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On August 15 2012 02:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 23:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 14 2012 23:44 TheLink wrote:
Don't we have a whole subforum now to open a "discuss GP10 here thread and gtfo of GD".
I'm curious to see when all this lane-swapping and top/bot shenanigans is going to fall off a bit in the pro-scene. TSM does it plain better than everyone else and have been winning a ton with it but it really seems to be showing which pro-teams just don't try.
Irelia lanes pretty well vs Vlad. Vlad is an awesome 1v2 farmer, Irelia can't do it at all. Vlad ult is still useful without much farm, Irelia is stone blank. So what should we do with our Irelia vs Vlad lane? I know! send her bot! then wonder why both our lanes are getting shit on and we lose all the dragons and have a 10k deficit at 20 mins.
I know theres more to it than that but I swear some pro's are straight up retarded and don't think at all about what they're doing. Just herpa derp TSM did it so lets try and be baylife. It's like following the cool kids around in high school.
/uninformedrant If by "TSM" you meant to say "Azubu Blaze" Edit: We (TL B) discovered that Viktor has some merit against this strat. We encountered a team twice in arranged 5s who used it (I think Gandhi said it was guys Ehomda plays with?), and I played Viktor against it both times. The strat really pushes a low econ game. All Viktor needs to shut down a push is 2k gold (2 dring + death augment). They kept trying to 5 man push mid, but as long as I had at least a couple of my teammates with me, they couldn't dive, and our AD carry (jcc) could farm all the while. Granted, there were definite misplays on their part (but also ours). I do like the Viktor pick against it though, although I may be biased. You could say the same for a lot of AP with clearing power, I don't think it's specific to viktor.... You could essentially do the same thing with a morgana....
Nope. not even close. Only really viktor, anivia, or maybe TF if he has a good amount of AP can clear the wave before they start poking the tower. edit: also AP janna, probably a couple others i missed
Morgana would have to let the wave bunch up on the tower and then pool it while the enemy gets free hits on the tower
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Eh, I feel that Kat jungle's gonna be pretty good but not better than the current top junglers.
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On August 15 2012 03:12 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
Kat jungle looks to be absolutely terrifying. Thank god she has no cc. Since I'm not on the PBE (and also at work), I'm just trying to imagine what her strengths/weaknesses are compared to Diana. Obviously manaless is a plus, and being able to use Shunpo as an escape (and also have it before 6) is very nice. But lacking the shield or any other defense may make her more dangerous to jungle until you get some AP for clearing or at least Spellvamp for sustain.
Apparently post 4 Q-W is 1 entirely cleared camp. So clearing shouldn't get you too low.
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On August 15 2012 03:28 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:12 Requizen wrote:On August 15 2012 03:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
Kat jungle looks to be absolutely terrifying. Thank god she has no cc. Since I'm not on the PBE (and also at work), I'm just trying to imagine what her strengths/weaknesses are compared to Diana. Obviously manaless is a plus, and being able to use Shunpo as an escape (and also have it before 6) is very nice. But lacking the shield or any other defense may make her more dangerous to jungle until you get some AP for clearing or at least Spellvamp for sustain. Apparently post 4 Q-W is 1 entirely cleared camp. So clearing shouldn't get you too low.
Doubt she'll be very good gank wise unless the lane you're ganking has some sort of hard CC.
Farming should be alright though
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Shunpo+red should be good. Without red, probs not.
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Remember, she also now has a speed boost if you hit her new W, so her sticking power isn't too bad. Slowing for your teammate is another issue, though.
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On August 15 2012 03:12 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:07 WaveofShadow wrote:
Kat jungle looks to be absolutely terrifying. Thank god she has no cc. Since I'm not on the PBE (and also at work), I'm just trying to imagine what her strengths/weaknesses are compared to Diana. Obviously manaless is a plus, and being able to use Shunpo as an escape (and also have it before 6) is very nice. But lacking the shield or any other defense may make her more dangerous to jungle until you get some AP for clearing or at least Spellvamp for sustain.
She has potential, but I haven't worked out her sustain issues or item/skill build/playstyle yet. The biggest looming issue is, "What is jungle Katarina's role mid/late game?" The answer to that might come from figuring out workable item/skill builds, or workable item/skill builds might come from figuring out the answer to that.
The two things I know right now are W first, and Rageblade is a great item (you can maintain its stacks indefinitely with W). Incidentally, W scales off both AP and AD (0.3 and 0.6 respectively).
Also, don't underestimate the power of a gap closer combined with an AoE damage speed boost you can cast without having to stop moving.
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Why Rageblade over something like Revolver/Wota or Rylai though? I was under the impression (and this could be wrong) that she did tanky dps stuff like WotA/Rylai/DC as she is now.
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wota is only really a tanky dps thing if you have range
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On August 15 2012 04:16 UniversalSnip wrote:
wota is only really a tanky dps thing if you have range
It's a good tanky dps item thing to complement your tanky dps resistance items.
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Aren't you suppose to build gunblade on kat? once you get bilgewater, should be able to gank fine w. the slow active.
As far as rageblade goes, it's a bad item choice on Kat. It maybe cost effective on her, but it's not slot efficient. Also any powercurve gained in rageblade isn't significant enough to justify the cost efficiency. Meaning, the power curve given by a normal item build progression (gunblade/dc/rylais w.e) is close enough to rageblade, that the benefits of a "strong" early powercurve of rageblade, really isn't worth it.
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Like I said, I never have played or researched her. I assumed WotA because I see it on other manaless AP semi-tanky champs like Rumble/Kennen/Vlad.
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On August 15 2012 04:33 Requizen wrote:
Like I said, I never have played or researched her. I assumed WotA because I see it on other manaless AP semi-tanky champs like Rumble/Kennen/Vlad.
Old Kat, I got WotA. New kat, that's supposedly "jungle kat", looks like bilgewater is going to be pretty core on her.
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On August 15 2012 04:04 Requizen wrote:
Why Rageblade over something like Revolver/Wota or Rylai though? I was under the impression (and this could be wrong) that she did tanky dps stuff like WotA/Rylai/DC as she is now.
Cost efficiency. Rageblade gives ~3800g in stats and costs only 2235g.
I'd love to build Rylai's on jungle Katarina, but it's 3105g and a lot of that is invested in the slow. Deathcap is simply too expensive for a jungler who intends to spend a lot of time in melee range. WotA is at least efficient across the team, but it's not very good for Kat personally because of the AoE penalty on Spell Vamp.
That said don't take Rageblade as gospel. All I noted is that it's a good item on Kat, but that doesn't mean she should build it in the jungle. I have plenty of thoughts floating around but until I have the chance to really test all this out (stupid custom game restrictions) I can't really nail them down or make solid recommendations.
On August 15 2012 04:30 wei2coolman wrote:
Aren't you suppose to build gunblade on kat? once you get bilgewater, should be able to gank fine w. the slow active.
As far as rageblade goes, it's a bad item choice on Kat. It maybe cost effective on her, but it's not slot efficient. Also any powercurve gained in rageblade isn't significant enough to justify the cost efficiency. Meaning, the power curve given by a normal item build progression (gunblade/dc/rylais w.e) is close enough to rageblade, that the benefits of a "strong" early powercurve of rageblade, really isn't worth it.
Slot-efficiency isn't a huge concern for a jungler, which is what I'm discussing. A Gunblade -> DC -> Rylai's progression on a jungler isn't realistic.
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Since when are slot-mediocre items bad? Rageblade is cheap enough to build from the jungle, you can maintain the stacks, and it's an awful lot of stats, even though the AS is mostly only useful for jungle clearing I guess.
I still get it on Skarner (either rageblade or wit's end, based on enemy comp) - it's a good item for the few champs that can use everything it offers + not be bothered by stacking it up before a fight starts.
I like the bilgewater idea, haha. You can probably also run smite exhaust since you have a free flash anyway (as long as you have a ward/target)
Still, I feel like Kat's gonna be in an awfully weird spot after the rework. It'll take some figuring out.
A lot of the spellvamp Kat got before was from Shunpo, which got damage nerfed (gunblade shunpo gives full spellvamp + an auto with the lifesteal component) and a modicrum of sustain from Qing piles of minions in lane (WQ was alright, but without the W, it wasn't very much - like ~40 health.). I'm not convinced spellvamp is THAT great on her - certainly not as a first item.
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jungle leona viable, great ganks poor clear. Sejuani very good jungler overall.
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I think gunblade is going to be core on Kat in jungle, merely because of the slow active.
As far as rageblade goes, if you build it after gunblade, it's going to feel fairly underwhelming, and I could definitely see people having a hard time keeping up into midgame. Slot efficiency isnt' an issue on AD bruisers, because of the huge variety of costs/powercurve issues from items. Most AP items offer nice build progression, along with slot efficiency. Not to mention, most AP's fall heavily behind in lategame, so any detriments you take due to slot efficiencies hit you even harder during later progression into the game.
Abyssal is probably a more realistic goal after gunblade. or DFG.
(also, rylais blows on kat).
I think jungle kat is going to be pretty snowball reliant, there's no way for her to really function if she doesn't have the appropriate amount of farm/gold....
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Rylais doesn't exactly blow on Kat, it turns your shunpo into a pretty good slow when you're going all-in on someone. Thing is, you usually want damage more, so that they actually DIE when you allin them, and gunblade slow is better anyway. Rylai was standard on Kat for a LONG time before her Ult was tweaked to use both AD and AP instead of whichever stat was higher.
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On August 15 2012 04:47 wei2coolman wrote:
I think gunblade is going to be core on Kat in jungle, merely because of the slow active.
As far as rageblade goes, if you build it after gunblade, it's going to feel fairly underwhelming, and I could definitely see people having a hard time keeping up into midgame.
Abyssal is probably a more realistic goal after gunblade.
(also, rylais blows on kat).
I think jungle kat is going to be pretty snowball reliant, there's no way for her to really function if she doesn't have the appropriate amount of farm/gold....
It's a fun exercise though, the thread just kind of got me thinking. We've talked a lot of how good manaless champs are, and her gap closer and speed boost are things junglers want for ganking, while 2 AoE abilities are good for clearing. She strikes me kind of like Jax (as people have said), where she will have good amounts of everything (clear, ganks, snowball), but not really excel in any one place. Plus, she can't really fit the meta of tanky-CC jungler, something that Diana has issues with as well.
She should be fun in solo queue though, if you can convince people that jungle Kat isn't a troll pick after the rework.
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I don't know if Riot is purposefully trying to make Kat viable in jungle in order to add AP's into jungle lists, or they happened to create the kit that makes jungling viable~, but if they are, they are doing it wrong.
The problem with current AP's, is that they require farm, and a lot of it. Jungle doesn't offer that kind of farm, so more often than not, they're usually underwhelming. 2 main approaches they can do with it, a) make it so the AP has a terrible lane kit, but amazing ratios, so you only need a small amount of AP to be effective (they did this once, amumu, and it turned out well for the most part). or b)have really nice base damage on the ability with poor AP ratios. I really haven't seen b) executed, something that i do want to see though
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EPT
