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United States47024 Posts
On August 28 2012 05:37 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:13 Requizen wrote:
I'm a bit sad, I originally picked up Ez as my AD because he was so under-played, but now he's fucking everywhere :\
That's why I play Cait to be different (and she's fun, imo), but then Cait late game. I still play Ez and Corki all the time despite them being popular. Because they're way more fun than the other AD carries. I agree that I don't think these nerfs will change anything. I think Riot should consider buffing some of the other AD carries to accommodate for their lack of escapes rather than further nerfing Ez/Corki/Graves. Because the only way to end those three champions dominance would be to change their kits around or to nerf them so hard that their damage isn't worth the fact that they have good escapes.
Honestly, I don't even think that Ez/Corki/Graves nerfs are even warranted.
AD carry choice is driven more by the types of team-comps they fit than specific ones being "OP". Ez/Corki/Graves are popular right now because among ADs, they're the 3 strongest midgame teamfighters--and currently teams heavily favor midgame teamfight-oriented comps.
It wasn't that long ago that Ashe/Vayne/Kog were the AD carries of choice just because the team comps to play were lategame 4-protects-1 teams. When new teamcomps come in style, champ popularity shifts in favor of champs good for those comps, with or without Riot's intervention.
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is there way that you see late game carries coming back short of directly nerfing the early/mid game dominance of the current top ranged AD picks?
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similarly new releases like diana have a very strong midgame power curve while not falling to total irrelevance lategame due to her kit. i think the midgame oriented mpen stacks on ap (sorcs guise abyssal) reflect this earlier power spike.
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Yeah I'm tired of Riot nerfing everything so they make their new characters or remakes look OP. Maybe they should consider buffing the counters to the strong champs for once
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On August 28 2012 05:50 Mogwai wrote:
is there way that you see late game carries coming back short of directly nerfing the early/mid game dominance of the current top ranged AD picks?
Outside of playing an explicit 4-protect-1 strategy, unlikely. (Or if the opposing team derps hard. But then that makes anything viable.)
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On August 28 2012 05:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:37 overt wrote:On August 28 2012 05:13 Requizen wrote:
I'm a bit sad, I originally picked up Ez as my AD because he was so under-played, but now he's fucking everywhere :\
That's why I play Cait to be different (and she's fun, imo), but then Cait late game. I still play Ez and Corki all the time despite them being popular. Because they're way more fun than the other AD carries. I agree that I don't think these nerfs will change anything. I think Riot should consider buffing some of the other AD carries to accommodate for their lack of escapes rather than further nerfing Ez/Corki/Graves. Because the only way to end those three champions dominance would be to change their kits around or to nerf them so hard that their damage isn't worth the fact that they have good escapes. Honestly, I don't even think that Ez/Corki/Graves nerfs are even warranted. AD carry choice is driven more by the types of team-comps they fit than specific ones being "OP". Ez/Corki/Graves are popular right now because among ADs, they're the 3 strongest midgame teamfighters--and currently teams heavily favor midgame teamfight-oriented comps. It wasn't that long ago that Ashe/Vayne/Kog were the AD carries of choice just because the team comps to play were lategame 4-protects-1 teams. When new teamcomps come in style, champ popularity shifts in favor of champs good for those comps, with or without Riot's intervention.
Well, they nerfed peel pretty hard so that is a major reason that escapes became semi-mandatory for the ADC.
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On August 28 2012 05:51 ViZe wrote:
Yeah I'm tired of Riot nerfing everything so they make their new characters or remakes look OP. Maybe they should consider buffing the counters to the strong champs for once
Riot nerfs things because it's easier to nerf 1 OP champion than buff 99 UP ones.
Still, the discussion is mostly about particular strategies being too strong, and AFAIK the last time Riot explicitly nerfed a strategy they were buffing baron and dragon and you couldn't solo them EZPZ anymore. But again, those are strategies that were nerfed by changing 1 or 2 units on the map rather than many champions across the board.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 28 2012 05:50 Navi wrote:
similarly new releases like diana have a very strong midgame power curve while not falling to total irrelevance lategame due to her kit. i think the midgame oriented mpen stacks on ap (sorcs guise abyssal) reflect this earlier power spike.
Pretty much this.
AD carry power is arguably the LEAST relevant pick to the viability of 4+1s. Far more relevant is the ability of the other 4 picks to control the tempo and create farming space for the AD. The presence/popularity of absolutely crushing teamfighters like Diana arguably contribute more to hurting the viability of 4+1 than midgame ADs being powerful.
When you've picked something like Diana/Zyra/etc, Corki/Ezzy/Graves fit their power growth more smoothly than Vayne/Ashe/Kog.
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On August 28 2012 05:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:37 overt wrote:On August 28 2012 05:13 Requizen wrote:
I'm a bit sad, I originally picked up Ez as my AD because he was so under-played, but now he's fucking everywhere :\
That's why I play Cait to be different (and she's fun, imo), but then Cait late game. I still play Ez and Corki all the time despite them being popular. Because they're way more fun than the other AD carries. I agree that I don't think these nerfs will change anything. I think Riot should consider buffing some of the other AD carries to accommodate for their lack of escapes rather than further nerfing Ez/Corki/Graves. Because the only way to end those three champions dominance would be to change their kits around or to nerf them so hard that their damage isn't worth the fact that they have good escapes. Honestly, I don't even think that Ez/Corki/Graves nerfs are even warranted. AD carry choice is driven more by the types of team-comps they fit than specific ones being "OP". Ez/Corki/Graves are popular right now because among ADs, they're the 3 strongest midgame teamfighters--and currently teams heavily favor midgame teamfight-oriented comps. It wasn't that long ago that Ashe/Vayne/Kog were the AD carries of choice just because the team comps to play were lategame 4-protects-1 teams.
We'll probably see everything cycle around again once people find ways to break down mid-game focused play. It might not be via the effective health abuse comps/synergies I proposed, but I don't think the current meta is so solid as to be immutable without Riot's intervention.
Soniv's already shut down at least one Azubu wannabe team with Viktor's ability to fend off pushes 4v5. It probably won't be long before someone else figures that out, or finds another champion or champion combination with similar efficacy.
On August 28 2012 05:52 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:50 Mogwai wrote:
is there way that you see late game carries coming back short of directly nerfing the early/mid game dominance of the current top ranged AD picks? Outside of playing an explicit 4-protect-1 strategy, unlikely. (Or if the opposing team derps hard. But then that makes anything viable.)
I think it's possible, based on the potential picks I listed, to formulate a team composition that has many of the qualities of a 4-protect-1 strategy without being completely reliant on the AD carry for late game damage.
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So basically when people remember than Anivia's in the game?
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On August 28 2012 06:07 Mogwai wrote:
So basically when people remember than Anivia's in the game?
AKA CLG.eu and their Koggles picks.
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On August 28 2012 06:05 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:48 TheYango wrote:On August 28 2012 05:37 overt wrote:On August 28 2012 05:13 Requizen wrote:
I'm a bit sad, I originally picked up Ez as my AD because he was so under-played, but now he's fucking everywhere :\
That's why I play Cait to be different (and she's fun, imo), but then Cait late game. I still play Ez and Corki all the time despite them being popular. Because they're way more fun than the other AD carries. I agree that I don't think these nerfs will change anything. I think Riot should consider buffing some of the other AD carries to accommodate for their lack of escapes rather than further nerfing Ez/Corki/Graves. Because the only way to end those three champions dominance would be to change their kits around or to nerf them so hard that their damage isn't worth the fact that they have good escapes. Honestly, I don't even think that Ez/Corki/Graves nerfs are even warranted. AD carry choice is driven more by the types of team-comps they fit than specific ones being "OP". Ez/Corki/Graves are popular right now because among ADs, they're the 3 strongest midgame teamfighters--and currently teams heavily favor midgame teamfight-oriented comps. It wasn't that long ago that Ashe/Vayne/Kog were the AD carries of choice just because the team comps to play were lategame 4-protects-1 teams. We'll probably see everything cycle around again once people find ways to break down mid-game focused play. It might not be via the effective health abuse comps/synergies I proposed, but I don't think the current meta is so solid as to be immutable without Riot's intervention. Soniv's already shut down at least one Azubu wannabe team with Viktor's ability to fend off pushes 4v5. It probably won't be long before someone else figures that out, or finds another champion or champion combination with similar efficacy.
We already know that Anivia can stop pushes and stall games into the late game. I think Ziggs can too, he clears stupidly quick and his minefield is a pretty decent deterrent to a team that wants to engage. I don't play much Viktor but I could see his stun-slow-ball-orb thing being good for dissuading aggression while also clearing waves quickly.
I could see CLGeu's stall forever strategy bringing more late game focused comps that require champions like Trist or Kog into play. Hell we've seen them play like that against M5 and win with it before.
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anivia so op i hate playing vs it @_@
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On August 28 2012 06:07 Mogwai wrote:
So basically when people remember than Anivia's in the game?
Can you clear easily with 2 Dring + Blasting wand as anivia? I honestly don't know the answer.
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On August 28 2012 06:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:07 Mogwai wrote:
So basically when people remember than Anivia's in the game? Can you clear easily with 2 Dring + Blasting wand as anivia? I honestly don't know the answer.
lolololol, yes, but you'll run out of mana. With similarly costed Anivia items though, yes, you can.
EDIT: namely just tear + chalice. like anivia even needs AP to kill creeps.
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On August 28 2012 06:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 05:50 Navi wrote:
similarly new releases like diana have a very strong midgame power curve while not falling to total irrelevance lategame due to her kit. i think the midgame oriented mpen stacks on ap (sorcs guise abyssal) reflect this earlier power spike. Pretty much this. AD carry power is arguably the LEAST relevant pick to the viability of 4+1s. Far more relevant is the ability of the other 4 picks to control the tempo and create farming space for the AD. The presence/popularity of absolutely crushing teamfighters like Diana arguably contribute more to hurting the viability of 4+1 than midgame ADs being powerful. When you've picked something like Diana/Zyra/etc, Corki/Ezzy/Graves fit their power growth more smoothly than Vayne/Ashe/Kog.
Yeah, corki ez and graves are just safe in every way possible - during the laning phase and during team fights. A Kog needs a full team with him made to protect him / make him potent in the fights.
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On August 28 2012 06:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:07 Mogwai wrote:
So basically when people remember than Anivia's in the game? Can you clear easily with 2 Dring + Blasting wand as anivia? I honestly don't know the answer.
You can clear easily with a catalyst or a chalice.
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CLGeu play different then most teams out there tho. They aim at the lategame instead of the most common midgame. Also Corki and Graves arent Yellowpetes strongest champions. Wickd loves to build bruisers protecting his carry and the whole team is build around teamplay.
M5 is still see hero kill hero
Theres also alot more champions out there viable for the midgame, name a diana, zyra and darius. If more lategame champions get released itll switch back eventually
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On August 28 2012 06:07 Mogwai wrote:
So basically when people remember than Anivia's in the game?
If I recall correctly the issue with Anivia and Ziggs (and many other candidates) is that they don't hit the critical point necessary for easy wave clearing before Azubu's aggressive push timing. I could be mistaken, but I believe that was a point Soniv made when I brought up those same champions. Viktor is the counter because he reaches the critical threshold quickly (2 Doran's + Augment), doesn't need Blue buff to clear an extended number of waves, and is extremely safe under the tower thanks to his range, area stun, and AoE damage.
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On August 28 2012 06:17 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:07 Mogwai wrote:
So basically when people remember than Anivia's in the game? If I recall correctly the issue with Anivia and Ziggs (and many other candidates) is that they don't hit the critical point necessary for easy wave clearing before Azubu's aggressive push timing. I could be mistaken, but I believe that was a point Soniv made when I brought up those same champions. Viktor is the counter because he reaches the critical threshold extremely early (2 Doran's + Augment), doesn't need Blue buff to clear an extended number of waves, and is extremely safe under the tower thanks to his area stun and AoE damage.
Sadly, only iG plays Viktor at all, let alone at a competitive level.
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EPT
