EPT[Patch 1.0.0.146: Late August] General Discussion - Page 104
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On September 08 2012 13:20 xes wrote: Fizz is kind of hard for Swain because of his heal debuff. He has the advantage but one misstep and you get fish'd and die. Ryze can build Mercs and stack negatrons and still do a million damage. if you beat swain with Fizz you performed one of the hardest outplays in your life. it's not just his snare, it's his cost effective mana usage combined with his passive and his tankyness, FIzz combos are way to expencive to deal with a guy who can just e>q you over and over for free if he last hits correctly. Galio isn't unwinnable, he has to push to harass you(abuse your passive) and you can dodge his q pretty easily with q or just moving with good reactions. so basically you can freefarm vs. him, I've actually FB'd a galio before but I just think he was bad, but if he's pushed you can kill him with a gank, but you will probly have to rely on ganking side lanes if you want kills. Mainly it's a bad matchup because freefarm galio > freefarm Fizz in teamfights, and Galio can push hard enough to not put himself in danger after 1 minor purchase making it hard for you to gank without losing tower/exp but it's not a bad matchup in that he can push you out of lane from level 2 onward without pushing the lane, which Ryze and Swain both can do. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On September 08 2012 14:13 wei2coolman wrote: People do this O.o? Maybe like pre-level 30? Secret nerf to Lee, when you carry, game crashes. No it's not just a pre-30 thing. I think it's more of a result of having literally 0 influence from actually good players from when they first started out, so they got into these habbits of liking certain items/builds (think of all the people sho build swifties on ashe). Like i have friends who i played with for 2 years who still do stuff like thornmail/fon rushes on "tanks" and will not listen to me regardless of what I say because they're so dead set in their ways. Back when atmogs was popular i just told my friend to build that everygame simply because it's better than his horrible thornmail/fon rushes. X_x and at least he began to do twice as good because at the time the build worked decently even in competitive settings. Have you ever met the people who say "you gotta have a "tank" bro," cause you have like...double ap, noct jungle, and an ad, but you need a "tank" so they pick rammus bot lane instead of a tanky support like ali/leona that might go well with your ad trist? Those people are the kinds of people who will play a "tank" champ and do those horrible builds mainly because they were never taught any better. Instead of building randuins/FH they rush thornmail because they were never actually taught after hundreds of games certain item actives, or how strong they can be. Or they don't unserstand just how powerful some auras are. They just see "oh this unique passive deals so much damage back!" without understanding how it actually works, or "this item gives the most MR! It must be the best!" They don't understand how EHP works, so they get stuck into this bad method of thinking. They don't know efficiencies nor do they know what they are exactly paying for. Their game "depth" is phreak level ("you get gold by last hitting creeps!") | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On September 08 2012 14:58 BlackPaladin wrote: No it's not just a pre-30 thing. I think it's more of a result of having literally 0 influence from actually good players. Like i have friends who i played with for 2 years who still do stuff like thornmail/fon rushes on "tanks" and will not listen to me regardless of what I say because they're so dead set in their ways. Back when atmogs was popular i just told my fried to build that everygame simply because it's better than his horrible thornmail/fon rushes. X_x and at least he began to do twice as good because at the time the build worked decently even in competitive settings. Have you ever met the people who say "you gotta have a "tank" bro," cause you have like...double ap, noct jungle, and an ad, but you need a "tank" so they pick rammus bot lane instead of a tanky support like ali/leona that might go well with your ad trist? Those people are the kinds of people who will play a "tank" champ and do those horrible builds mainly because they were never taught any better. Instead of building randuins/FH they rush thornmail because they were never actually taught after hundreds of games certain item actives, or how strong they can be. Or they don't unserstand just how powerful some auras are. They just see "oh this unique passive deals so much damage back!" without understanding how it actually works, or "this item gives the most MR! It must be the best!" They don't understand how EHP works, so they get stuck into this bad method of thinking. They don't know efficiencies nor do they know what they are exactly paying for. Their game "depth" is phreak level ("you get gold by last hitting creeps!") And to make things worse in my experience, they will talk about how right they are. Just today, I had someone who rushes FoN and Sunfire on Morde and justified himself by saying "Pros figure everything out by themselves, they do not blindly follow others." He rushed brutalizer on jungle Shyvana only to follow up with a Locket. Pros are not Gods...Dyrus was heavily influenced by some relatively unknown people on solomid and the famous Odd One Maokai was influenced by doooooooooooo0m. And then there are people who still think Jungle Warwick is still viable... | ||
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qtiehunter
1088 Posts
AP takes longer to build and hit hard consistently. If we got to the point where enemy AP carries are fed and raping shit, it means we're pretty deep into the game. Before that happens, enemy AD carries will also be fed and hitting harder than APs at that time point. Also ragequits don't happen after you've been playing for a long time; they always happen during or righ after laning stage when the first teambattles take place and your team gets (nearly) aced twice "this is lost" "yes or afk". So yeah by the time you're 3v5 sparta'ing your base the enemy aps hardly have dcap and when they blow their spells they still have long cooldowns and little magic penetration so most of the times it's not cost efficient to build MR. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On September 08 2012 14:12 HazMat wrote: 2 of my games today crashed and you couldn't reconnect back to them. Both games I was Lee Sin and carrying. You can't explain that. ya me2 except voyboy was anticarrying us so it was k | ||
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I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
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AsmodeusXI
United States15536 Posts
On September 08 2012 12:44 Phrost wrote: Am I weird for wanting less bans? Honestly I think if bans were more important (via having less of them) you would see a more interesting result. Also I see the problem he thinks will happen because of interwoven ban/pick but if you limit to 4 bans and do banx2 pickx4 banx2 pickx6 it will really let the game evolve into something a lot greater YOU. I totally played a game with you earlier. Unless there's another TL Phrost hanging around NA. You got to see my worst Sona and stomp all over my Vayne lane partner. ... Well played. That ADC was such a whiner. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On September 08 2012 15:04 wei2coolman wrote: Hmmmmm, I feel I fall into that trap pretty hard sometimes. I still favor gp10 too heavily in top and mid lane (bad habit), or I use to do only cloth 5 starts with lee sin, etc etc. I remember smash's blog about getting rid of your crutch, it really improved my play. THX SMASH. It's a similar idea. Everyone falls into traps like that if they become complacent. The game is constantly changing and you need to find ways to adapt. TOO even was so used to the old jungle that when they remade the jungle he outright fell into a slump by not being able to adapt at the time. At lower levels of play though people are a lot like what slaughter described. They believe they're being "unique" and finding new builds when in reality they're still using old/bad builds back from the early days of LoL when people had literally no idea how to play or build (sunfire + fon morde for example is something that i've seen for years, but only at low level) Obviously this is remedied by learning from others, and theorycrafting/testing builds. Top players can get away with it and create new builds because they play so much daily that they can test things out over a large number of games. While casual players who think they're doing the same are actually just setting themselves up to fail, partially due to their lak of game knowledge and partially due to their lack of time to play the numerous games to test builds. Like look at spellsy posting about building dorans shield on certain supports. He did a ton of testing and theorycraft to come up with that. Look at smash's nunu top build. They put a lot of thought and work into it. It's the bad players that go "this item gives 100 armor, thus it must be good cause i have x amount of armor now! So tanky!" who think they are being inventive that really juat set themselves up to fail. The thing is, a lot of low elo players aren't stupid. There is logic behind what they do. But they are low elo because they lack certain needed mechanics/knowledge of the game. If you look back when you first began playing you will see this too. That you had some weird crux that at the time you thought was so good/inventive and it's worked for you for so many games. Monte has a friend who builds MBR on akali. I have friends who did fon/thorn rushes. Rhav used to always build soul shroud on morg (and she was a morg main at the time). I used to do ghostblade on ashe. Do you think we would have built any of those items if we thought it was bad? It was us trying to be "inventive" with the champs we played. It's just it takes hundreds of games to learn the champions and items alone. Playing that much develops habbits and creates a desire to try new things as you play. But you need to work more on general game knowledge (learning about objectives, how to control them, laning basics and how to play agressive/passive, etc) first, which people don't do because they played hundreds of games and feel they know what's right and good. However, it's not until you have most of the game knowledge down that you should actually begin to work on builds by looking at cost efficiencies and debating about what would be good. People try to learn too fast and try to become inventive before they even have all the basics down. It's why math can get so hard for a lot of people because they try to rush into it without fully understanding the basics. The same can be applied to learning most new things. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35166 Posts
On September 08 2012 15:23 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I'm seeing a huge influx of Yoricks recently.... Is it just my bad luck or are others seeing an increase in him as well? 1. Champ gets played competitively. 2. ??? 3. It's everywhere. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
Seems very likely that someone on Curse is gonna get booted. Imo, Westrice and Elementz both have shitty champion pools for their roles and if Curse wants to be a competitor for #1 NA team they probably will have to replace both of them eventually. I just don't see either one ever being top tier players at their roles. I'm not sure if Salce is the way to go for a new solo top but if he can play solo top as well as he played AP mid he'll be an improvement over Westrice. I don't see Westrice being better than Elementz at support. If the team really does feel like Ele and West are weak links they should probably just replace both of them in one fell swoop than try out some crazy mix up. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35166 Posts
On September 08 2012 15:54 BlackPaladin wrote: It's a similar idea. Everyone falls into traps like that if they become complacent. The game is constantly changing and you need to find ways to adapt. TOO even was so used to the old jungle that when they remade the jungle he outright fell into a slump by not being able to adapt at the time. At lower levels of play though people are a lot like what slaughter described. They believe they're being "unique" and finding new builds when in reality they're still using old/bad builds back from the early days of LoL when people had literally no idea how to play or build (sunfire + fon morde for example is something that i've seen for years, but only at low level) Obviously this is remedied by learning from others, and theorycrafting/testing builds. Top players can get away with it and create new builds because they play so much daily that they can test things out over a large number of games. While casual players who think they're doing the same are actually just setting themselves up to fail, partially due to their lak of game knowledge and partially due to their lack of time to play the numerous games to test builds. Like look at spellsy posting about building dorans shield on certain supports. He did a ton of testing and theorycraft to come up with that. Look at smash's nunu top build. They put a lot of thought and work into it. It's the bad players that go "this item gives 100 armor, thus it must be good cause i have x amount of armor now! So tanky!" who think they are being inventive that really juat set themselves up to fail. The thing is, a lot of low elo players aren't stupid. There is logic behind what they do. But they are low elo because they lack certain needed mechanics/knowledge of the game. If you look back when you first began playing you will see this too. That you had some weird crux that at the time you thought was so good/inventive and it's worked for you for so many games. Monte has a friend who builds MBR on akali. I have friends who did fon/thorn rushes. Rhav used to always build soul shroud on morg (and she was a morg main at the time). I used to do ghostblade on ashe. Do you think we would have built any of those items if we thought it was bad? It was us trying to be "inventive" with the champs we played. It's just it takes hundreds of games to learn the champions and items alone. Playing that much develops habbits and creates a desire to try new things as you play. But you need to work more on general game knowledge (learning about objectives, how to control them, laning basics and how to play agressive/passive, etc) first, which people don't do because they played hundreds of games and feel they know what's right and good. However, it's not until you have most of the game knowledge down that you should actually begin to work on builds by looking at cost efficiencies and debating about what would be good. People try to learn too fast and try to become inventive before they even have all the basics down. It's why math can get so hard for a lot of people because they try to rush into it without fully understanding the basics. The same can be applied to learning most new things. Couldn't agree more. One of the first things I did when I started playing this game was figuring out what was what. As Will Smith once said: The reason that reading is so important is that there have been millions and billions and gazillions of people that have lived before all of us. There is no new problem you can have. With parents, with school, with a bully, with anything...There's no new problem you can have, that somebody else hasn't already solved, and wrote about it in a book. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On September 08 2012 15:23 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I'm seeing a huge influx of Yoricks recently.... Is it just my bad luck or are others seeing an increase in him as well? I haven't seen any Yoricks in last 50 games or so.. It's a shame, Yorick is such a good champion, he has sick laning phase and scales really well into lategame thanks to AD carry ghost imbaimba. It's true that he is gankable and really needs a farmed AD carry, getting AD carry farmed isn't usually a problem. People really need to start playing him more, I mean I saw more Renektons than Yoricks lately wtf | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On September 08 2012 16:19 Scip wrote: People really need to start playing him more you make me ill. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
should warn bly for not being able to read thread titles obv this isn't the brag thread amirite? | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On September 08 2012 14:34 Slusher wrote: if you beat swain with Fizz you performed one of the hardest outplays in your life. it's not just his snare, it's his cost effective mana usage combined with his passive and his tankyness, FIzz combos are way to expencive to deal with a guy who can just e>q you over and over for free if he last hits correctly. Galio isn't unwinnable, he has to push to harass you(abuse your passive) and you can dodge his q pretty easily with q or just moving with good reactions. so basically you can freefarm vs. him, I've actually FB'd a galio before but I just think he was bad, but if he's pushed you can kill him with a gank, but you will probly have to rely on ganking side lanes if you want kills. Mainly it's a bad matchup because freefarm galio > freefarm Fizz in teamfights, and Galio can push hard enough to not put himself in danger after 1 minor purchase making it hard for you to gank without losing tower/exp but it's not a bad matchup in that he can push you out of lane from level 2 onward without pushing the lane, which Ryze and Swain both can do. I don't agree with Galio being better in team fights Fizz with Zonyas+DFG is one if not the best zoners in the game. Swain is not impossible but it heavily favored. With clever ganks you can fairly easily kill him. | ||
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