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On August 26 2012 11:15 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 09:31 Feartheguru wrote:On August 26 2012 09:25 iCanada wrote:On August 26 2012 09:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 26 2012 09:18 iCanada wrote:On August 26 2012 09:12 Feartheguru wrote:On August 26 2012 07:54 barbsq wrote:On August 26 2012 07:32 Craton wrote:
If you've played any amount of normal and draft games, you'll find your Elo between the two is actually pretty similar.
You can't actually see it any more because fuck Riot (they disabled it after someone made a site / program to show it), but at the time you could look at people and they were generally +/- 150. Those who were further away than that were usually higher in normals than in ranked). like me T.T on another topic.... anyways, i dunno why u guys are all discrediting vaporized for his rengar screen. Sure, I don't necessarily agree with the logic/math behind most of his builds, but you can't just mindlessly declare 5+ wins in a row on rengar as being useless information, regardless of whether it's normals or not. Clearly, he's doing something that's working. Because one the one hand we have samples of thousands of games on lolking that show Rengar is god awful, and on the other you have a low level person who stomped some normal games and believes since he can do it at a low level a person better than him can do the same thing at a high level. Since TL is an intelligent community, they tend to go with the data over anecdotal evidence (and poor anecdotal evidence at that IMO). At the same time it isn't fair to just write off the champion either. what reason would one not write off a champ that's obviously UP until he gets a buff? He's clearly not a high skill cap diamond in the rough like Cass that no one plays right at first. The only argument I've seen is the: "He's been out so soon no one knows how to play him yet" Which I think is pretty funny cause when a strong champ is released: "He's been out so soon no one knows how to counter him yet" You mean like they disregarded Viktor, Irelia, or Shyvana? Its not like playing Irelia is hard either. Being considered OK often leads to people realizing they are good after a while. This applies to whoever made the point about Riven too. There has never been a champ considered god awful at release that did not get buffed. On August 26 2012 09:24 Craton wrote:On August 26 2012 09:12 Feartheguru wrote:On August 26 2012 07:54 barbsq wrote:On August 26 2012 07:32 Craton wrote:
If you've played any amount of normal and draft games, you'll find your Elo between the two is actually pretty similar.
You can't actually see it any more because fuck Riot (they disabled it after someone made a site / program to show it), but at the time you could look at people and they were generally +/- 150. Those who were further away than that were usually higher in normals than in ranked). like me T.T on another topic.... anyways, i dunno why u guys are all discrediting vaporized for his rengar screen. Sure, I don't necessarily agree with the logic/math behind most of his builds, but you can't just mindlessly declare 5+ wins in a row on rengar as being useless information, regardless of whether it's normals or not. Clearly, he's doing something that's working. Because on the one hand we have samples of thousands of games on lolking that show Rengar is god awful, and on the other you have a low level person who stomped some normal games and believes since he can do it at a low level a person better than him can do the same thing at a high level. Since TL is an intelligent community, they tend to go with the data over anecdotal evidence (and poor anecdotal evidence at that IMO). No, you don't. Stop drawing conclusions that aren't supported by the data. Yes, I do. A few thousand random samples is completely sound data. The DATA is sound. Your CONCLUSIONS are not. You are drawing inferences that the data does not say. It's day one statistics that you're taught not to overreach with your conclusions. Trying to say that a champion is "terrible" because 3 days worth of solo queue has him at a low win rate is completely unsupported. The most you can say is that the majority of games that have been played as Rengar have been losses. Trying to take that any further and say something like "because he's terrible" or "because players are bad" or "because he's easy to counter" IS NOT supported by the data. The data SUGGESTS that Rengar MIGHT be weak, but it also SUGGESTS that people MIGHT be bad at playing him or knowing when to pick him. There is a world of difference here.
What you are saying is true, but I can't fathom how he could be hard to play.... by any measure. No skillshot, self-sustain, defense steroid, attack steroid, CC, gap closer, and stealth.... seems like another Xin to me to be honest.
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he seems pretty complicated from reading his lol wiki
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On August 26 2012 11:33 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 11:24 BlackPaladin wrote:
Iol AD malz is such a funny build. "GO MY MINIONS!!!" :D
T_D played that so much. Too bad you barely get any gold from the jungle so it always ended in failure midgame lol. ive never jungled him actually. i did try some bruiser build top games (horrible failure, renekton one game just about made me hang up my ad malz hat), mid (not enough damage to compete with an ap mid early game), and the one that i actually did ok at: ad bot with soraka. it is a funny build, can either be the most awesome thing ever, or make you want to never play again, all depending on how derpy your pets are.
It's just hilarious to put e on someone and watch your little voidling do 100000 damage to them lol. Nobody expects the terrible terrible damage. Dustin Browder would be proud.
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On August 26 2012 11:43 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 11:33 Vaporized wrote:On August 26 2012 11:24 BlackPaladin wrote:
Iol AD malz is such a funny build. "GO MY MINIONS!!!" :D
T_D played that so much. Too bad you barely get any gold from the jungle so it always ended in failure midgame lol. ive never jungled him actually. i did try some bruiser build top games (horrible failure, renekton one game just about made me hang up my ad malz hat), mid (not enough damage to compete with an ap mid early game), and the one that i actually did ok at: ad bot with soraka. it is a funny build, can either be the most awesome thing ever, or make you want to never play again, all depending on how derpy your pets are. It's just hilarious to put e on someone and watch your little voidling do 100000 damage to them lol. Nobody expects the terrible terrible damage. Dustin Browder would be proud.
He actually got a huge buff, now if you autoattack them the voidlings also attk them maybe 50% of the time.
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On August 26 2012 11:44 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 11:43 BlackPaladin wrote:On August 26 2012 11:33 Vaporized wrote:On August 26 2012 11:24 BlackPaladin wrote:
Iol AD malz is such a funny build. "GO MY MINIONS!!!" :D
T_D played that so much. Too bad you barely get any gold from the jungle so it always ended in failure midgame lol. ive never jungled him actually. i did try some bruiser build top games (horrible failure, renekton one game just about made me hang up my ad malz hat), mid (not enough damage to compete with an ap mid early game), and the one that i actually did ok at: ad bot with soraka. it is a funny build, can either be the most awesome thing ever, or make you want to never play again, all depending on how derpy your pets are. It's just hilarious to put e on someone and watch your little voidling do 100000 damage to them lol. Nobody expects the terrible terrible damage. Dustin Browder would be proud. He actually got a huge buff, now if you autoattack them the voidlings also attk them maybe 50% of the time.
Yeah but e has a larger range and can bounce so you can be a lot farther away than in AA range. 
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I never thought I'd run out of mana as malzahar but I did. Played a coop vs ai as ad Malz. He's decently fun.
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On August 26 2012 12:24 obesechicken13 wrote:
I never thought I'd run out of mana as malzahar but I did. Played a coop vs ai as ad Malz. He's decently fun.
Then you get an ult bug and you never want to play him again.
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omg playing with regi o.o
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Looks like people are playing AP Rengar, gotta try that next free week, seems like it might work well with DFG.
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What is all this drama on GD o.O
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On August 26 2012 12:36 wussleeQ wrote:
omg playing with regi o.o
you take up the mantle of carrying his ass
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On August 26 2012 12:51 CeriseCherries wrote:you take up the mantle of carrying his ass
dw its ez i do it all the time
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On August 26 2012 11:38 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 11:15 Craton wrote:On August 26 2012 09:31 Feartheguru wrote:On August 26 2012 09:25 iCanada wrote:On August 26 2012 09:22 Feartheguru wrote:On August 26 2012 09:18 iCanada wrote:On August 26 2012 09:12 Feartheguru wrote:a On August 26 2012 07:54 barbsq wrote:On August 26 2012 07:32 Craton wrote:
If you've played any amount of normal and draft games, you'll find your Elo between the two is actually pretty similar.
You can't actually see it any more because fuck Riot (they disabled it after someone made a site / program to show it), but at the time you could look at people and they were generally +/- 150. Those who were further away than that were usually higher in normals than in ranked). like me T.T on another topic.... anyways, i dunno why u guys are all discrediting vaporized for his rengar screen. Sure, I don't necessarily agree with the logic/math behind most of his builds, but you can't just mindlessly declare 5+ wins in a row on rengar as being useless information, regardless of whether it's normals or not. Clearly, he's doing something that's working. Because one the one hand we have samples of thousands of games on lolking that show Rengar is god awful, and on the other you have a low level person who stomped some normal games and believes since he can do it at a low level a person better than him can do the same thing at a high level. Since TL is an intelligent community, they tend to go with the data over anecdotal evidence (and poor anecdotal evidence at that IMO). At the same time it isn't fair to just write off the champion either. what reason would one not write off a champ that's obviously UP until he gets a buff? He's clearly not a high skill cap diamond in the rough like Cass that no one plays right at first. The only argument I've seen is the: "He's been out so soon no one knows how to play him yet" Which I think is pretty funny cause when a strong champ is released: "He's been out so soon no one knows how to counter him yet" You mean like they disregarded Viktor, Irelia, or Shyvana? Its not like playing Irelia is hard either. Being considered OK often leads to people realizing they are good after a while. This applies to whoever made the point about Riven too. There has never been a champ considered god awful at release that did not get buffed. On August 26 2012 09:24 Craton wrote:On August 26 2012 09:12 Feartheguru wrote:On August 26 2012 07:54 barbsq wrote:On August 26 2012 07:32 Craton wrote:
If you've played any amount of normal and draft games, you'll find your Elo between the two is actually pretty similar.
You can't actually see it any more because fuck Riot (they disabled it after someone made a site / program to show it), but at the time you could look at people and they were generally +/- 150. Those who were further away than that were usually higher in normals than in ranked). like me T.T on another topic.... anyways, i dunno why u guys are all discrediting vaporized for his rengar screen. Sure, I don't necessarily agree with the logic/math behind most of his builds, but you can't just mindlessly declare 5+ wins in a row on rengar as being useless information, regardless of whether it's normals or not. Clearly, he's doing something that's working. Because on the one hand we have samples of thousands of games on lolking that show Rengar is god awful, and on the other you have a low level person who stomped some normal games and believes since he can do it at a low level a person better than him can do the same thing at a high level. Since TL is an intelligent community, they tend to go with the data over anecdotal evidence (and poor anecdotal evidence at that IMO). No, you don't. Stop drawing conclusions that aren't supported by the data. Yes, I do. A few thousand random samples is completely sound data. The DATA is sound. Your CONCLUSIONS are not. You are drawing inferences that the data does not say. It's day one statistics that you're taught not to overreach with your conclusions. Trying to say that a champion is "terrible" because 3 days worth of solo queue has him at a low win rate is completely unsupported. The most you can say is that the majority of games that have been played as Rengar have been losses. Trying to take that any further and say something like "because he's terrible" or "because players are bad" or "because he's easy to counter" IS NOT supported by the data. The data SUGGESTS that Rengar MIGHT be weak, but it also SUGGESTS that people MIGHT be bad at playing him or knowing when to pick him. There is a world of difference here. What you are saying is true, but I can't fathom how he could be hard to play.... by any measure. No skillshot, self-sustain, defense steroid, attack steroid, CC, gap closer, and stealth.... seems like another Xin to me to be honest.
Except Xin's only choice at the basic level is when to press E and what to E on. Rengar is different. His ult isn't instant so he has to anticipate the action as best he can and he's less able to initiate. He has to choose between a ton of defense (emp W) and virtually all his offense (emp Q). He doesn't stick as well as Xin because he can only ult once a fight and has less CC. He also can't just walk up to a squishy with E alone or he'll get CCed by support while Xin can E a squishy and then ult the support away.
I mean you're absolutely right that he's not mechanically intensive but I think I'm not stretching the truth when I say that Xin's decisions in a normal team fight are less complicated than Rengar's.
On August 26 2012 12:41 Feartheguru wrote:
Looks like people are playing AP Rengar, gotta try that next free week, seems like it might work well with DFG.
It's the only way to get them to max W first in lane.
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managing which skills to use empowered and when to ult isn't really intuitive at all on rengar, your ability usage has pretty huge tradeoffs not only in survivability vs damage vs cc, but also in farming vs ganking. im sure there's a ton of improvement to be made in the decisionmaking and awareness of ferocity stacks of people losing games with him.
but there's still a decent chance he's just a really weak champion
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From my experience, his ulti looks fun on paper, but ends up being mediocre in an actual team fight. Even in ganking its weak.
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On August 26 2012 12:51 CeriseCherries wrote:you take up the mantle of carrying his ass
supported his ass :D
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On August 26 2012 13:24 rapidash88 wrote:
From my experience, his ulti looks fun on paper, but ends up being mediocre in an actual team fight. Even in ganking its weak.
When I played with it, it felt more like a passive than an ultimate. You use it prior to or out of combat because it is too slow to use in a fight. It was far too easy for it to get wasted and feel like it just became a shitty gap closer. It stealths for less time than Twitch's new maxed Q. Just my noob opinions though. I'd personally change it to keep doing something after the destealth, and I wouldn't even care what.
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On August 26 2012 13:24 rapidash88 wrote:
From my experience, his ulti looks fun on paper, but ends up being mediocre in an actual team fight. Even in ganking its weak.
oh man, no. IN GANKING ITS WEAK??? i havent found that to be the case at all. tell your laner to bait a fight, stealth past the enemy ward, and jump on him. ive found exhuast to be particularly good, also.
and to the guy in the post above this one, your ult does do something else. it builds passive stacks for you.
you stealth for 7 sec and get increased movement speed. that is more then enough to get past a ward and jump on someone.
after u hit your ult and you get up to 5 stacks, hit q, and jump on the enemy. the q fires on your leap attack (it counts as an auto). then quickly hit q again for some nice burst before they even knew you were coming.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 26 2012 13:44 Vaporized wrote:
heres a tip: after u hit your ult and you get up to 5 stacks, hit q, and jump on the enemy. the q fires on your next autoattack and leaping counts as an autoattack. then quickly hit q again for some nice burst before they even knew you were coming.
There's really no reason to pre-charge Q, because Q resets your autoattack timer anyway. auto->Q should be only infinitesimally slower than simplying pre-charging Q if you cancel out of the initial autoattack at the perfect time.
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EPT
