream for Dota2 has 60k viewers right now, maybe peak at 70k, if that. LoL gets twice that on a regionals event, not a even as "big" as the international. also the place where they are holding the finals, it isn't even full capacity, and with a location like seattle, it should be full. There's another 53k watching from the ingame client, 30k on the russian streams... and i don't even know if there's more than twitch and own3d streaming it. Viewer numbers certainly aren't the issue for dota. Its a high number for a streamed event in any case, probably many people tuning in to LoL regionals and the international at the same time...
143k people watching the LoL regionals right now, that doesn't include the 2 restreams, one on twich is getting 2-3k viewers, and the other one on daum has 4-5k, so about 150k people watching a regionals event.
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260k watching TI2 in game only right now. not including any streams
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On September 03 2012 06:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
260k watching TI2 in game only right now. not including any streams
so about 300k including streams and everything for the biggest DOTA2 tournament of the year. while LoL gets 200k (one stream as well, not including restreams) for a regional tournament.
But I'm not going to argue about it further about it.
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according to valve it was over 500k people watching live.
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for the largest event of the year and for 1.6mil I really hope they can pull 500k for it. pax lol is hitting probably hitting 200kish with restreamers and shit and thats just the north american crowd. how crazy is the s2 champs going to be with all of asia being pulled in as well?
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On September 03 2012 08:02 Sermokala wrote:
for the largest event of the year and for 1.6mil I really hope they can pull 500k for it. pax lol is hitting probably hitting 200kish with restreamers and shit and thats just the north american crowd. how crazy is the s2 champs going to be with all of asia being pulled in as well?
Are we talking total or concurrent?
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On September 03 2012 08:50 Unentschieden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 08:02 Sermokala wrote:
for the largest event of the year and for 1.6mil I really hope they can pull 500k for it. pax lol is hitting probably hitting 200kish with restreamers and shit and thats just the north american crowd. how crazy is the s2 champs going to be with all of asia being pulled in as well? Are we talking total or concurrent?
dota numbers are concurrent afaik. i know it's 260k+ in game concurrent + 50k concurrent english stream 1 30k english stream 2 concurrent, russia/chinese 3 streams i don't know. and restreams in china/russia likely as well because a lot of commentators still in those countries. + terrible timezone issues for those areas as well.
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They said on stream that they hit 500k total from everything. People are also saying its 250k china 250k rest of the world or so.
It'll be interesting to see the numbers for s2 lol. If they can pull numbers from china in any serious way things are going to get out of control I think fast on the numbers front.
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On September 03 2012 09:33 Sermokala wrote:
They said on stream that they hit 500k total from everything. People are also saying its 250k china 250k rest of the world or so.
It'll be interesting to see the numbers for s2 lol. If they can pull numbers from china in any serious way things are going to get out of control I think fast on the numbers front.
DOTA 2 isn't actually with PAX though right? If what I think is true, sc2 numbers won't change as there is no integration from DOTA 2 to the sc2 tournaments.
And I am not surprised at the numbers for the TI2, only a couple of years ago the projected Chinese population alone was 20 million.
Edit: I assumed you meant sc2 instead, I have no clue what s2 is if you meant to use it so correct me if I am wrong.
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i believe he means Season 2 finals for LoL.
Don't see how important viewer numbers are as long as they stay within reasonable distances. We're sort of peaking for the amount of people actually interested in watching streamed esports, and those interested in mobas probably watch everything available.
Not everyone hates on other games.
The only thing i don't like about dota2 is not getting a key after signing up for the steam invite stuff months ago.
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Strange, i'm only seeing 41k for alternate stream and 31k for The international stream.
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On September 02 2012 18:42 Redox wrote:
I like how the LoL community seems much less spiteful towards the Dota guys than the other way around. And in the end, both games have profited from each other anyway.
Also, I even like the LoL community on this site better than the sc2 community. Thats probably because its smaller and therefore more "nice". So not much reason to want it to expand.
Dota benefited from lol? No.
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On September 03 2012 07:11 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 06:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
260k watching TI2 in game only right now. not including any streams so about 300k including streams and everything for the biggest DOTA2 tournament of the year. while LoL gets 200k (one stream as well, not including restreams) for a regional tournament. But I'm not going to argue about it further about it.
whats there to argue about? TL said in the announcement its not a popularity thing, and the lol scene has no money in it.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On September 03 2012 11:41 Cubu wrote:Strange, i'm only seeing 41k for alternate stream and 31k for The international stream.
They also have people watching from their spectator client as well as the Chinese/Russian streams. The 500k was a number they showed during the game and there's no reason not to believe them.
On September 03 2012 11:46 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 18:42 Redox wrote:
I like how the LoL community seems much less spiteful towards the Dota guys than the other way around. And in the end, both games have profited from each other anyway.
Also, I even like the LoL community on this site better than the sc2 community. Thats probably because its smaller and therefore more "nice". So not much reason to want it to expand. Dota benefited from lol? No.
They may not have benefited directly, but Riot's presence is definitely helpful for Valve. A lot of people who didn't know about the MOBA/ARTS genre got into LoL and now this exposure will be extended to Dota 2. Also, competition between 2 similar games will keep the developers honest and cut corners - this means the end product will always be improving and benefit the company's image. I'm sure if there's another competitive RTS that can compete with SC2, Blizzard won't be so slow to improve the game to what the community expects them to have right from the beginning.
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On September 03 2012 12:05 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 11:41 Cubu wrote:Strange, i'm only seeing 41k for alternate stream and 31k for The international stream. They also have people watching from their spectator client as well as the Chinese/Russian streams. The 500k was a number they showed during the game and there's no reason not to believe them. Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 11:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 02 2012 18:42 Redox wrote:
I like how the LoL community seems much less spiteful towards the Dota guys than the other way around. And in the end, both games have profited from each other anyway.
Also, I even like the LoL community on this site better than the sc2 community. Thats probably because its smaller and therefore more "nice". So not much reason to want it to expand. Dota benefited from lol? No. They may not have benefited directly, but Riot's presence is definitely helpful for Valve. A lot of people who didn't know about the MOBA/ARTS genre got into LoL and now this exposure will be extended to Dota 2. Also, competition between 2 similar games will keep the developers honest and cut corners - this means the end product will always be improving and benefit the company's image. I'm sure if there's another competitive RTS that can compete with SC2, Blizzard won't be so slow to improve the game to what the community expects them to have right from the beginning.
That's like saying SC helped the red alert series because they brought more people into RTS.
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On September 03 2012 13:00 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 12:05 JBright wrote:On September 03 2012 11:41 Cubu wrote:Strange, i'm only seeing 41k for alternate stream and 31k for The international stream. They also have people watching from their spectator client as well as the Chinese/Russian streams. The 500k was a number they showed during the game and there's no reason not to believe them. On September 03 2012 11:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 02 2012 18:42 Redox wrote:
I like how the LoL community seems much less spiteful towards the Dota guys than the other way around. And in the end, both games have profited from each other anyway.
Also, I even like the LoL community on this site better than the sc2 community. Thats probably because its smaller and therefore more "nice". So not much reason to want it to expand. Dota benefited from lol? No. They may not have benefited directly, but Riot's presence is definitely helpful for Valve. A lot of people who didn't know about the MOBA/ARTS genre got into LoL and now this exposure will be extended to Dota 2. Also, competition between 2 similar games will keep the developers honest and cut corners - this means the end product will always be improving and benefit the company's image. I'm sure if there's another competitive RTS that can compete with SC2, Blizzard won't be so slow to improve the game to what the community expects them to have right from the beginning. That's like saying SC helped the red alert series because they brought more people into RTS.
but.. it .. probably.. did. you don't have to look hard at all to see people that played lol until they found dota and enjoyed it more. scintilia wrote a really good post introducing people to dota 2 that played lol and its gotten a ton of hits. at the very least he started in lol and went to dota if you need any one at all to prove you wrong.
I don't get why you're so hostile tword lol in the lol sub forum. You really had to chose to go to the lol subforum and post in a thread about lol to get where you are now. dota has its own whole section now and you have ti2 to go watch instead of coming in and trying to cause problems.
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On September 02 2012 14:01 Takkara wrote:
I think the point shouldn't be that we begrudge DotA 2 for getting coverage, or say that we "deserve it more". We should compete for that honor on our own merits, and have to take it from anyone. It's not a zero sum game. Good for DotA and therefore good for us that TL has taken this step. If we get more constant content producers in this subforum, then our day will be soon.
That's all well and good, but how many people actually believe this was an objective decision based solely on the merits? The writing was on the wall many many months ago.
It's not a case of "well we'll just compete for it and eventually get it" -- that will never happen. It would be one thing if administrators had simply came out and said "we prefer DotA 2 and have chosen to sponsor it," rather than trying to convince themselves (and us) otherwise. That I simply cannot respect.
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the only ones that'll know of their decision on this is the people that were in the discussion. everything that they're gona announce has to be so heavily pr you really shouldn't try to read anything from it. Its not like they're actually saying stuff other then what is best for them to say about it.
Lets just instead try be positive and enjoy everything we get to have while we have it.
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On September 03 2012 14:01 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 14:01 Takkara wrote:
I think the point shouldn't be that we begrudge DotA 2 for getting coverage, or say that we "deserve it more". We should compete for that honor on our own merits, and have to take it from anyone. It's not a zero sum game. Good for DotA and therefore good for us that TL has taken this step. If we get more constant content producers in this subforum, then our day will be soon. That's all well and good, but how many people actually believe this was an objective decision based solely on the merits? The writing was on the wall many many months ago. It's not a case of "well we'll just compete for it and eventually get it" -- that will never happen. It would be one thing if administrators had simply came out and said "we prefer DotA 2 and have chosen to sponsor it," rather than trying to convince themselves (and us) otherwise. That I simply cannot respect.
Also, Why not both?
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On August 31 2012 01:39 Zhiroo wrote:
I don't even care about TL SC2 part anymore, too many elitist jerks and it's the same in DotA2. I stick around for TL LoL since you can't find a better community for LoL in 7 galaxies.
True that about not finding a better LoL community anywhere else. I just wish the chat channel for TL in LoL was a little more active and talkative in North America.
I really think TL should have done both LoL and DotA 2 at the same time. TL is a really good community overall, and I was hoping LoL could get a little more love here.
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On September 03 2012 15:07 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:39 Zhiroo wrote:
I don't even care about TL SC2 part anymore, too many elitist jerks and it's the same in DotA2. I stick around for TL LoL since you can't find a better community for LoL in 7 galaxies. True that about not finding a better LoL community anywhere else. I just wish the chat channel for TL in LoL was a little more active and talkative in North America. I really think TL should have done both LoL and DotA 2 at the same time. TL is a really good community overall, and I was hoping LoL could get a little more love here.
It used to be, but it seems as though LiquidPractice has slowly fallen victim to the same pox that afflicted LiquidParty and Spudparty.
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Why do you americans chew through channels like that? =(
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On September 03 2012 15:10 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 15:07 NEOtheONE wrote:On August 31 2012 01:39 Zhiroo wrote:
I don't even care about TL SC2 part anymore, too many elitist jerks and it's the same in DotA2. I stick around for TL LoL since you can't find a better community for LoL in 7 galaxies. True that about not finding a better LoL community anywhere else. I just wish the chat channel for TL in LoL was a little more active and talkative in North America. I really think TL should have done both LoL and DotA 2 at the same time. TL is a really good community overall, and I was hoping LoL could get a little more love here. It used to be, but it seems as though LiquidPractice has slowly fallen victim to the same pox that afflicted LiquidParty and Spudparty.
just make a new channel every time it happens. people who really wanna know what happened will find the new one. people who dont care and just afk will be in old one. ezpz
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United States47024 Posts
I vote we call the new channel SpudPractice.
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Er, LiquidParty had hundreds of 1k elo ragers who didn't even know what TL was.
SpudParty seemed to actually have TLers in it but most of the main group quit LoL, got banned 5 times from TL, etc >_>
What exactly happened with LiquidPractice out of these 2 things? o.o
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On September 03 2012 15:07 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2012 01:39 Zhiroo wrote:
I don't even care about TL SC2 part anymore, too many elitist jerks and it's the same in DotA2. I stick around for TL LoL since you can't find a better community for LoL in 7 galaxies. True that about not finding a better LoL community anywhere else. I just wish the chat channel for TL in LoL was a little more active and talkative in North America. I really think TL should have done both LoL and DotA 2 at the same time. TL is a really good community overall, and I was hoping LoL could get a little more love here.
They do not really have the ability to do so and have an active coverage. TL has a finite amount of staffers/writers on hand which limits what they can do. Even now, they do not even have dedicated writers for OSL (which many complained about). They are in the process of thinning the herd so they will have someone/s to do it.
Which leads to why they are not able to do LoL as well. The staffers are part of DotA 2 already, following it, and probably playing it as well. It allows for them to continue to do what they currently do, and add on the DotA 2 coverage. As mentioned elsewhere; they do not have the staffers with the capacity to do LoL its deserving coverage.
Do keep in mind, the TL staff did hint to the possibility of it still happening. So, I realize there are many that are not keen on it being DotA 2 and not LoL (or both), just give it time. DotA has been around for a very long time (although DotA 2 is new), it is only now really becoming much larger here and its growth can only better the E-sport community as a whole with setting precedents, mechanics, etc. Anyway, I am probably partially bias so I wont deny it, but just wanting to voice my opinion.
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I hope TL starts a new youtube channel for their Dota content. I'm getting flooded with video interviews from their tournament that I really don't care about. They don't even have Hotbid.
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On September 03 2012 07:11 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 06:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
260k watching TI2 in game only right now. not including any streams so about 300k including streams and everything for the biggest DOTA2 tournament of the year. while LoL gets 200k (one stream as well, not including restreams) for a regional tournament. But I'm not going to argue about it further about it.
Numbers were 500K+ for an unfinished game, not yet released to the general public, and advertised a fraction of the amount LoL is. I think that speaks for itself.
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On September 03 2012 15:43 BlackPaladin wrote:
Er, LiquidParty had hundreds of 1k elo ragers who didn't even know what TL was.
SpudParty seemed to actually have TLers in it but most of the main group quit LoL, got banned 5 times from TL, etc >_>
What exactly happened with LiquidPractice out of these 2 things? o.o
Liquidpractice was active all summer but i think as people went back to school/university/work it kinda dwindled back into AFK mode
also the lack of people hosting games and spamming invites to everyone might have something to do with it
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jyMAA.gif)
