EPT[Patch 1.0.0.146: Late August] General Discussion - Page 131
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Celial
2602 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On September 10 2012 22:33 Celial wrote: I just checked out BAF AT THE GAME on EU-W, Shaco main at 2600 ELO. He plays AP Shaco. How does that work? Stack boxes, be an asshole. The biggest part of playing Shaco at all - be it AD, AP, hybrid, or AS - is to realize that your champion is a complete dick and play accordingly. | ||
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Arekan
United States248 Posts
On September 10 2012 22:33 Celial wrote: I just checked out BAF AT THE GAME on EU-W, Shaco main at 2600 ELO. He plays AP Shaco. How does that work? Shaco's AP ratios on his abilities are actually very good. His boxes have up to 1.6 AP and his E and ult are 1.0 (1.2 for his E if you are behind them. With an 8 second CD on his E, spamming that as harass I can see being pretty strong. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 10 2012 17:47 TheKefka wrote: Buy HP/5 quints,they are expensive as fuck but soooo good against lanes that will constantly harass you. Also flat health is king for aggressive supports.I don't really like gp/10 runes,stick it on a soraka or something. If you wanna go man mode with taric/leona/nunu buy flat health. On September 10 2012 19:19 spinesheath wrote: What champion would you use MP5 runes on these days? I can't imagine anyone who'd want these. Some mana-hungry supports like Sona can make good use of MP5 runes, perhaps... but they aren't 100% necessary. I would add: Armor MARKS for your supports Flat MR Glyphs for nearly all non-aggro mid lanes (anytime you're going to be focused on farming rather than killing the other mid lane), or for top lanes vs. AP/magic damage opponents like Rumble or Shen. It takes so long enough for scaling MR Glyphs to break even, if theres any potential you die to magic damage before level 9 (especially vs. APs who have a scary level 6 ult) then Flat Glyphs will be substantially better. Even if the threat isn't dying, but just eating a lot of magic damage harass (Shen's vorpal blades/ki strikes) early in the game, Flat glyphs go a long way. HP5 quints I only use in a few situations... I wouldn't prioritize them. Armor quints and MR quints are overall more useful than HP5 quints - I only run HP5 quints when I'm laning against heavy mixed damage harass, like Kennen (harasses with autos + spells) or true damage harass like Olaf. I prefer GP10 quints over flat health on supports because I prefer only 1 GP10 item and I don't want to get frozen out of buying wards if no kills happen. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23395 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 10 2012 22:59 Slayer91 wrote: sona needs tank runes not mp5, her weakness is getting jumped on your harass is already godly If there's little magic damage in the opposing lane - or little damage at all (example: Sona vs Soraka + whatever AD carries, or Janna + AD carry who is not particularly high-aggro early) then you can often run flat MP5 blues or yellows - sacrificing some tankiness to potentially outharass/outlast. You're not as worried about exploding instantly to a Janna or Soraka lane the way you are vs. a Taric lane, and when you're vs. a non-healing support, you really don't have to worry about not outsustaining, you only have to worry about an allin against you. Remember, you're running this with armor reds, so its not like you get 0 armor from your runes. If you're going with MPen runes, it can be more risky to run regen yellows [and getting 0 armor] | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23395 Posts
like mp5 runes is what 1 bonus spell a minute is it really worth sacrificing flat mrs or armours. You still are going to get hit by the enemy AD when you go in to harass actually so basically there's no situation where mp5 is better o.O | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Not only that, but getting traded back when you go to Q/PC someone isn't a big deal since you're going to heal it off. Viewing it as "1 spell per minute" is a rather poor way of analyzing mana regen. By that logic, you can only cast a few spells per minute anyway (~10 MP5 at level 6, +3MP5 from masteries... ~3 spells per minute. Increasing that to 4 spells per minute is actually a pretty huge change in your throughput.) | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
And Krepo sona:Armor+ 12.7 Health+ 78 Magic Resist+ 12.1Magic Pen.+ 8.5 I cite them because their rune page for sona strictly says SONA lol. | ||
Flakes
United States3125 Posts
On September 10 2012 23:13 Slayer91 wrote: If I'm vs janna or soraka you just zone them and you still want tank runes incase you get ganked like mp5 runes is what 1 bonus spell a minute is it really worth sacrificing flat mrs or armours. You still are going to get hit by the enemy AD when you go in to harass actually so basically there's no situation where mp5 is better o.O The thing is, you want a certain amount of mana regen on supports, but other than philo-->shurelya's and maybe shoul shroud, you don't necessarily want to itemize for it. On the other hand, supports are often already building tanky in the form of aegis, shurelya's, locket, HoG/randuins, choice of boots, etc. The runes are used to have "just enough" mana regen to hit your comfort level, not as a result of "mp5 > armor" | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
Magic pen reds are really good and considering ad's go flat mr they are the best for that slot and pretty much the only way you can get that stat,armor reds are really inefficient,hell even mr reds are inefficient because of the nerfs.Yellows are for armor,blue flat mr and quints are either flat health or gold.As far as I can tell eu prefers flat health.Chauster and Xspecial run gold runes on almost anything. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 10 2012 16:41 Sufficiency wrote: I don't know, 10ad extra per attack doesn't seem all that amazing either. Probably need to do some math to figure out conclusively which is better. The math is easy. 25.5% AS versus 15.5 AD. For the sake of simplicity we'll assume you have the AS and AD masteries from the Offense tree, but nothing else that might affect our calculations. 0.658 [Shyvana's Base Attack Speed] * 0.255 [Attack Speed Bonus from Runes] * 60.9 [Shyvana's AD] = 10.22 [Auto-Attack DPS increase] 0.658 * 0.255 * 0.5 [Q Cooldown Reduction per Auto] * 109.62 [Q Damage @Rank 1] / 10 [Q Cooldown @Rank 1] = 0.920 [Q DPS increase] Total DPS increase: 11.14 DPS 0.658 * 15.5 [Bonus AD from Runes] = 10.2 [Auto-Attack DPS increase] 15.5 * 1.8 / (10 / (1 + 0.658 * 0.5)) = 3.7 [Q DPS increase] 15.5 * 0.2 * 7 [Max W Duration] / 12 [W Cooldown @Rank 1] = 1.81 [W DPS increase] Total DPS increase: 15.71 DPS AD is the clear winner here. It's also very important to note that AD's damage is front loaded. Whether or not you have AS the small camps will generally only last as long as W's duration and 1-2 Qs anyway. With AD W does 21.7 more total damage in an AoE, and Q does 27.9 more damage per use. Basically, early jungling is easier with AD, and when you gank your damage will be higher. On September 10 2012 16:43 Celial wrote: I thought you want AS on Shyvana for many reasons: Generally higher DPS Faster stacking of W-duration (hit people twice in lane, run behind them forever) Faster resets of Q (better objective control and - acccording to TOO - almost doubling burst dps in late with short cd (think Q auto auto Q auto auto Q auto auto Q etc)) Faster reset of R I still build Wits End on Shyvana from time to time, and always feel so much more powerful with it than with anything else. GIANT dps increase, and I feel as if my ult is always up. But thats just me and totally subjective. I can't attest to the first point, but the second point in that list is clearly wrong. Auto->Q immediately stacks W's duration to 6 out of 7 possible seconds. Just as with clearing the jungle you don't need any attack speed to stack W's duration. Attack speed is a good stat on Shyvana, it's just not a compelling stat to rune for when jungling. Jungle rune pages are almost always about maximizing clear efficiency and safety or gank efficacy. For Shyvana AD simultaneously makes her clears faster and her ganks stronger, so it's the obvious way to go. | ||
AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On September 10 2012 23:53 TheKefka wrote: Ofc I don't know anyone that runs armor reds..... Magic pen reds are really good and considering ad's go flat mr they are the best for that slot and pretty much the only way you can get that stat.Yellows are for armor,blue flat mr and quints are either flat health or gold.As far as I can tell eu prefers flat health.Chauster and Xspecial run gold runes on almost anything. I've found that armor reds are fun just because no one expects you to take as little damage as you do so you can just ignore all the AD's harass. Especially as someone like Leona, you just ignore attacks and zone all day. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 10 2012 23:53 TheKefka wrote: Ofc I don't know anyone that runs armor reds..... Magic pen reds are really good and considering ad's go flat mr they are the best for that slot.Yellows are for armor,blue flat mr and quints are either flat health or gold.As far as I can tell eu prefers flat health.Chauster and Xspecial run gold runes on almost anything. What? Armor reds are pretty standard for supports. They are pretty reasonable for efficiency at 0.9 armor per rune (8 armor to fill with) Any 21 (ingame - 20.9 on lolking) armor runepage you see on chauster/xpecial/whoever is running armor marks. Chauster actually runs armor marks several pages. Some where he runs gold/10 yellows, and others where he combines armor reds with armor yellows to have that 21 armor combination. | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On September 10 2012 23:55 AsmodeusXI wrote: I've found that armor reds are fun just because no one expects you to take as little damage as you do so you can just ignore all the AD's harass. Especially as someone like Leona, you just ignore attacks and zone all day. Were talking about sona,leona is a different story. On September 10 2012 23:56 sylverfyre wrote: What? Armor reds are pretty standard for supports. They are pretty reasonable for efficiency at 0.9 armor per rune (8 armor to fill with) Any 21 (ingame - 20.9 on lolking) armor runepage you see on chauster/xpecial/whoever is running armor marks. Were talking about sona here lol,unless I'm missing something. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 10 2012 23:57 TheKefka wrote: Were talking about sona,leona is a different story. Were talking about sona here lol,unless I'm missing something. Yeah, Spellsy's recommendation on sona is armor reds to make up for the missing armor from running MP5 yellows. Chauster and Krepo are instead running MPen reds and keeping the armor on yellows - you don't want to run with 0 armor, that's just asking for trouble. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23395 Posts
On September 10 2012 23:30 sylverfyre wrote: Spellsy runs MP5/L yellow on sona (armor / scalingMP5 / MR / GP10) and I've seen Nhat Nguyen do the same. I cite them because non-main support players are less likely to dedicate multiple runepages to different support setups. Mana is an issue at all stages of the game for Sona (unless you find the money for a chalice, somehow) so runing it is NOT wasted. Not only that, but getting traded back when you go to Q/PC someone isn't a big deal since you're going to heal it off. Viewing it as "1 spell per minute" is a rather poor way of analyzing mana regen. By that logic, you can only cast a few spells per minute anyway (~10 MP5 at level 6, +3MP5 from masteries... ~3 spells per minute. Increasing that to 4 spells per minute is actually a pretty huge change in your throughput.) No it's not. You have a certain base mana pool. You have a certain amount of backs per minute. That means you have a flat amount of spells +as many as you get from mana regen per minute. Shurelyas is 15 mp5. Masteries is another 3 mp5. Scaling mp5 gives you maybe 10-20% increase in mana regen. Chalice is more than DOUBLE at low mana values and like 50% at around 3/4 or 1/2 mana. 5 mp5 at level 11 won't make you hit your comfort zone. I always just get chalice after shurelyas and then boom. I THINK I run the same page as chauster I think but I agree with krepos choice as well but gonig hp quints isn't a great idea on every support so whatever. (I used to run cdr/lvl blue but I started using flat mr when everyone started running ez/corki+leona/taric/nunu/blitz zzz) The idea behind krepos build is that most burst lanes aren't that heavily physically based so the inefficient amount of armour from reds maybe isn't optimal when you can get more efficent hp on quints scaling with your blues and yellows and then get the most efficient damage increase possible from reds since it works on both power chord and q and r. Chauster just wants the gp10 because people like gp10 on supports. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On September 10 2012 23:54 Seuss wrote: The math is easy. 25.5% AS versus 15.5 AD. For the sake of simplicity we'll assume you have the AS and AD masteries from the Offense tree, but nothing else that might affect our calculations. 0.658 [Shyvana's Base Attack Speed] * 0.255 [Attack Speed Bonus from Runes] * 60.9 [Shyvana's AD] = 10.22 [Auto-Attack DPS increase] 0.658 * 0.255 * 0.5 [Q Cooldown Reduction per Auto] * 109.62 [Q Damage @Rank 1] / 10 [Q Cooldown @Rank 1] = 0.920 [Q DPS increase] Total DPS increase: 11.14 DPS 0.658 * 15.5 [Bonus AD from Runes] = 10.2 [Auto-Attack DPS increase] 15.5 * 1.8 / (10 / (1 + 0.658 * 0.5)) = 3.7 [Q DPS increase] 15.5 * 0.2 * 7 [Max W Duration] / 12 [W Cooldown @Rank 1] = 1.81 [W DPS increase] Total DPS increase: 15.71 DPS AD is the clear winner here. It's also very important to note that AD's damage is front loaded. Whether or not you have AS the small camps will generally only last as long as W's duration and 1-2 Qs anyway. With AD W does 21.7 more total damage in an AoE, and Q does 27.9 more damage per use. Basically, early jungling is easier with AD, and when you gank your damage will be higher. I can't attest to the first point, but the second point in that list is clearly wrong. Auto->Q immediately stacks W's duration to 6 out of 7 possible seconds. Just as with clearing the jungle you don't need any attack speed to stack W's duration. Attack speed is a good stat on Shyvana, it's just not a compelling stat to rune for when jungling. Jungle rune pages are almost always about maximizing clear efficiency and safety or gank efficacy. For Shyvana AD simultaneously makes her clears faster and her ganks stronger, so it's the obvious way to go. Yeah, even if you're running MS quints, AD marks still outperform AS marks. AS is alright on shyvana, but you're likely going to be building it somewhere (like Wit's end) - it doesn't perform well on early clears where W is over half of your DPS on creeps. | ||
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TheKefka
Croatia11752 Posts
On September 11 2012 00:04 sylverfyre wrote: Yeah, Spellsy's recommendation on sona is armor reds to make up for the missing armor from running MP5 yellows. Chauster and Krepo are instead running MPen reds and keeping the armor on yellows - you don't want to run with 0 armor, that's just asking for trouble. Who even said that you should run 0 armor lol. It's like you people just throw things out there as randomly as you can just to say something. The starting point of the discussion was whether sona needs mp/5 regen,slayer and I say no and the best supports don't run them and have a dedicated sona page with no mp/5 regen.They use armor yellows and magic pen reds. | ||
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