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On July 02 2012 13:22 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 13:19 OutlaW- wrote:
I'd advise us to end the discussion about the warding way to end here, but he would only get one wave, which is like 80 gold.
The possibility to shut him down with a specific hero (or play, even, TF is VERY suspectible to ganks, as he has no escape, is slow as fuck, and tends to push the lane) still exists, especially since TF is such a long range, squishy control kinda guy 1 wave has is 6 enemies which are about 24 each so thats about 148 gold, add onto that the 4 wards that are guaranteed to be cleared for another 100 and your oracles only costs you 252 gold, combine that with assist gold for ONE 3v1 gank top/4v2 bot gank and oracles on jungler to free up TF mid is almost free. assuming the oracles only clears 4 wards (lol) tf only ganks once per game (lol) and the jungler doesn't benefit independently from having fewer enemy wards (lol)
+ Show Spoiler +Melee Minion: Melee minions charge directly against the enemy. Three spawn each wave. Melee minions have more health than Caster Minions. On Summoner's Rift, they initially grant 22 gold on death in the first wave, increasing by +0.5 gold every 3 minutes. On Twisted Treeline, they initially grant 29 gold on death, which then increases at the same rate as on Summoner's Rift.
Caster Minion: Caster minions attack enemies from a range by firing bolts of energy that are the same color as their teams. Three spawn each wave. On Summoner's Rift, they initially grant 16 gold on death in the first wave, increasing by +0.5 gold every 3 minutes. On Twisted Treeline, they initially grant 22 gold on death, which then increases at the same rate as on Summoner's Rift.
3x 23 + 3x 17 = 120 gold precisely
Statistically speaking, you are correct, the jungler doesn't face a very big disadvantage - tell me, then, why junglers don't buy an early oracle every game? It's because it means that they can't do any risky dives, and because any gold that they would gain because of the oracle gets cashed in 2-3 minutes later. He could have had a half of a gp/10, but instead, statwise, he has nothing.
I guess you are still kind of right, but thinking about it, this should be done with any aggressive midder - not just TF, but anyone mobile like kass, fizz, talon
The situations we are talking about are still purely theoretical and hypothetical, league play hasn't even gotten to the point of acknowledging that TF is OP, let alone to the point of trying to counter him in some way
Anivia seems to be pretty broken, yet riot hasn't fixed her yet and nor has the community come up with a way to counter her
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On July 02 2012 13:29 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 13:19 OutlaW- wrote:
I'd advise us to end the discussion about the warding way to end here, but he would only get one wave, which is like 80 gold.
The possibility to shut him down with a specific hero (or play, even, TF is VERY suspectible to ganks, as he has no escape, is slow as fuck, and tends to push the lane) still exists, especially since TF is such a long range, squishy control kinda guy I don't wanna get into the TF debate. But the part about him being susceptible to ganks is just straight wrong. Not having an escape and being slow isn't that big of a deal when you can last hit from like 1100 range away and have infinite mana.
By last hitting from 1100 range you mean last hitting with cards? Because if yes, you will probably lose 40% creeps automatically, as the cards will usually damage more than just one creep and have a long cooldown. It also pushes the lane, which a smart midder can take advantage of by freezing it just outside of hsi turret. In this position, TF either loses a LOT of cs or is easily gankable
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You hit the 2nd melee minion with a red card and q down the lane while they're still in a line. Instaclears waves if you have enough AP all game long.
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On July 02 2012 13:37 r.Evo wrote:
You hit the 2nd melee minion with a red card and q down the lane while they're still in a line. Instaclears waves if you have enough AP all game long.
not at level 1 blah blah blah. 
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Yes, obviously. I'm talking about before level 9. I know the recent trend has been to camp top lane, but camping mid lane is still very viable, especially with such a strategy that overt is talking about. Before level 9, you cannot instantly clear creeps and will therefore be pushing (but not completely). The other guy can wait until the creeps have reached just outside of tower range and then push equally as TF - thus freezing the lane. This forces TF to overextend and be killable by really almost any jungler or miss a lot of CS. If he wants to last hit from range with Q, he will lose at least half CS.
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I think globals in general are just really strong because people forget about them in solo queue, and communication is really good in arranged. On the plus side, TF doesn't have that 100-0 burst that a lot of mids have. GP doesn't feel that strong top lane (at least not the ones I face), ashe feels weak bot lane compared to graves or cait but she has one of the longest range initiates in the game. Ez is similar to ashe.
In this sense these four champions give up some laning power to get globals.
Raka, pantheon, shen, and karthus don't really have to give up this feature.
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Global ultimates I can't really comment on since I don't play competitively. Shen might get off the 90% banned status he has right now with the nerf.
As far as orianna goes, the buffs sound good. I would love a mana cost decrease on her Q proportional to the damage decrease on her Q (as unlikely as that is to happen). My guess is that a Q+W combo early game (levels 1-5) will do comparable damage to what it does now and we'll only see the benefits after an AP item or two (deathcap or RoA+needlessly large). Her skills are probably changed to queue up commands a little so that any cast while the ball is in flight/close to its destination is cast immediately upon arrival. It'll be more clear-cut now though, always max W first since W is your damage. With a reduced cooldown, she'll be a lot more forgiving to play.
The cooldown on hitting R when the ball snaps back in combination with the longer leash range on allies means that it's much more viable to put the ball on someone with a huge initiate range like malphite and trust that the ball will still be on him at the end of his ultimate.
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On July 02 2012 13:46 obesechicken13 wrote:
I think globals in general are just really strong because people forget about them in solo queue, and communication is really good in arranged. On the plus side, TF doesn't have that 100-0 burst that a lot of mids have. GP doesn't feel that strong top lane (at least not the ones I face), ashe feels weak bot lane compared to graves or cait but she has one of the longest range initiates in the game. Ez is similar to ashe.
In this sense these four champions give up some laning power to get globals.
Raka, pantheon, shen, and karthus don't really have to give up this feature.
I'd say Soraka's ulti gives up power to be global. Her ulti is really underwhelming when compared to a Sona or Janna ulti. Situationally good, but in a teamfight it lacks the impact of a aoe stun or being able to engage disengage at will.
Karthus' ulti is good, but in teamfights he's forced to either suicide into ulti which wastes his passive or he risks an interrupt during his channel. Still a very strong ulti but panth gives up next to nothing in exchange for an aoe DMG tele and Shen's actually enhances his kit by making him a god of split pushing and forcing 5v4s if they try to stop him.
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On July 02 2012 13:13 Perplex wrote:
fizz crushes Tf hard, but then you have to deal with the fact that you're playing fizz the rest of the game
And that's difficult to deal with because...?
If Fizz gets through the laning he's like the strongest mage around.
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On July 02 2012 14:07 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 13:13 Perplex wrote:
fizz crushes Tf hard, but then you have to deal with the fact that you're playing fizz the rest of the game And that's difficult to deal with because...? If Fizz gets through the laning he's like the strongest mage around.
Maybe as a duelist, but in team fights he's pretty mediocre compared to most other AP's
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On July 02 2012 14:09 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 14:07 Shikyo wrote:On July 02 2012 13:13 Perplex wrote:
fizz crushes Tf hard, but then you have to deal with the fact that you're playing fizz the rest of the game And that's difficult to deal with because...? If Fizz gets through the laning he's like the strongest mage around. Maybe as a duelist, but in team fights he's pretty mediocre compared to most other AP's
This. He's really not that big of a threat late game compared to a lot of others.
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Hey guys, how good is Xerath? I never see him in any games, nor do I hear about him as much as other champs. I was thinking about buying him.
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On July 02 2012 14:28 IMoperator wrote:
Hey guys, how good is Xerath? I never see him in any games, nor do I hear about him as much as other champs. I was thinking about buying him.
He was really really good and really really underplayed, but they recently nerfed him pretty hard by messing up his ultimate. They claim that a rework is on its way, but there wasn't anything in the patch preview about it so I wouldn't hold your breath.
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On July 02 2012 14:28 IMoperator wrote:
Hey guys, how good is Xerath? I never see him in any games, nor do I hear about him as much as other champs. I was thinking about buying him.
This discussion comes up a lot (started it myself once). Rundown is this: boring animations make him underplayed, and his role of siege poke is filled by other champs like AP Kog. He's actually really good, but underplayed.
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uhhh.... theres a guy just livestreaming porn and its on the front page of own3d right now.. wtf lol
phantomlord is laughing so hard on his stream
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On July 02 2012 15:02 Perplex wrote:
uhhh.... theres a guy just livestreaming porn and its on the front page of own3d right now.. wtf lol
phantomlord is laughing so hard on his stream
lol. 2k viewers np. Doesn't even look that bad.
brb gotta erh... make breakfest!
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On July 02 2012 15:11 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 15:02 Perplex wrote:
uhhh.... theres a guy just livestreaming porn and its on the front page of own3d right now.. wtf lol
phantomlord is laughing so hard on his stream lol. 2k viewers np. Doesn't even look that bad. brb gotta erh... make breakfest!
it has the 3rd highest viewers of any own3d stream... lol this is so bad. the chat is honestly hilarious though
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I remember that time someone hacked White-Ra's stream and was streaming some porn game
that was pretty funny
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EPT
