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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2012 12:57 OutlaW- wrote:
Once TF hits level 6, anytime a good team doesn't see him on the map, they will go back. At this point, you usually can't dive a full hp person with 2 people, and taking 3 people to go top gets the other team free dragon or free mid tower.
OK, so TF insta-clears creep waves, and just backs up out of vision. Your bot and top lane are forced to cede creep control 2-3 seconds after each creep wave meets because they're worried about potential TF ganks, which means that without doing ANYTHING, TF forces both sidelanes to lose a couple creeps off every wave for free.
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Ward mid lane, pick someone who pushes just like him, or pick an assassin (talon, kass come to mind) that shuts him down
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On July 02 2012 12:59 OutlaW- wrote:
yea jiji plays way too passive, sorta reminds me of hotshot except he can't afford that because he's mid, one of the playmakers
Probably 'cause I love jiji but he's gotten a lot better at this. Watch him play Ahri or Teleport Ryze. He's made big plays at recent tournaments and his team fighting is still incredibly good. But yeah, he generally plays more passive in lane and probably doesn't roam as much as he should but now he roams just as much as other NA/EU mids imo. He may even roam more than other NA/EU mids to be honest.
NA/EU mids in general don't roam as much as Asian mids do from what I've seen.
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Yea, I know, he's my favorite player fyi and imo one of the best AP mids currently in the game
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:04 OutlaW- wrote:
Ward mid lane, pick someone who pushes just like him, or pick an assassin (talon, kass come to mind) that shuts him down
Trading insta-clears doesn't reduce the gank threat. Your other lanes still need to worry. It only improves your ability to push the lane when he actually chooses to teleport, but that's often just handled by TF's jungler moving to clean up mid if he's in position to do so.
Kassadin gets crushed in lane by TF. Talon might work, sure, but when's the last time an NA/EU mid played Talon to the level that they'd feel comfortable with it in a tournament?
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What about my third point, warding? Seems like the easiest solution to me..
and FYI i disagree about TF crushing kassadin, could you elaborate
''but when's the last time an NA/EU mid played Talon to the level that they'd feel comfortable with it in a tournament?''
So your reasoning is that because nobody can play talon to a good enough level, we should nerf TF even though talon rapes him? That, to me, is just wrong. People can't play talon, better nerf TF? The solution here would be to force people to adapt, force people to learn how to play talon
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:08 OutlaW- wrote:
What about my third point, warding? Seems like the easiest solution to me..
Wards don't stay up reliably in competitive games, especially when your movement in response to TF makes the ward position super obvious.
On July 02 2012 13:08 OutlaW- wrote:
What about my third point, warding? Seems like the easiest solution to me..
and FYI i disagree about TF crushing kassadin, could you elaborate
By the time Kassadin can present any kind of threat to TF, TF outpushes Kass too hard.
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So are you saying that you'd have the support (lvl 4 probably) buy oracle and roam mid to get rid of the wards? Something many people don't realize (you at least seem not to) is that you can just ward the lane, like you would with a pink against twitch. Then you have vision even after creeps die
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wow riot has been doing so well with patches for about 3 or 4 months, nothing too extreme, game really feeling balanced
this patch has a lot of problems
>leblanc hasn't been in a "bad" place for a long time. in fact with new DFG i think she's slightly above the curve of most mages. yes, she's outclassed by ahri, which is what they were implying by the "mobile blah blah blah" shit that they were spewing, but who isn't outclassed by ahri? leblanc is going from a good situational / fair general pick to a good general / OP situational pick. not good for a champ like that.
>orianna buffs were summed up by yango perfectly. why buff EVERYTHING? she's not in a bad place either. she has some really potent combos (orianna/mundo, orianna/skarner, orianna/olaf) and is only a tiny bit behind other mages. QoL change with global cooldowns would have been enough. range on E would have been enough. damage on W would have been enough. changing everything seems like a recipe for disaster
>karthus/soraka nerfs were needed, but probably in the form of ratios, not cooldowns. karthus is kind of terrible champ design in that anything and everything you can do to him is the opposite of what you do to every other mage. gank karthus? he doesn't care, he'll get his damage items anyway and might even kill you from the grave to make it 1 for 1. run FROM karthus? i don't think so, wall of pain. run TOWARDS karthus? eat infinite damage from defile. pick melee champs against karthus? lolk, every attempt to kill him is thwarted by defile. manage to kill karthus? he kills you back. in the passive playstyle of high level games, he's a real problem
>shen nerf hits the wrong thing. give shen back his self-shield, take away his laning strength, keep his ult range. boom, shen fixed, you can thank me later riot. instead of being able to truck people 1v1, he needs to be a defensive champ. too much damage, don't hit his utility
>nunu buffs are great for jungling, exactly what us nunu players wanted. snkarcbound is gonna be 2.5k in no time. unfortunately some of his lane abuse cases are gonna be really problematic now...
>no changes to malphite, jax, vlad, kennen, kayle... no changes to naut or ali either. no real reason to pick any other jungler, so bans are targetted at ali and naut always. no reason to pick a bruiser top when you could have a champ that does more and tanks more damage than a bruiser even when building gp10 items (malph, lolbullshitchamp). no reason to pick a bruiser when you could have a ranged carry or ranged mage top that can zone bruisers from level 1. RIP my best champs for at least another patch. i picked malphite in solo queue today after the enemy picked pantheon, and went something like 2-0-4 in 10 minutes while building gp10 items and stacking armor. it was the most boring game. the dude built chalice, philo, and hogged blue buff, and still couldn't chuck enough spears to break my passive. i felt really bad, that shouldn't be a thing
overall, shame on you riot, go back to tiny patches and fking fix xerath
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fizz crushes Tf hard, but then you have to deal with the fact that you're playing fizz the rest of the game
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:12 OutlaW- wrote:
So are you saying that you'd have the support (lvl 4 probably) buy oracle and roam mid to get rid of the wards? Something many people don't realize (you at least seem not to) is that you can just ward the lane, like you would with a pink against twitch. Then you have vision even after creeps die
Because support is the only person that can buy oracles? Or that oracle's is the only way to remove wards?
It's not like early jungler Oracle's is even that rare in competitive play. With TF it's a no-brainer--the risk of losing Oracle's in a countergank is quite a deterrent against buying the early jungle Oracle's, but with TF, you de-ward his lane, and he creates the gank pressure without you risking counter-gankable scenarios.
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On July 02 2012 13:12 OutlaW- wrote:
So are you saying that you'd have the support (lvl 4 probably) buy oracle and roam mid to get rid of the wards? Something many people don't realize (you at least seem not to) is that you can just ward the lane, like you would with a pink against twitch. Then you have vision even after creeps die
nah i'd have my jungle buy an oracles really quickly and clear ALL wards.
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Yes. Forcing the jungler who is probably around level 5 to buy oracle would counter getting wards to shut down TF. This already means that you are in 100% games forced to buy an oracle at level 5, which, to me, already seems like a pretty big sacrifice.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:16 OutlaW- wrote:
Yes. Forcing the jungler who is probably around level 5 to buy oracle would counter getting wards to shut down TF. This already means that you are in 100% games forced to buy an oracle at level 5, which, to me, already seems like a pretty big sacrifice.
He very quickly makes back the farm when he has a solo lane to clear whenever TF gets a gank off. Alternatively, every enemy lane plays pussy, and he gets to afk-farm without needing to look for ganks because both enemy sidelanes are too scared to move to a gankable part of the lane anyway.
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I'd advise us to end the discussion about the warding way to end here, but he would only get one wave, which is like 80 gold.
The possibility to shut him down with a specific hero (or play, even, TF is VERY suspectible to ganks, as he has no escape, is slow as fuck, and tends to push the lane) still exists, especially since TF is such a long range, squishy control kinda guy
''Alternatively, every enemy lane plays pussy, and he gets to afk-farm without needing to look for ganks because both enemy sidelanes are too scared to move to a gankable part of the lane anyway.''
That kinda play is completely viable even without TF, and yet we don't see it that much
Buying early oracle and always clearing mid, top and bot wards means that the lane is forced to play pussy anyway.
If your opponents have TF and somebody does that to you, your jungler will probably just want to camp TF whenever his ulti is up
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On July 02 2012 13:19 OutlaW- wrote:
I'd advise us to end the discussion about the warding way to end here, but he would only get one wave, which is like 80 gold.
The possibility to shut him down with a specific hero (or play, even, TF is VERY suspectible to ganks, as he has no escape, is slow as fuck, and tends to push the lane) still exists, especially since TF is such a long range, squishy control kinda guy
1 wave has is 6 enemies which are about 24 each so thats about 148 gold, add onto that the 4 wards that are guaranteed to be cleared for another 100 and your oracles only costs you 252 gold, combine that with assist gold for ONE 3v1 gank top/4v2 bot gank and oracles on jungler to free up TF mid is almost free. assuming the oracles only clears 4 wards (lol) tf only ganks once per game (lol) and the jungler doesn't benefit independently from having fewer enemy wards (lol)
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On July 02 2012 12:27 OutlaW- wrote:
my guess is that his ulti isn't strong enough to warrant a nerf? i think he's pretty balanced, if anything then he's a bit underpowered
Balanced my ass, that shit always does 1000 damage to me at level 6. I don't know why it's so randomized, it could easily be made to work like other, non-bullshit AoEs.
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On July 02 2012 13:23 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 12:27 OutlaW- wrote:
my guess is that his ulti isn't strong enough to warrant a nerf? i think he's pretty balanced, if anything then he's a bit underpowered Balanced my ass, that shit always does 1000 damage to me at level 6. I don't know why it's so randomized, it could easily be made to work like other, non-bullshit AoEs.
haha, gp ulti biggest troll ability in the game. You think you've gotten away and then five cannonballs hit you in a row or something. It really makes no sense.
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On July 02 2012 13:23 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 12:27 OutlaW- wrote:
my guess is that his ulti isn't strong enough to warrant a nerf? i think he's pretty balanced, if anything then he's a bit underpowered Balanced my ass, that shit always does 1000 damage to me at level 6. I don't know why it's so randomized, it could easily be made to work like other, non-bullshit AoEs.
then why isn't gp a top pick in competitive play? Let me answer myself, it's because he's not a pick in competitive play at all
I know this reasoning ''just because something doesn't get played doesn't mean it's unviable'' doesn't completely say anything, but there is always a reason for this
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On July 02 2012 13:19 OutlaW- wrote:
I'd advise us to end the discussion about the warding way to end here, but he would only get one wave, which is like 80 gold.
The possibility to shut him down with a specific hero (or play, even, TF is VERY suspectible to ganks, as he has no escape, is slow as fuck, and tends to push the lane) still exists, especially since TF is such a long range, squishy control kinda guy
I don't wanna get into the TF debate. But the part about him being susceptible to ganks is just straight wrong. Not having an escape and being slow isn't that big of a deal when you can last hit from like 1100 range away and have infinite mana.
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EPT
