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[Patch 1.0.0.145: Rengar] General Discussion - Page 144

Forum Index > LoL General
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h3r1n6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Iceland2039 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 00:57:13
August 26 2012 00:55 GMT
#2861
Rengar might be alright, only played against him a little bit. He could do with a range buff on his E. When I got ganked by one I wondered why he did not use his slow, turns out he was out of range.
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
August 26 2012 00:56 GMT
#2862
i just want to say that shakedrizzle truly is the best lee sin NA
watching him play a game right now where he got camped top lane to 1-5, still managing to carry x_x
also SG Dazzleking best sona ults OP
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
August 26 2012 00:57 GMT
#2863
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
August 26 2012 01:03 GMT
#2864
On August 26 2012 09:57 arb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.


is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>?

i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD"

meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts.

it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Feartheguru
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada1334 Posts
August 26 2012 01:04 GMT
#2865
On August 26 2012 09:48 Alaric wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:31 Feartheguru wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:25 iCanada wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:22 Feartheguru wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:18 iCanada wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:12 Feartheguru wrote:
On August 26 2012 07:54 barbsq wrote:
On August 26 2012 07:32 Craton wrote:
If you've played any amount of normal and draft games, you'll find your Elo between the two is actually pretty similar.

You can't actually see it any more because fuck Riot (they disabled it after someone made a site / program to show it), but at the time you could look at people and they were generally +/- 150. Those who were further away than that were usually higher in normals than in ranked).

like me T.T

on another topic....
anyways, i dunno why u guys are all discrediting vaporized for his rengar screen. Sure, I don't necessarily agree with the logic/math behind most of his builds, but you can't just mindlessly declare 5+ wins in a row on rengar as being useless information, regardless of whether it's normals or not. Clearly, he's doing something that's working.


Because one the one hand we have samples of thousands of games on lolking that show Rengar is god awful, and on the other you have a low level person who stomped some normal games and believes since he can do it at a low level a person better than him can do the same thing at a high level. Since TL is an intelligent community, they tend to go with the data over anecdotal evidence (and poor anecdotal evidence at that IMO).


At the same time it isn't fair to just write off the champion either.


For what reason would one not write off a champ that's obviously UP until he gets a buff? He's clearly not a high skill cap diamond in the rough like Cass that no one plays right at first.

The only argument I've seen is the:
"He's been out so soon no one knows how to play him yet"

Which I think is pretty funny cause when a strong champ is released:
"He's been out so soon no one knows how to counter him yet"


You mean like they disregarded Viktor, Irelia, or Shyvana?

Its not like playing Irelia is hard either.


Being considered OK often leads to people realizing they are good after a while. This applies to whoever made the point about Riven too. There has never been a champ considered god awful at release that did not get buffed.

Consensus has it that it was realized afterwards that Riven didn't need the buffs at all and was fine, people simply had no idea how to build her.


Her nerfs after the hotfixed were extremely light, compared to the heavy hotfix and now she's a balanced champ. What does that tell you? The consensus you were talking about was when she was FOTM that passed, I think she needed the hotfix (except less than she got) and I'm sure a decent portion would agree with me.

Either way, she had a mediocre win rate at release, like 45% (which over thousands of a games is already pretty bad if you think about it), it's nothing like the 37% that we're seeing now.
Don't sweat the petty stuff, don't pet the sweaty stuff.
Ferrose
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States11378 Posts
August 26 2012 01:07 GMT
#2866
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:57 arb wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.


is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>?

i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD"

meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts.

it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh


This isn't even about <x bad build> v <proven pro build> though.

I don't really see what having a low elo has to do with how good your build is. A build produces the same numbers (maybe not results) no matter what level you are playing at.
@113candlemagic Office lady by day, lonely woman at night. | Official lolicon of thread 94273
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 01:07:48
August 26 2012 01:07 GMT
#2867
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:57 arb wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.


is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>?

i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD"

meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts.

it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh

you come off like an angry 15 year old. if you arent then stop acting like one. if you are then i can relate, i was one too a while back. it'll eventually go away.
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
August 26 2012 01:11 GMT
#2868
On August 26 2012 10:04 Feartheguru wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:48 Alaric wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:31 Feartheguru wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:25 iCanada wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:22 Feartheguru wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:18 iCanada wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:12 Feartheguru wrote:
On August 26 2012 07:54 barbsq wrote:
On August 26 2012 07:32 Craton wrote:
If you've played any amount of normal and draft games, you'll find your Elo between the two is actually pretty similar.

You can't actually see it any more because fuck Riot (they disabled it after someone made a site / program to show it), but at the time you could look at people and they were generally +/- 150. Those who were further away than that were usually higher in normals than in ranked).

like me T.T

on another topic....
anyways, i dunno why u guys are all discrediting vaporized for his rengar screen. Sure, I don't necessarily agree with the logic/math behind most of his builds, but you can't just mindlessly declare 5+ wins in a row on rengar as being useless information, regardless of whether it's normals or not. Clearly, he's doing something that's working.


Because one the one hand we have samples of thousands of games on lolking that show Rengar is god awful, and on the other you have a low level person who stomped some normal games and believes since he can do it at a low level a person better than him can do the same thing at a high level. Since TL is an intelligent community, they tend to go with the data over anecdotal evidence (and poor anecdotal evidence at that IMO).


At the same time it isn't fair to just write off the champion either.


For what reason would one not write off a champ that's obviously UP until he gets a buff? He's clearly not a high skill cap diamond in the rough like Cass that no one plays right at first.

The only argument I've seen is the:
"He's been out so soon no one knows how to play him yet"

Which I think is pretty funny cause when a strong champ is released:
"He's been out so soon no one knows how to counter him yet"


You mean like they disregarded Viktor, Irelia, or Shyvana?

Its not like playing Irelia is hard either.


Being considered OK often leads to people realizing they are good after a while. This applies to whoever made the point about Riven too. There has never been a champ considered god awful at release that did not get buffed.

Consensus has it that it was realized afterwards that Riven didn't need the buffs at all and was fine, people simply had no idea how to build her.


Her nerfs after the hotfixed were extremely light, compared to the heavy hotfix and now she's a balanced champ. What does that tell you? The consensus you were talking about was when she was FOTM that passed, I think she needed the hotfix (except less than she got) and I'm sure a decent portion would agree with me.

Either way, she had a mediocre win rate at release, like 45% (which over thousands of a games is already pretty bad if you think about it), it's nothing like the 37% that we're seeing now.

can u link where u get winrate numbers?
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
JonnyLaw
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3482 Posts
August 26 2012 01:14 GMT
#2869
http://www.lolking.net/champions/rengar#statistics

BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
August 26 2012 01:15 GMT
#2870
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:57 arb wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.


is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>?

i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD"

meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts.

it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh


This is how I feel too. YO MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION. Alright, and your opinion doesn't mean that it's the optimal build. Generally good players like yango, monte, cratonz, smash, shake, etc want to find the BEST build for a champion, not the okay-build-that-works-for-me-build and so discuss it, disagree with certain parts of one build and why they find another part better, etc.

Smash didn't find his nunu build by going "YO MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION," he analyzed what the fuck he needed and went "okay maybe this will work" and had real logical arguments behind his item choices other than "THIS PD MAKES ME MOVE SO FAST LOLOLOL!!!" -_-
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
August 26 2012 01:15 GMT
#2871
On August 26 2012 10:14 JonnyLaw wrote:
http://www.lolking.net/champions/rengar#statistics


cool, ty
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Flakes
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States3125 Posts
August 26 2012 01:17 GMT
#2872
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:57 arb wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.


is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>?

i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD"

meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts.

it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh

gtr so bitter
don't go all Brees on us
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
August 26 2012 01:20 GMT
#2873
Okay from now on I never ever pick irelia without banning darius. Hardest counter ever.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
August 26 2012 01:24 GMT
#2874
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 09:57 arb wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.


is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>?

i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD"

meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts.

it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh

Then you dicuss it with them and give reasons why it was bad, not just post stupid shit like I BET U BUILD DEATHCAP ON SHYVANA HUH. Going in and beating someone with worse mechanics than you doesn't prove youre right. Who gives a fuck about ELO? He could be 1200 and post the same build Chaox does and it'd still be just as right. At the same time a D player telling you the only go to pvp build on bluestorm is 2gate, is just as right as an A- player telling you the same thing
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
August 26 2012 01:25 GMT
#2875
On August 26 2012 10:07 Ferrose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:57 arb wrote:
On August 26 2012 09:46 gtrsrs wrote:
i would love to take this to the TL grudge match thread but i shut down the last guy so hard that it looked like a personal attack more than shutting up a bad and the thread had to be closed

They arent really grudge matches bashing on lower ELO'd players. It's like if i challenged a D player to a grudge matchi n Broodwar and shit on him, its trying to inflate your EPeen more or less.


is that not something you would do, if the D player was telling you that <x bad build> is better than <proven build by Flash or Boxer>?

i'm not the kind of person that just wants to shit on bads, but i get so frustrated with that martyr personality that crops up on TL every so often. it's princexizor all over again, "i'm going to post this build without posting my elo, so people that come to TL to find quality guides will think it has some validity, and when someone calls me out on it, i will martyr myself HEY MAN IT'S JUST MY OPINION DON'T HATE ON MY BUILD"

meanwhile, real quality posters who actually understand how the game works, like smash, shake, yango, montegomery, etc etc etc, have no way to differentiate their ACTUAL quality posts.

it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh


This isn't even about <x bad build> v <proven pro build> though.

I don't really see what having a low elo has to do with how good your build is. A build produces the same numbers (maybe not results) no matter what level you are playing at.


That's not really true. For example, you can 4gate in sc2 to get to gold without much trouble. You'll win most games handily doing that. You could say that it's a good build that works in some instances. But at some point you'll find that you can't simply 4gate because eventually the players get good enough to hold off the push, and counter you. Then you'll end up losing most games against players who have the skill to do that. In LoL when you get to higher elo you begin to need to play differently too. It's the same theory.Things that work in lower elo don't work higher up when people are playing competitively and have some form of skill.

Even take Shake's lee sin videos. He pulls off some crazy clutch plays sometimes, something you rarely see in lower elo. In lower elo, if they even have the mechanics to do such a thing, they don't have other qualities, like map awareness, or have poor laning, etc. Builds, play, etc. They're all dependent on your skill and your opponents skill. To say that low elo can equate to high elo is just not a correct assumption, and is the thought of someone who does not understand general game mechanics and how skill applies to it.
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
August 26 2012 01:26 GMT
#2876
Alright, everyone shut the fuck up. Enough with the ad hominem attacks.

Vaporized - I appreciate that you're trying to make Rengar work. I think it's awesome (and I can relate coming from a Viktor background). But stop being a martyr and understand that people will be skeptical of you. Take Rengar into ranked, get against opponents who know what they're doing. If you continue to do well with Rengar, then awesome! let us know!

Gtr - stop being a dick

@everyone - Rengar is brand new. Being a bruiser, I would assume it will take people a bit longer to learn than someone like Zyra. I've been trashed by a few, and I've destroyed a few. But there has not been enough time for people to figure him out to instantly say "this champ is shit, buff now". I would rather Riot give him some time than to knee jerk a buff.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
thenexusp
Profile Joined May 2009
United States3721 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-26 01:30:17
August 26 2012 01:28 GMT
#2877
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh

SC2 strategy has a group of quality posters whose posts show up in darker blue, can that be extended to other forums?

Edit: also if froggen wasn't so damn good we'd be shitting on his anivia builds all the time lol. I guess the moral is get better and people will take you serious no matter what you do
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
August 26 2012 01:29 GMT
#2878
On August 26 2012 10:26 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Alright, everyone shut the fuck up. Enough with the ad hominem attacks.

Vaporized - I appreciate that you're trying to make Rengar work. I think it's awesome (and I can relate coming from a Viktor background). But stop being a martyr and understand that people will be skeptical of you. Take Rengar into ranked, get against opponents who know what they're doing. If you continue to do well with Rengar, then awesome! let us know!

Gtr - stop being a dick

@everyone - Rengar is brand new. Being a bruiser, I would assume it will take people a bit longer to learn than someone like Zyra. I've been trashed by a few, and I've destroyed a few. But there has not been enough time for people to figure him out to instantly say "this champ is shit, buff now". I would rather Riot give him some time than to knee jerk a buff.


Listen to this guy. I approve of this message.

The thick-headedness and abrasiveness needs to stop.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
August 26 2012 01:30 GMT
#2879
On August 26 2012 10:28 thenexusp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2012 10:03 gtrsrs wrote:
it's just a vicious cycle and i wish there was a quality poster and poor poster icon for TL tbh

SC2 strategy has a group of quality posters whose posts show up in darker blue, can that be extended to other forums?


Do we really not know who the quality posters are that we need to highlight them? Our subforum isn't as big as SC2's.

ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
August 26 2012 01:32 GMT
#2880
im always for people who go against the popular meta even if it looks wrong
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