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[Patch 1.0.0.145: Rengar] General Discussion - Page 18

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WaveofShadow
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada31495 Posts
August 16 2012 04:12 GMT
#341
Lol from watching Vowels + co. queue up into Lautemortis I'd say Diana in the next tourney seems pretty likely.
twitch.tv/waveofshadow ||| Winner of AHGL's So You Think You Can Cast! ||| Juicy Dad for lyfe ||| 'idk i get a kick out of stupid things' - Jarms Yarng
Feartheguru
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1334 Posts
August 16 2012 04:20 GMT
#342
On August 16 2012 11:18 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 10:16 Feartheguru wrote:
On August 16 2012 09:13 TheYango wrote:
On August 16 2012 08:39 Feartheguru wrote:
Ok, just no. People always say this and guess what? No one plays him. No he is not a situational pick, and no he's not worth picking 4th or 5th. He literally has a pillar and nothing else, his whole kid is pure garbage except one spell. There are always people that argue for underpowered niche champs being situational but TheOddOne's description was right on the money. "Trundle and Sejuani are not situational, they're just garbage".

Why should I trust TOO on the subject when he makes an assessment without bothering to learn to play the champion correctly?

Not a big surprise that Trundle feels like a trash champion to play when you build him with some garbage Wriggles->gp10->Triforce build.

On August 16 2012 08:39 Feartheguru wrote:
Remember the poke comp.? Cait/Nid/Kog/Janna, if Trundle is situational, isn't this exactly the situation? Guess what? They're rather pick champs like Maokai. Please give me a realistic situation where no champ outshines Trundle and tell me why he's not picked in that situation because I haven't seen trundle in a game or on stream for months.

Because everyone has these trash builds ingrained into their heads and play him incorrectly? It's not exactly uncommon that a strong champion will go undiscovered because people play him incorrectly. Everyone thought Ezzy was the worst AD carry in the game until people learned from Chinese teams and started using W-max builds to crush lanes.

As far as I'm concerned, I've only ever seen two competitive players play and build Trundle correctly: Jatt, and Lilballz. And both players were/are wildly successful with Trundle when they choose to play him and pick him into the right comp.


Fine don't trust TOO because he doesn't play trundle, I agree it would make more sense to look at the opinions of top players who do play him like... O wait...

like who? TOO? He doesn't play Trundle. Last time I checked literally no pro player outside Jatt and Lilballz ever played Trundle. SV played Trundle a few times when he was on CLG and they ran poke comps.

People stopped running Trundle for several reasons, none of which have to do with him being a trash champ. Jungle remake caused a wave of super fast aoe clear junglers stealing the limelight. Around the same time, double AP got really popular and Maokai>Trundle against double AP. Trundle shines in situations where the other team has strong bruisers, which simply isn't what most teams run nowadays.
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 11:14 Scip wrote:
Well, if you jungle you pretty much have to max Q first I guess, unless you go some weird build where maxing Contaminate or w/e the name is worth it (no idea what that would involve lol). But the thing is, your contaminate thing scales really really well with other items because the CC reduc and mspeed and attack speed are just so good when you have some extra AD to go with it from items. But you are kind of a poor guy because you farm pretty slowly.

So you kinda just fire away your pillar, ultimate and autoattack whoever you can afford to :3 Maxing pillar 2nd is also good for the CD, it's mean long at lvl 1, but as was said lvl 5 with max CDR = 100% uptime.

Pillars got to be a stun or something, it most certainly can stop people from bluepilling if you hit them just right.

It stops people from recalling because it deals 1 true damage, not necessarily because it moves them. Riot added the 1 true damage on the pillar to make it so you take tower aggro and so you can stop recalls when you pillar someone.

There was actually a pretty hilarious bug where you could get your tower to kill you as Trundle. You had to use Heimer turrets to do it iirc.


I was saying the same thing, that no one plays Trundle.
Don't sweat the petty stuff, don't pet the sweaty stuff.
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
August 16 2012 04:28 GMT
#343
On August 16 2012 12:15 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 11:44 Alzadar wrote:
I've never really understood why people think of Trundle as a jungler. Everything about his kit screams "top lane" to me, and while I realize there is often overlap between those roles, in Trundle's case I feel like most of his skills are poor for jungling.

His Q makes him unbeatable for all AD-based champions, W and E make him tough to gank and a great gank-assister, and his ultimate makes him the bane of resist stackers.


I have a friend who plays Trundle top lane. I would say it's just as good as Nasus... yea.... he is melee ranged for the most part and he is pretty easily kited.


Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 10:57 Slusher wrote:
Situational trundle time? When the other team runs malphite or double tank lineup

He is also very legit vs Mundo, honestly I get scared when I read these types of conversations because this kinda shit leads to the kat remake. There are 101 champions to choose if you don't like Trundle then just don't play him.

P.s. he is good

Also saying that flash makes pillar suck is a pretty dumb statement considering flash makes twisted advance, perhaps the most face roll ganking tool in the game also suck. A burnt flash is a good gank.


The problem with pillar is that it's not universally useful. Sure, if you try to gank a Darius with the pillar it will be good, but you can't expect yourself to succeed a gank against anyone with a gap closer. Twisted advance is pretty much universally useful because of the bind.


Nasus is one of the weakest champions in the game until he reaches a good level of Siphon stacks. Pretty much anyone can bully him. Trundle, on the other hand, is an exceptional duelist from level 1.

Contaminate + Pillar are a pretty good combo for not being kited. Sure he's not Irelia, but he's not exactly easy to kite.

I'd say his main strength is his ability to peel tanks and bruisers off of a carry. 50% resist shred, 45% slow, -20 AD debuff; suddenly that Jax/Malphite/Warwick doesn't seem so scary.
I am the Town Medic.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 16 2012 04:39 GMT
#344
On August 16 2012 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol from watching Vowels + co. queue up into Lautemortis I'd say Diana in the next tourney seems pretty likely.


Diana's teamfight is pretty sad though. Her Q is not that good as a poke, and she will melt in a teamfight because her shield only adds a flat amount of "HP". Also she can't anti-carry as well as Akali can because Diana's burst is mediocre and she relies greatly on her autos to do damage.. and she falls off just as hard as Akali does. Granted, she has been doing very well in soloQ, but that does not translate into organized, tournament plays.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Kaneh
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada737 Posts
August 16 2012 04:49 GMT
#345
On August 16 2012 13:28 Alzadar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 12:15 Sufficiency wrote:
On August 16 2012 11:44 Alzadar wrote:
I've never really understood why people think of Trundle as a jungler. Everything about his kit screams "top lane" to me, and while I realize there is often overlap between those roles, in Trundle's case I feel like most of his skills are poor for jungling.

His Q makes him unbeatable for all AD-based champions, W and E make him tough to gank and a great gank-assister, and his ultimate makes him the bane of resist stackers.


I have a friend who plays Trundle top lane. I would say it's just as good as Nasus... yea.... he is melee ranged for the most part and he is pretty easily kited.


On August 16 2012 10:57 Slusher wrote:
Situational trundle time? When the other team runs malphite or double tank lineup

He is also very legit vs Mundo, honestly I get scared when I read these types of conversations because this kinda shit leads to the kat remake. There are 101 champions to choose if you don't like Trundle then just don't play him.

P.s. he is good

Also saying that flash makes pillar suck is a pretty dumb statement considering flash makes twisted advance, perhaps the most face roll ganking tool in the game also suck. A burnt flash is a good gank.


The problem with pillar is that it's not universally useful. Sure, if you try to gank a Darius with the pillar it will be good, but you can't expect yourself to succeed a gank against anyone with a gap closer. Twisted advance is pretty much universally useful because of the bind.


Nasus is one of the weakest champions in the game until he reaches a good level of Siphon stacks. Pretty much anyone can bully him. Trundle, on the other hand, is an exceptional duelist from level 1.

Contaminate + Pillar are a pretty good combo for not being kited. Sure he's not Irelia, but he's not exactly easy to kite.

I'd say his main strength is his ability to peel tanks and bruisers off of a carry. 50% resist shred, 45% slow, -20 AD debuff; suddenly that Jax/Malphite/Warwick doesn't seem so scary.


uhhh siphon stacks are the least of your worries and not the reason nasus is weak or strong.

trundle top lane is pointless because he doesn't require or use farm particularly well - like many people have stated, a fed trundle is notorious for his inability to carry. And pillar is pillar is pillar no matter how much or little farm you have. Same with the stealing on Q and his ult.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 16 2012 04:56 GMT
#346
On August 16 2012 13:49 Kaneh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 13:28 Alzadar wrote:
On August 16 2012 12:15 Sufficiency wrote:
On August 16 2012 11:44 Alzadar wrote:
I've never really understood why people think of Trundle as a jungler. Everything about his kit screams "top lane" to me, and while I realize there is often overlap between those roles, in Trundle's case I feel like most of his skills are poor for jungling.

His Q makes him unbeatable for all AD-based champions, W and E make him tough to gank and a great gank-assister, and his ultimate makes him the bane of resist stackers.


I have a friend who plays Trundle top lane. I would say it's just as good as Nasus... yea.... he is melee ranged for the most part and he is pretty easily kited.


On August 16 2012 10:57 Slusher wrote:
Situational trundle time? When the other team runs malphite or double tank lineup

He is also very legit vs Mundo, honestly I get scared when I read these types of conversations because this kinda shit leads to the kat remake. There are 101 champions to choose if you don't like Trundle then just don't play him.

P.s. he is good

Also saying that flash makes pillar suck is a pretty dumb statement considering flash makes twisted advance, perhaps the most face roll ganking tool in the game also suck. A burnt flash is a good gank.


The problem with pillar is that it's not universally useful. Sure, if you try to gank a Darius with the pillar it will be good, but you can't expect yourself to succeed a gank against anyone with a gap closer. Twisted advance is pretty much universally useful because of the bind.


Nasus is one of the weakest champions in the game until he reaches a good level of Siphon stacks. Pretty much anyone can bully him. Trundle, on the other hand, is an exceptional duelist from level 1.

Contaminate + Pillar are a pretty good combo for not being kited. Sure he's not Irelia, but he's not exactly easy to kite.

I'd say his main strength is his ability to peel tanks and bruisers off of a carry. 50% resist shred, 45% slow, -20 AD debuff; suddenly that Jax/Malphite/Warwick doesn't seem so scary.


uhhh siphon stacks are the least of your worries and not the reason nasus is weak or strong.

trundle top lane is pointless because he doesn't require or use farm particularly well - like many people have stated, a fed trundle is notorious for his inability to carry. And pillar is pillar is pillar no matter how much or little farm you have. Same with the stealing on Q and his ult.


Are you saying he doesn't scale well? His W does scale with him though, since it's a MS buff and everything.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-16 05:00:04
August 16 2012 04:59 GMT
#347
Isn't trundle more of a support champion, that you can put in the jungle and make him perform with the same scale of farming like alistar? I've always felt you really only need CDR and tankiness to be useful to your team, especially when you can spam a pillar every few seconds, pop your ult on whoever is diving your carry and just rape him without letting any other enemies get close.
hi
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
August 16 2012 05:14 GMT
#348
On August 16 2012 13:39 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol from watching Vowels + co. queue up into Lautemortis I'd say Diana in the next tourney seems pretty likely.


Diana's teamfight is pretty sad though. Her Q is not that good as a poke, and she will melt in a teamfight because her shield only adds a flat amount of "HP". Also she can't anti-carry as well as Akali can because Diana's burst is mediocre and she relies greatly on her autos to do damage.. and she falls off just as hard as Akali does. Granted, she has been doing very well in soloQ, but that does not translate into organized, tournament plays.

I don't understand why people even bother banning Diana. She's not even doing that well in solo q. Her winrate in solo q overall is around 52%. In gold elo it's slightly over 52% and it's 51% at plat. Compare that to Zyra who's still rocking a 56%+ winrate at all levels of play and it just boggles my mind that people ban Diana over Zyra.

Diana's burst is strong and all, but she's incredibly all-in and when you build her pure AP you're heavily reliant on blowing stuff up in a single spell rotation or you're screwed. AP Diana's supposed tankiness is vastly overstated. She's no more tanky than pure AP Rumble.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
August 16 2012 05:14 GMT
#349
And then we get to the part where Alistar does that better
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
August 16 2012 05:16 GMT
#350
On August 16 2012 13:59 Sponkz wrote:
Isn't trundle more of a support champion, that you can put in the jungle and make him perform with the same scale of farming like alistar? I've always felt you really only need CDR and tankiness to be useful to your team, especially when you can spam a pillar every few seconds, pop your ult on whoever is diving your carry and just rape him without letting any other enemies get close.

Trundle is crazy strong in select scenarios. His ult's ability to completely wreck tanks and make him near invincible is insane. Add his crazy steroids from Contaminate and you have a damn strong mid/late game bruiser relative to other bruisers. The biggest problem is that teams don't tend to run bruiser/tank heavy compositions anymore. Double AP or early/mid-game centric team comps currently dictate the meta and Trundle performs sub-par in this meta compared to other champs.
R04R
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1631 Posts
August 16 2012 05:22 GMT
#351
On August 16 2012 14:14 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 13:39 Sufficiency wrote:
On August 16 2012 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol from watching Vowels + co. queue up into Lautemortis I'd say Diana in the next tourney seems pretty likely.


Diana's teamfight is pretty sad though. Her Q is not that good as a poke, and she will melt in a teamfight because her shield only adds a flat amount of "HP". Also she can't anti-carry as well as Akali can because Diana's burst is mediocre and she relies greatly on her autos to do damage.. and she falls off just as hard as Akali does. Granted, she has been doing very well in soloQ, but that does not translate into organized, tournament plays.

I don't understand why people even bother banning Diana. She's not even doing that well in solo q. Her winrate in solo q overall is around 52%. In gold elo it's slightly over 52% and it's 51% at plat. Compare that to Zyra who's still rocking a 56%+ winrate at all levels of play and it just boggles my mind that people ban Diana over Zyra.

Diana's burst is strong and all, but she's incredibly all-in and when you build her pure AP you're heavily reliant on blowing stuff up in a single spell rotation or you're screwed. AP Diana's supposed tankiness is vastly overstated. She's no more tanky than pure AP Rumble.


Because she looks pretty scary to anyone's eyes when she begins to snowball. It might not translate to high win % but it definitely stays in peoples heads.
ô¿ô
NEOtheONE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2233 Posts
August 16 2012 05:23 GMT
#352
On August 16 2012 13:39 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol from watching Vowels + co. queue up into Lautemortis I'd say Diana in the next tourney seems pretty likely.


Diana's teamfight is pretty sad though. Her Q is not that good as a poke, and she will melt in a teamfight because her shield only adds a flat amount of "HP". Also she can't anti-carry as well as Akali can because Diana's burst is mediocre and she relies greatly on her autos to do damage.. and she falls off just as hard as Akali does. Granted, she has been doing very well in soloQ, but that does not translate into organized, tournament plays.


Well she's good enough to carry hard with in jungle in unorganized play so I am happy. 3 for my last 3 with her and carrying fairly hard (or getting our carry fed) every time. She doesn't melt in a teamfight. I played against a gragas, le blanc, poppy, lee sin, and zilean and I stayed alive in teamfights for considerably longer than I thought I should have been able to.
Abstracts, the too long didn't read of the educated world.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
August 16 2012 05:39 GMT
#353
On August 16 2012 14:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 13:59 Sponkz wrote:
Isn't trundle more of a support champion, that you can put in the jungle and make him perform with the same scale of farming like alistar? I've always felt you really only need CDR and tankiness to be useful to your team, especially when you can spam a pillar every few seconds, pop your ult on whoever is diving your carry and just rape him without letting any other enemies get close.

Trundle is crazy strong in select scenarios. His ult's ability to completely wreck tanks and make him near invincible is insane. Add his crazy steroids from Contaminate and you have a damn strong mid/late game bruiser relative to other bruisers. The biggest problem is that teams don't tend to run bruiser/tank heavy compositions anymore. Double AP or early/mid-game centric team comps currently dictate the meta and Trundle performs sub-par in this meta compared to other champs.


I can't fathom for a second how you get him to be a strong mid/late game bruiser relative to other bruisers. Maybe if you've managed to farm the jungle well and acquire a solid amount of kills/assists.... both of which are quite the task on the Troll. Anytime I've played trundle in the last months the exact same thought runs through my head... "Man, if I had like, 3k more gold right now this could be really fun." I love trundle, but he's simply not good. Not in the current meta or any incarnation of it within the past months and months and months.

He shines in tiny scenarios that if teams play correctly can simply be avoided. Don't engage him in small jungle gaps where his pillar might split the team really well. And similarly, if you're laning against a trundle in the jungle don't hug the walls when he comes so his pillar wont completely trap you.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 16 2012 05:44 GMT
#354
On August 16 2012 14:14 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 13:39 Sufficiency wrote:
On August 16 2012 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol from watching Vowels + co. queue up into Lautemortis I'd say Diana in the next tourney seems pretty likely.


Diana's teamfight is pretty sad though. Her Q is not that good as a poke, and she will melt in a teamfight because her shield only adds a flat amount of "HP". Also she can't anti-carry as well as Akali can because Diana's burst is mediocre and she relies greatly on her autos to do damage.. and she falls off just as hard as Akali does. Granted, she has been doing very well in soloQ, but that does not translate into organized, tournament plays.

I don't understand why people even bother banning Diana. She's not even doing that well in solo q. Her winrate in solo q overall is around 52%. In gold elo it's slightly over 52% and it's 51% at plat. Compare that to Zyra who's still rocking a 56%+ winrate at all levels of play and it just boggles my mind that people ban Diana over Zyra.

Diana's burst is strong and all, but she's incredibly all-in and when you build her pure AP you're heavily reliant on blowing stuff up in a single spell rotation or you're screwed. AP Diana's supposed tankiness is vastly overstated. She's no more tanky than pure AP Rumble.


It's around 55% right now. Although I suspect the high amount of Zyra may be a factor here.

But yea, you are right. AP Diana relies on autoing to do damage; her sustained damage for an AP is amazing. Unfortunately she is melee ranged.... so she gets focused.... A LOT. Basically she does a lot of damage, has little utility, and she is melee ranged..... this is why she will probably never see tournament plays.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 16 2012 05:48 GMT
#355
From reddit: new splash for Morgana and Miss Fortune: http://imgur.com/a/fekwM

I feel that the Morgana splash does need rework, but I am not sure about that one. The MF one looks really nice though.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
Goragoth
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
New Zealand1065 Posts
August 16 2012 05:55 GMT
#356
On August 16 2012 14:48 Sufficiency wrote:
From reddit: new splash for Morgana and Miss Fortune: http://imgur.com/a/fekwM

I feel that the Morgana splash does need rework, but I am not sure about that one. The MF one looks really nice though.

I like the look of the new Morgana splash. Though I really wish they'd update the blatant recolours first (like Tristana Classic/Riot Girl).
Creator of LoLTool.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
August 16 2012 06:06 GMT
#357
Of all the arts they could have taken the Chinese art for, they really should have done it with Morgana.
Moderator
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
August 16 2012 06:08 GMT
#358
On August 16 2012 14:44 Sufficiency wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2012 14:14 Ryuu314 wrote:
On August 16 2012 13:39 Sufficiency wrote:
On August 16 2012 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
Lol from watching Vowels + co. queue up into Lautemortis I'd say Diana in the next tourney seems pretty likely.


Diana's teamfight is pretty sad though. Her Q is not that good as a poke, and she will melt in a teamfight because her shield only adds a flat amount of "HP". Also she can't anti-carry as well as Akali can because Diana's burst is mediocre and she relies greatly on her autos to do damage.. and she falls off just as hard as Akali does. Granted, she has been doing very well in soloQ, but that does not translate into organized, tournament plays.

I don't understand why people even bother banning Diana. She's not even doing that well in solo q. Her winrate in solo q overall is around 52%. In gold elo it's slightly over 52% and it's 51% at plat. Compare that to Zyra who's still rocking a 56%+ winrate at all levels of play and it just boggles my mind that people ban Diana over Zyra.

Diana's burst is strong and all, but she's incredibly all-in and when you build her pure AP you're heavily reliant on blowing stuff up in a single spell rotation or you're screwed. AP Diana's supposed tankiness is vastly overstated. She's no more tanky than pure AP Rumble.


It's around 55% right now. Although I suspect the high amount of Zyra may be a factor here.

But yea, you are right. AP Diana relies on autoing to do damage; her sustained damage for an AP is amazing. Unfortunately she is melee ranged.... so she gets focused.... A LOT. Basically she does a lot of damage, has little utility, and she is melee ranged..... this is why she will probably never see tournament plays.

I'm looking at weekly win %. It's more reliable than on a day by day basis.

She has a lot of damage and her utility is quite good with enough cdr to get 2+ E's in a fight. Her biggest problem is how all-in her kit is. Unlike other assassins, she has no way to disengage if things are going badly, if she's getting focused, or if she needs to wait out some cooldowns. Champs like Akali and Kat can disengage at will with shroud and shunpo to lose some aggro and jump back in once the enemy team switches focus. Diana can't do that.
Sufficiency
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada23833 Posts
August 16 2012 06:13 GMT
#359
On August 16 2012 15:06 TheYango wrote:
Of all the arts they could have taken the Chinese art for, they really should have done it with Morgana.


They really, really, really, really, really need to use the Chinese splash for Lux.
https://twitter.com/SufficientStats
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
August 16 2012 06:20 GMT
#360
they should just go back to this + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
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