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Celestial
United States652 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:30 NeoIllusions wrote: Do we really not know who the quality posters are that we need to highlight them? Our subforum isn't as big as SC2's. Isn't the problem that newer posters don't know them in the first place to tell? We get new people now and again all the time and it's doubtful they'd know the veterans | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:26 jcarlsoniv wrote: Alright, everyone shut the fuck up. Enough with the ad hominem attacks. Vaporized - I appreciate that you're trying to make Rengar work. I think it's awesome (and I can relate coming from a Viktor background). But stop being a martyr and understand that people will be skeptical of you. Take Rengar into ranked, get against opponents who know what they're doing. If you continue to do well with Rengar, then awesome! let us know! Gtr - stop being a dick @everyone - Rengar is brand new. Being a bruiser, I would assume it will take people a bit longer to learn than someone like Zyra. I've been trashed by a few, and I've destroyed a few. But there has not been enough time for people to figure him out to instantly say "this champ is shit, buff now". I would rather Riot give him some time than to knee jerk a buff. For the good of all that is good could the lol community stop using either "It's too soon no one knows how to play him right" + "It's too soon no one knows how to counter him yet" One of these gets pulled out every time a champ is released. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't get why people ALWAYS use one of these when it's obvious they don't exist together. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote: is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>? i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD" meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts. it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh If you want a guide, you'd go on solomid and search the guide from some top player of the champion. What you'd not do is search the LoL forum of some starcraft website and take the first build you see appearing on your screen. Exept a few ones, guides on TL are not really that good, OP aren't really updated in a lot of cases and we don't have any super top player making them. The value of TL guide section from a learning standpoint is the discution that is created about the champions and the mechanics, you can see different points of vue coexisting or clashing with each others, there's no real YOU DO THAT step by step rigid guide, there's alot of discutions, opinions, observations, fun facts, anecdotes that come from every level of play and give you an actual global feel of the champion. Implementing a "merit system" where only people that win 1v1 lane top can talk and the rest shut up is short sighted and stupid. This is a discution forum, not a QandA on reddit. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:28 thenexusp wrote: SC2 strategy has a group of quality posters whose posts show up in darker blue, can that be extended to other forums? Edit: also if froggen wasn't so damn good we'd be shitting on his anivia builds all the time lol. I guess the moral is get better and people will take you serious no matter what you do lol, haven't we always though?  Granted, when he plays serious he only uses a standard AP build with RoA or his warmogs archangel build which actually makes sense due to aniva's passive, how slow she is, and how she has good base damages, so tankiness + mana makes her be able to kite you forever and never die. And CLG.eu love going super late game with tons of farm, so a fully stacked warmogs is one of the best items for that late in the game if you want to be tankier. Stuff like warmogs, lich, nashors he did was mostly him trolling around solo q cause that's how he is lol. | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote: meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts. it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh You called? Huehuehue | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:33 Celestial wrote: Isn't the problem that newer posters don't know them in the first place to tell? We get new people now and again all the time and it's doubtful they'd know the veterans yes, this is exactly my point prince xizor was able to say "i was plat season 1, here is why eve is OP" and without posting his summoner name, no one was able to verify that. TL is a place with high standards on the content of strategy, is it not? isn't that what we strive for? i have no problem with someone saying "hey guys i think hecarim's passive really allows for more movespeed oriented builds, and phantom dancer gives him the movespeed to really get that high AD. i'm only 1100 elo though, do you guys think this is a viable build?" even "hey guys i did the math and it looks like madred's bloodrazor is a really good item on AD carries. it gives %-based damage so you can melt tanks, and attack speed which synergizes really well with my AD items. why don't i see more pros build this? i think i'm going to start making builds around this" or even "on-hit kayle seems really strong. i think it's better than AD kayle." those are all posts that allow for better players to come in and refute points. when someone makes a guide and lists triforce double PD as the choice build, any of the tens of thousands of TL-LoL visitors coming to see a hecarim guide are going to think "hey this is a good build, in my experience you will always go 20-1 with this build." posts like that one, posts that say "rengar is bad guys don't play him" and contain a screenshot with no summoner name, no elo, and just 5 ridiculous wins; even posts like my vayne guide, which is admittedly terrible, those posts stand out. it's unfair to players like Suess, who is the quintessential hecarim player, or any AD player who actually plays Vayne, to have to have people like myself or princexizor shmuck up TL with bad builds and nothing to back them my final point is that i wish i had posted less when i was a worse player. looking back at old, bad posts by me - others took those as good posts. i probably made people worse at this game. now that i'm a less-bad player, i want other bad players to post less so good players can post more | ||
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0123456789
United States3216 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:43 0123456789 wrote: OMG Forum drama so cute!~<3 Just like Hafu. ;P | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:51 Roffles wrote: Gtr, If you want bad players to post less, why are you still posting? I don't think he wants them posting less, he just wants a way for posters to have credibility. (i wish we had ELO integration with lolking or something, that would be really cool) | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:51 Roffles wrote: Gtr, If you want bad players to post less, why are you still posting? Ouch! | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:43 0123456789 wrote: OMG Forum drama so cute!~<3 im enjoying it also. good stuff everyone. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote: is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>? i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD" meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts. it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh There's a big difference, vaporized is not anywhere near on the level of xizor or jazriel, man. He's completely right that atm he gets automatically mocked for anything he says because he argued for that hecarim build, and that his attitude isn't like, remarkably bad overall, like you present it. He's not pretending to be plat and hiding his info or anything, he's not pretending to special knowledge, nothing like that. When people dump on him in arguments he's like "meh, whatever, I was wrong". Or he says he has been, I don't actually remember. I mean we do get "I'd be higher elo except I play malz" (lol...) but he kinda had to get pushed to say that. You challenge almost anyone's competence directly and they're going to say silly things. I just don't see the issue. On August 26 2012 10:51 Roffles wrote: Gtr, If you want bad players to post less, why are you still posting? OH DAYUM | ||
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Craton
United States17274 Posts
On August 26 2012 09:31 Feartheguru wrote: Being considered OK often leads to people realizing they are good after a while. This applies to whoever made the point about Riven too. There has never been a champ considered god awful at release that did not get buffed. Yes, I do. A few thousand random samples is completely sound data. The DATA is sound. Your CONCLUSIONS are not. You are drawing inferences that the data does not say. It's day one statistics that you're taught not to overreach with your conclusions. Trying to say that a champion is "terrible" because 3 days worth of solo queue has him at a low win rate is completely unsupported. The most you can say is that the majority of games that have been played as Rengar have been losses. Trying to take that any further and say something like "because he's terrible" or "because players are bad" or "because he's easy to counter" IS NOT supported by the data. The data SUGGESTS that Rengar MIGHT be weak, but it also SUGGESTS that people MIGHT be bad at playing him or knowing when to pick him. There is a world of difference here. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On August 26 2012 11:15 UniversalSnip wrote: There's a big difference, vaporized is not anywhere near on the level of xizor or jazriel, man. He's completely right that atm he gets automatically mocked for anything he says because he argued for that hecarim build, and that his attitude isn't like, remarkably bad overall, like you present it. He's not pretending to be plat and hiding his info or anything, he's not pretending to special knowledge, nothing like that. When people dump on him in arguments he's like "meh, whatever, I was wrong". Or he says he has been, I don't actually remember. I mean we do get "I'd be higher elo except I play malz" (lol...) but he kinda had to get pushed to say that. You challenge almost anyone's competence directly and they're going to say silly things. I just don't see the issue. OH DAYUM that was AD malz man. its not as easy as it looks let me assure you. and if anyone wants me to post my build just ask lol. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
T_D played that so much. Too bad you barely get any gold from the jungle so it always ended in failure midgame lol. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On August 26 2012 11:24 BlackPaladin wrote: Iol AD malz is such a funny build. "GO MY MINIONS!!!" :D T_D played that so much. Too bad you barely get any gold from the jungle so it always ended in failure midgame lol. ive never jungled him actually. i did try some bruiser build top games (horrible failure, renekton one game just about made me hang up my ad malz hat), mid (not enough damage to compete with an ap mid early game), and the one that i actually did ok at: ad bot with soraka. it is a funny build, can either be the most awesome thing ever, or make you want to never play again, all depending on how derpy your pets are. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On August 26 2012 11:15 Craton wrote: The DATA is sound. Your CONCLUSIONS are not. You are drawing inferences that the data does not say. It's day one statistics that you're taught not to overreach with your conclusions. Trying to say that a champion is "terrible" because 3 days worth of solo queue has him at a low win rate is completely unsupported. The most you can say is that the majority of games that have been played as Rengar have been losses. Trying to take that any further and say something like "because he's terrible" or "because players are bad" or "because he's easy to counter" IS NOT supported by the data. The data SUGGESTS that Rengar MIGHT be weak, but it also SUGGESTS that people MIGHT be bad at playing him or knowing when to pick him. There is a world of difference here. If the data is sound and he has the lowest win rate any champ has ever had (from what I've seen), that shows to a reasonable doubt he IS bad. Following your logic if in a single day 100 000 people in a city died and the temperature happened to be -50 C it SUGGESTS they might have died from cold but it also SUGGESTS that people might have all just been starving and all died that day. (This sounds like a ridiculous analogy but think about it, it's exactly the same but more extreme, so any previous 50 champs come out and people are fine at playing them and "know" when to pick them but for some crazy reason in the case of this champ they just don't (it's not like he's extremely hard to use)) No, it doesn't SUGGEST they died from the cold, it PROVES they died from the cold. Back to the issue we're talking about, since the evidence it not as strong, it doesn't PROVE he's bad, but it's MORE than enough to come to a reasonable conclusion that he's bad. If anytime there is a weak champ you say "It's too soon, maybe no one knows how to play him yet" strong champ "It's too soon, maybe no one knows how to counter him yet" Then your logic is too profound for me to even attempt to overcome and I concede defeat. | ||
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