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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On August 14 2012 23:28 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 23:27 Chexx wrote:On August 14 2012 23:22 Slayer91 wrote:
Put it this way the only way to beat sona is by bursting her (including ganks) so unless you never ever lose lane you should be buying hp. Till now I never lost lane as Sona. I now prioritize wards > gold/5 it allows a much safer lane and helps you to win the lane. Thats the most important part. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/kr/2174296#history can look my items up. I think I always had enough hp even if I got grabbed etc. btw if somebody wants to duo queue with me just message me  I really like playing support. If you've never lost a lane as sona i don't see how you can even make this argument you need to play sona games until you lose a lane.. Unless you see sona win every single lane in competitive play that is. Personally I think locket is horrible unless you buy it for early hp regen for like a cheesey 20 min push strat i would always save for randuins over locket because lategame randuins can literally win teamfights and locket is basically useless. AD carries tend to see supports as squishy and being able to run over and burst+randunis them and then run away cripples their damage output haha.
which argument do you mean? I think Sona is underrated in the competitive scene thats why I was very happy to see that iG played her in nearly everygame against clg.
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United States37500 Posts
Dead horse is dead.
Effective immediately, I will warn the first person who brings up GP10 discussion in GD. I swear we just had this run around 24 hours, when I first checked TL in the morning yesterday. LO AND BEHOLD, HERE IT IS AGAIN TODAY.
Warning is simply a formality, because people really need to move on to new things to talk about. Even the Diana talk prior to "is HoG popular?!" was more interesting.
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The argument that you've never lost a lane being bursted full to zero therefore buying hp on sona is bad and won't save you (wtf?)
And I don't wish to argue about HoG merely the philo first trend not as gp10 but regen versus hp on sona.
I don't even know why sona lost popularity. She got a slight nerf? Or was it the blitz/leona trends. Gosu pepper said he'd win every game if they didn't ban sona and he did right?
And I think philo first might be better than hp on the tanky supports ali/blitz/taric/nunu because harassment is a bigger problem than getting bursted.
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On August 14 2012 23:33 NeoIllusions wrote:
Dead horse is dead.
Effective immediately, I will warn the first person who brings up GP10 discussion in GD. I swear we just had this run around 24 hours, when I first checked TL in the morning yesterday. LO AND BEHOLD, HERE IT IS AGAIN TODAY.
Warning is simply a formality, because people really need to move on to new things to talk about. Even the Diana talk prior to "is HoG popular?!" was more interesting.
I wasn't arguing for gp10, i was saying i prefer the health boost over regen. But ok sir, i will shut my mouth 
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I admittedly am not that good at sona. But most of my deaths on her in the laning phase have a lot more to do with "Shit, I shouldnt be standing there." and a lot less to do with "If only I had some more health."
She's actually surprisingly hard to play well - you don't have great movespeed and you want to harass. Maybe I'll have an easier time if I pick up earlier boots?
Maybe some of those early forced engagements wouldn't be so bad if I did rush an early ruby crystal item (who cares what kind of item it is, that's not the point.) because sona's early damage is pretty strong, so maybe I could turn a 'we catch sona' into a 'and then the Sona+AD carry killed us because we stunned sona instead of the AD'? Is that what you're suggesting?
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On August 14 2012 23:33 Slayer91 wrote:
The argument that you've never lost a lane being bursted full to zero therefore buying hp on sona is bad and won't save you (wtf?)
And I don't wish to argue about HoG merely the philo first trend not as gp10 but regen versus hp on sona.
I don't even know why sona lost popularity. She got a slight nerf? Or was it the blitz/leona trends. Gosu pepper said he'd win every game if they didn't ban sona and he did right?
woot I never said that buying hp is bad on Sona. If you look at my Items there are a lot of hp items. I think it is the best option you got as a more squishy support.
I just think that you can get away with buying philo first before your first ruby crystal. After that I buy most of the time boots 1 before my first ruby if I think I will die because of burst then ruby before boots.
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On to a more interesting topic: with the new trend of 2v1 1v2 lanes that only CLG used to do you guys think chogath is going to come back to his glory days? Rupture got a nice buff and he's one of the best 2v1's out there. Also going to mean soraka is going to see less popularity.
In fact if the good 1v2'er strat comes in than we'd actually come full circle to the old old old NA meta of tank bot, with roam support, AD top and AP mid.
As for your sona build, I agree that shurelyas and philo and aegis are great, I just feel like the fast ruby crystal is pretty important on sona because you are targetted for ganks and bursting because of how annoying you are if you're let to free roam bot lane.
Mundo has been my most succesful 1v2'er because of his high regen and long range cleaver farming he can farm like ezrael with blue from max range while being tanky and hard to dive. He might be a sleeper in that meta too.
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Don't we have a whole subforum now to open a "discuss GP10 here thread and gtfo of GD".
I'm curious to see when all this lane-swapping and top/bot shenanigans is going to fall off a bit in the pro-scene. TSM does it plain better than everyone else and have been winning a ton with it but it really seems to be showing which pro-teams just don't try.
Irelia lanes pretty well vs Vlad. Vlad is an awesome 1v2 farmer, Irelia can't do it at all. Vlad ult is still useful without much farm, Irelia is stone blank. So what should we do with our Irelia vs Vlad lane? I know! send her bot! then wonder why both our lanes are getting shit on and we lose all the dragons and have a 10k deficit at 20 mins.
I know theres more to it than that but I swear some pro's are straight up retarded and don't think at all about what they're doing. Just herpa derp TSM did it so lets try and be baylife. It's like following the cool kids around in high school.
/uninformedrant
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I can't see it dying. You can let them counterpick your bot lane and top lane and pick for late game and then swap lanes assuming both your lanes you picked are pretty good at 1v2 and 2v1 respectively.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
Yeah I observered this, too. Sometimes people swap lanes but it does not make any sense because the TOP guy cant even farm against 1vs2.
For doing well in a lane against 2 champions you either need a long range farm like cleaver, kennen q ezreal or something that kills a lot of creeps fast at your tower.
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On August 14 2012 23:44 TheLink wrote:
Don't we have a whole subforum now to open a "discuss GP10 here thread and gtfo of GD".
I'm curious to see when all this lane-swapping and top/bot shenanigans is going to fall off a bit in the pro-scene. TSM does it plain better than everyone else and have been winning a ton with it but it really seems to be showing which pro-teams just don't try.
Irelia lanes pretty well vs Vlad. Vlad is an awesome 1v2 farmer, Irelia can't do it at all. Vlad ult is still useful without much farm, Irelia is stone blank. So what should we do with our Irelia vs Vlad lane? I know! send her bot! then wonder why both our lanes are getting shit on and we lose all the dragons and have a 10k deficit at 20 mins.
I know theres more to it than that but I swear some pro's are straight up retarded and don't think at all about what they're doing. Just herpa derp TSM did it so lets try and be baylife. It's like following the cool kids around in high school.
/uninformedrant
If by "TSM" you meant to say "Azubu Blaze"
Edit: We (TL B) discovered that Viktor has some merit against this strat. We encountered a team twice in arranged 5s who used it (I think Gandhi said it was guys Ehomda plays with?), and I played Viktor against it both times. The strat really pushes a low econ game. All Viktor needs to shut down a push is 2k gold (2 dring + death augment). They kept trying to 5 man push mid, but as long as I had at least a couple of my teammates with me, they couldn't dive, and our AD carry (jcc) could farm all the while.
Granted, there were definite misplays on their part (but also ours). I do like the Viktor pick against it though, although I may be biased.
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Speaking of 1v2 lanes, why does it always have to be the support sticking with the AD? Ezreal alone could, maybe not demolish bot lane, but farm safely and has his own escape if he plays smart. What's preventing the Support from just roaming from lane to lane - not necessarily to gank - but to give advantages. Soraka leaves Cait or Ezreal bot to farm passively, and suddenly sticks around mid to give a huge advantage via infinite mana and good healing.
Aside from Dragon control, I don't really see a reason that a support who isn't even getting to kill minions anyway needs to sit in one spot. They'll be underleveled from not leeching exp, sure, but gives more map presence and a wider warding zone rather than just the 3-4 normal spots in bot river.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
I think Mordekaiser with his cone attack when he got some AP can clear a wave really fast and you cant damage the tower. Works pretty well. Shuts down pressure really easy. Heroes like him are pretty good at this.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 14 2012 23:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:
If by "TSM" you meant to say "Azubu Blaze"
Edit: We (TL B) discovered that Viktor has some merit against this strat. We encountered a team twice in arranged 5s who used it (I think Gandhi said it was guys Ehomda plays with?), and I played Viktor against it both times. The strat really pushes a low econ game. All Viktor needs to shut down a push is 2k gold (2 dring + death augment). They kept trying to 5 man push mid, but as long as I had at least a couple of my teammates with me, they couldn't dive, and our AD carry (jcc) could farm all the while.
Granted, there were definite misplays on their part (but also ours). I do like the Viktor pick against it though, although I may be biased.
I can see the appeal of Viktor in that scenario. A low-econ game emphasizes cost-efficient but not necessarily slot-efficient items, and Viktor's Hex Core fits that description very well.
On August 15 2012 00:01 Chexx wrote:
I think Mordekaiser with his cone attack when he got some AP can clear a wave really fast and you cant damage the tower. Works pretty well. Shuts down pressure really easy. Heroes like him are pretty good at this.
Not good enough.
"With some AP" isn't a requirement you want in a 1v2 laner because you have to expect that they'll be zoned from the creep wave at level 1 and won't hit level 2 or 3 until the creep wave hits their tower. You have to expect that they'll lose a lot of that first big wave to tower, so they have to be able to clear waves off tower at level 4 or 5 with little to no itemized damage stats.
This is why Galio and Cho'Gath are appealing 1v2 options because they have 2 damaging nukes, that can be paired to clear creeps off towers.
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On August 15 2012 00:01 Chexx wrote:
I think Mordekaiser with his cone attack when he got some AP can clear a wave really fast and you cant damage the tower. Works pretty well. Shuts down pressure really easy. Heroes like him are pretty good at this.
Mordekaiser isn't going to clear well/safely when there are five opponents mid. The power of Viktor is that he can clear the wave with very little gold invested, and has a tool which makes diving him exceptionally scary. The only comparable option is Veigar, and only if he maxes W first. Maybe Anivia with max Q could work, but in general there are very few AP carries with both economical clearing power and zone control.
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I think they need to revisit Zilean vs the Korean strategy.
Low econ game works great for Zilean since he only has double bomb but it clears waves at an early point. And he brings a lot of utility that doesnt scale with farm.
(also experience passive op in early groupings)
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Wouldn't Anivia do just as well? She can keep people off turrets indefinitely with her ulti and wall. All she needs is Chalice and Anivia can turtle forever.
And I honestly think Cho'gath will make a resurgence sometime. I remember HSGG saying that the #1 reason why he no longer plays Cho is because of the unreliability of his abilities. Now that they've removed that, Cho's probably a better pick now. Especially considering how hard it is to push against a Cho.
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On August 14 2012 23:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 23:44 TheLink wrote:
Don't we have a whole subforum now to open a "discuss GP10 here thread and gtfo of GD".
I'm curious to see when all this lane-swapping and top/bot shenanigans is going to fall off a bit in the pro-scene. TSM does it plain better than everyone else and have been winning a ton with it but it really seems to be showing which pro-teams just don't try.
Irelia lanes pretty well vs Vlad. Vlad is an awesome 1v2 farmer, Irelia can't do it at all. Vlad ult is still useful without much farm, Irelia is stone blank. So what should we do with our Irelia vs Vlad lane? I know! send her bot! then wonder why both our lanes are getting shit on and we lose all the dragons and have a 10k deficit at 20 mins.
I know theres more to it than that but I swear some pro's are straight up retarded and don't think at all about what they're doing. Just herpa derp TSM did it so lets try and be baylife. It's like following the cool kids around in high school.
/uninformedrant If by "TSM" you meant to say "Azubu Blaze" Edit: We (TL B) discovered that Viktor has some merit against this strat. We encountered a team twice in arranged 5s who used it (I think Gandhi said it was guys Ehomda plays with?), and I played Viktor against it both times. The strat really pushes a low econ game. All Viktor needs to shut down a push is 2k gold (2 dring + death augment). They kept trying to 5 man push mid, but as long as I had at least a couple of my teammates with me, they couldn't dive, and our AD carry (jcc) could farm all the while. Granted, there were definite misplays on their part (but also ours). I do like the Viktor pick against it though, although I may be biased.
If talking about the 1v2 scenario, CLG has been doing that a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Infact it's pretty much known when they pick Chogath or Yorick or something what they're going to do.
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On August 15 2012 00:11 Bladeorade wrote:
I think they need to revisit Zilean vs the Korean strategy.
I wish people would elaborate more sometimes? The korean strat being 2v1 lanes? Why is zilean such a good champ vs this?
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EPT
