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On August 11 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:36 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:18 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 01:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
Bonetooth Necklace is just a little bit ridiculous as an item. Insanely snowbally, only loses one stack on death. More cost effective than most basic attack items extremely quickly.
It's as cost-effective as a B.F. Sword at level 3-4. By level 18 you have a mix of valuable stats most of which have no easily calculable gold value. If you get 18 trophies, which is close to inevitable as a game goes on, you simply become a monster. I dunno, 18 trophies pretty hard to get, unless game goes to 40minutes or longer. I'd say realistically probably 8-10 is most likely. That's what I meant when I said, "as a game goes on". If a game goes long you're guaranteed 18 stacks unless you're dying so fast in teamfights that you get no assists or getting caught all the time. It's not like Mejai's where if you hit 20 and die you may never hit 20 again. Yeah. I'm fine with the item. It's better than being underpowered like viktor's item. It's slot AND cost efficient. They'll probably have to fix progression of stacks though, but that's something that's easily patchable.
*facepalm*
You realize Viktor's Death augment is one of, if not THE most cost effective early-early late game AP item, right?
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On August 11 2012 02:47 WaveofShadow wrote:
What I'm wondering is, if Riot is going to start making Champion-specific items and make them optional, why not do the same with Viktor's Augment?
This way all the people who copmplain about his lategame being a little too weak without a better 6th item will be appeased, and the people who want the stats/ability changes can get the augment early (for some reduced price so it adds up to the same thing when you upgrade it I guess).
Thoughts?
I really don't like the idea of champion-specific item. It's messy from a game design perspective. They should've had rengar's thing just be a passive or something like that, instead of an item.
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On August 11 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:36 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:18 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 01:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
Bonetooth Necklace is just a little bit ridiculous as an item. Insanely snowbally, only loses one stack on death. More cost effective than most basic attack items extremely quickly.
It's as cost-effective as a B.F. Sword at level 3-4. By level 18 you have a mix of valuable stats most of which have no easily calculable gold value. If you get 18 trophies, which is close to inevitable as a game goes on, you simply become a monster. I dunno, 18 trophies pretty hard to get, unless game goes to 40minutes or longer. I'd say realistically probably 8-10 is most likely. That's what I meant when I said, "as a game goes on". If a game goes long you're guaranteed 18 stacks unless you're dying so fast in teamfights that you get no assists or getting caught all the time. It's not like Mejai's where if you hit 20 and die you may never hit 20 again. Yeah. I'm fine with the item. It's better than being underpowered like viktor's item. It's slot AND cost efficient. They'll probably have to fix progression of stacks though, but that's something that's easily patchable.
I feel like the CDR/APen milestone is a little odd. Obviously the stats have value, but you don't really notice you've hit that mark. Every other milestone is more appreciable. Maybe if they changed it to just 10% CDR, or to lower the cooldown on his basic abilities by 1 second or something like that it would be more interesting.
Also, it's basically impossible to escape this guy in the jungle minus flashing over walls. Every bush you walk past gives him a free gap closer on you.
I just realized I forgot to test to see if he has any interactions with Cho'gath.
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On August 11 2012 02:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:36 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:18 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 01:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
Bonetooth Necklace is just a little bit ridiculous as an item. Insanely snowbally, only loses one stack on death. More cost effective than most basic attack items extremely quickly.
It's as cost-effective as a B.F. Sword at level 3-4. By level 18 you have a mix of valuable stats most of which have no easily calculable gold value. If you get 18 trophies, which is close to inevitable as a game goes on, you simply become a monster. I dunno, 18 trophies pretty hard to get, unless game goes to 40minutes or longer. I'd say realistically probably 8-10 is most likely. That's what I meant when I said, "as a game goes on". If a game goes long you're guaranteed 18 stacks unless you're dying so fast in teamfights that you get no assists or getting caught all the time. It's not like Mejai's where if you hit 20 and die you may never hit 20 again. Yeah. I'm fine with the item. It's better than being underpowered like viktor's item. It's slot AND cost efficient. They'll probably have to fix progression of stacks though, but that's something that's easily patchable. *facepalm* You realize Viktor's Death augment is one of, if not THE most cost effective early-early late game AP item, right?
Is it slot efficient?
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United States37500 Posts
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game.
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On August 11 2012 02:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:44 Perplex wrote:
In other news, hecarim still the only jungler I can carry with consistently. He's just so damn well rounded, is there any jungler that even comes close? I don't want to be a one trick pony (lol) but I can't find another jungler that tanks, dps's, and is mobile like he is. Depends on how you build him. I like the TF/PD/PD build, hahahaha, alright, that's enough trolling from me. I guess shyvanna is pretty close to Hecarim in terms of utility/role. Hmm, I've been recently seeing more skarner in some tourney play, at least in some of the EU, but from my understanding his mana problems are a real issue.
Mana problems are only an issue for me if I use W in the jungle at all. Q spam is rough for the first few levels, but after a while gets a lot easier, especially once you get Glacial for some Mana and Philo for some mp5. Spamming W is nice against Buff monsters and Dragon, but not necessary for regular camps and farm.
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On August 11 2012 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 11 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:36 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:18 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 01:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
Bonetooth Necklace is just a little bit ridiculous as an item. Insanely snowbally, only loses one stack on death. More cost effective than most basic attack items extremely quickly.
It's as cost-effective as a B.F. Sword at level 3-4. By level 18 you have a mix of valuable stats most of which have no easily calculable gold value. If you get 18 trophies, which is close to inevitable as a game goes on, you simply become a monster. I dunno, 18 trophies pretty hard to get, unless game goes to 40minutes or longer. I'd say realistically probably 8-10 is most likely. That's what I meant when I said, "as a game goes on". If a game goes long you're guaranteed 18 stacks unless you're dying so fast in teamfights that you get no assists or getting caught all the time. It's not like Mejai's where if you hit 20 and die you may never hit 20 again. Yeah. I'm fine with the item. It's better than being underpowered like viktor's item. It's slot AND cost efficient. They'll probably have to fix progression of stacks though, but that's something that's easily patchable. *facepalm* You realize Viktor's Death augment is one of, if not THE most cost effective early-early late game AP item, right? Is it slot efficient?
Until 6 item build? Absolutely. That's the trade off you make for a terrifying mid-late game.
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On August 11 2012 02:52 NeoIllusions wrote:
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game.
But it really can put a limitation on a champion. and I argue from a point of game design, not necessarily from balance.
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On August 11 2012 02:53 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:50 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:49 jcarlsoniv wrote:On August 11 2012 02:45 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:36 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 02:20 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:18 Seuss wrote:On August 11 2012 01:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
Bonetooth Necklace is just a little bit ridiculous as an item. Insanely snowbally, only loses one stack on death. More cost effective than most basic attack items extremely quickly.
It's as cost-effective as a B.F. Sword at level 3-4. By level 18 you have a mix of valuable stats most of which have no easily calculable gold value. If you get 18 trophies, which is close to inevitable as a game goes on, you simply become a monster. I dunno, 18 trophies pretty hard to get, unless game goes to 40minutes or longer. I'd say realistically probably 8-10 is most likely. That's what I meant when I said, "as a game goes on". If a game goes long you're guaranteed 18 stacks unless you're dying so fast in teamfights that you get no assists or getting caught all the time. It's not like Mejai's where if you hit 20 and die you may never hit 20 again. Yeah. I'm fine with the item. It's better than being underpowered like viktor's item. It's slot AND cost efficient. They'll probably have to fix progression of stacks though, but that's something that's easily patchable. *facepalm* You realize Viktor's Death augment is one of, if not THE most cost effective early-early late game AP item, right? Is it slot efficient? Until 6 item build? Absolutely. That's the trade off you make for a terrifying mid-late game.
Well, I concede the point to you my good sir, since you are the viktor aficionado on this forum.
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On August 11 2012 02:44 Perplex wrote:
In other news, hecarim still the only jungler I can carry with consistently. He's just so damn well rounded, is there any jungler that even comes close? I don't want to be a one trick pony (lol) but I can't find another jungler that tanks, dps's, and is mobile like he is.
Trundle? He's safe, he's got okay ganks, great sustain, tany, does a good amount of damage, etc. He's slow on clears, and being slow on clears and being only an okay ganker isn't really the best thing right now, but he's still a pretty good pick.
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On August 11 2012 02:52 NeoIllusions wrote:
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game.
I don't know I think this is easily one of those 'slippery-slope' things. Xypherous has been going on about how difficult it is to create an AD caster item that other Champions won't be able to take better advantage of (and be obscenely overpowered on Riven) but if you're already creating items specific to certain champions, who's to say you can't start doing the same for others?
He was worried about making said item basically mandatory on those AD casters but I'm wondering if this item for Rengar isn't the exact same thing. Sure, it's a snowball item and you have to play well to take full advantage of it (and a lot of bad players will probably buy it 'just cause' without considering the implications) but like wei2coolman said, it just seems to rub me the wrong way.
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Another thing to consider about Rengar's item is that you may not be able to get it right away (yes it's cost efficient at level 4 even without stacks but how many junglers just go straight up buy a pickaxe after boots?) and it doesn't actually start getting stacks until you actually, you know, buy it.
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On August 11 2012 02:59 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:52 NeoIllusions wrote:
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game. I don't know I think this is easily one of those 'slippery-slope' things. Xypherous has been going on about how difficult it is to create an AD caster itme that other Champions won't be able to take better advantage of (and be obcenely overpowered on Riven) but if you're already creating items specific to certain champions, who's to say you can't start doing the same for others? He was worried about making said item basically mandatory on those AD casters but I'm wondering if this item for Rengar isn't the exact same thing. Sure, it's a snowball item and you have to play well to take full advantage of it (and a lot of bad players will probably buy it 'just cause' without considering the implications) but like wei2coolman said, it just seems to rub me thew rong way.
As far as just hte item goes in terms of actual game balance, it'll definitely be one of the easier things to do, especially since it only affects 1 champion. It'll be easy just to change stack progressions, or change stats given without expecting a massive over all game impact (like hextech gunblade and warmog change did). Also for 1k gold it's pretty fucking cheap, even without stacks.
820g is its initial worth~ for 1k it's pretty cheap, considering stacking passive.
@ thenexusp
that's another good point, I'd guess it'd be around the time bruisers get brutalizer, except they'll get this instead on Rengar.
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On August 11 2012 02:59 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:52 NeoIllusions wrote:
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game. I don't know I think this is easily one of those 'slippery-slope' things. Xypherous has been going on about how difficult it is to create an AD caster item that other Champions won't be able to take better advantage of (and be obscenely overpowered on Riven) but if you're already creating items specific to certain champions, who's to say you can't start doing the same for others? He was worried about making said item basically mandatory on those AD casters but I'm wondering if this item for Rengar isn't the exact same thing. Sure, it's a snowball item and you have to play well to take full advantage of it (and a lot of bad players will probably buy it 'just cause' without considering the implications) but like wei2coolman said, it just seems to rub me the wrong way.
I'm not so worried about a single champion having a mandatory item -- the issue is with having a whole class of champions having a mandatory item (IE PD on AD carries is the big example).
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On August 11 2012 02:54 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:52 NeoIllusions wrote:
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game. But it really can put a limitation on a champion. and I argue from a point of game design, not necessarily from balance.
But this item is precisely the opposite of a limitation. It actually enables more gameplay choices because you have to choose whether or not the item is going to be "worth it" based on how you're doing in the game, how many kills/deaths/assists you forecast, and if the stats are something you really need.
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On August 11 2012 02:54 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:52 NeoIllusions wrote:
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game. But it really can put a limitation on a champion. and I argue from a point of game design, not necessarily from balance.
I wouldn't call an optional item item "limiting" in any regard. He doesn't have to get it at all, and if he gets to the point that he can take advantage of it (early game lead, good matchup, etc), it's a good option for him. It's flexibility, not necessity.
That said, it may end up just making him the snowball-y-est champ in the game. Rengar gets ahead, there's no stopping him from getting this and turning into a powerhouse. Will make bad players cry.
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i find it fascinating that so many people want the champions to be more similar to one another when a few months ago, everyone was all like 'man champ design so stale, come up with new ideas riot'
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On August 11 2012 03:13 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 02:54 wei2coolman wrote:On August 11 2012 02:52 NeoIllusions wrote:
Not all champions need to fit in the same little box.
Rengar can have an optional champ item and Viktor can have a mandatory item. I don't think it matters. Complaining about it is on par with complaining about a champion's kit.
When it comes down to it, "play better" solves the problem 9 times out of 10. Item slot deficient, if you will, should never be the reason as to why you lose lane/game. But it really can put a limitation on a champion. and I argue from a point of game design, not necessarily from balance. I wouldn't call an optional item item "limiting" in any regard. He doesn't have to get it at all, and if he gets to the point that he can take advantage of it (early game lead, good matchup, etc), it's a good option for him. It's flexibility, not necessity. That said, it may end up just making him the snowball-y-est champ in the game. Rengar gets ahead, there's no stopping him from getting this and turning into a powerhouse. Will make bad players cry.
well when i mentioned limitation i was talking about viktor, not rengar.
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If you need an item to fix a champion, why not just fix the champion itself?
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On August 11 2012 03:14 barbsq wrote:
i find it fascinating that so many people want the champions to be more similar to one another when a few months ago, everyone was all like 'man champ design so stale, come up with new ideas riot'
There's a more elegant way of doing it, special items in shop for just one champ feels like a cop out in terms of elegant design.
EDIT: GOT NINJA'D by Chiharu >.<
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EPT
