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[Patch 1.0.0.141: Draven] General Discussion - Page 200
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On June 29 2012 05:15 Sermokala wrote: there comes a point where you really just have to give up on ladders and solo q for any sort of raiting for how good you are. yeah people like to talk all the time about elo but it doesn't really matter how good you are at the game if your not being paid to do it. or at least how good you play in inhouse's or with friends. I'm undefeated in ranked play and I'm happy with that. yeah ive pretty much reached that point. i only play with my noob brother when he gets on these days. anything else feels like a waste of time or is extremely frustrating because i dont like losing. which is unfortunate because i think the game is brilliantly designed on many levels, but the ladder seems like a treadmill designed to be just that. i cant really begrudge riot the right to make the ladder like they have (the game being free and all) but for me it is too frustrating to be fun. overall i have played more LoL then probably any other game in recent memory and have really enjoyed it for the most part. but i think im getting burnt out just like i do on any mmo after a certain length of time. the artificial reward loops become more and more pronounced and less and less engaging. que the 'stfu you whiny bitch' and 'dont let the door hit you on the way out' posts. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
On June 29 2012 05:30 Vaporized wrote: yeah ive pretty much reached that point. i only play with my noob brother when he gets on these days. anything else feels like a waste of time or is extremely frustrating because i dont like losing. which is unfortunate because i think the game is brilliantly designed on many levels, but the ladder seems like a treadmill designed to be just that. i cant really begrudge riot the right to make the ladder like they have (the game being free and all) but for me it is too frustrating to be fun. overall i have played more LoL then probably any other game in recent memory and have really enjoyed it for the most part. but i think im getting burnt out just like i do on any mmo after a certain length of time. the artificial reward loops become more and more pronounced and less and less engaging. que the 'stfu you whiny bitch' and 'dont let the door hit you on the way out' posts. Do you still enjoy normals? | ||
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LoCicero
1100 Posts
On June 29 2012 04:47 PrinceXizor wrote: The game being miserable has to do with how terrible the backend of the game is, the server side issues and constant problems, in addition to the fact that i don't like how passive and snowbally the game is at top levels but the second half of that was just personal preference. If you think games are too passive now you probably weren't around at the start of LoL's competitive scene. I played in WCG 2010 for CLG, those games were way more passive than any of the games I have watched recently. The games were even more passive than the games I played with Dignitas at IPL3. Games at WCG almost never ended before 40 minutes. I personally feel it is much better right now. While the meta is stale the games are pretty interesting in my opinion. I can actually spectate games and enjoy it. I almost always got bored of watching games a while ago. Riot is pushing the game in the right direction. If they weren't the game wouldn't be so popular. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 29 2012 05:03 Gorsameth wrote: There is no way to handle 5v5 pug rankings. You should read Mogwai's blog tho it has a really good articel on this subject. http://mogwaismusings.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/soloqueuementality/ yeah, i've read it, a typical game for me in ranked right now is calling mia on every lane, where they are likely to go, telling everyone if they are out of position, telling the best way to engage team fights in the situation, calling for dragon at proper times, encouraging safe play based on objectives. but people just won't listen, nothing i can do to change that. I've tried every approach i can think of to get people to listen to me. but none of it works. If jungle wants to flash into a turret to try for a kill on mid who is at half hp with a lvl 6 soraka on their team, nothing i can do about it will change his mind. hell i'd play blitz 100% of games if his hook worked on teammates, just so there was something i COULD do to change it. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On June 29 2012 05:41 PrinceXizor wrote: yeah, i've read it, a typical game for me in ranked right now is calling mia on every lane, where they are likely to go, telling everyone if they are out of position, telling the best way to engage team fights in the situation, calling for dragon at proper times, encouraging safe play based on objectives. but people just won't listen, nothing i can do to change that. I've tried every approach i can think of to get people to listen to me. but none of it works. If jungle wants to flash into a turret to try for a kill on mid who is at half hp with a lvl 6 soraka on their team, nothing i can do about it will change his mind. hell i'd play blitz 100% of games if his hook worked on teammates, just so there was something i COULD do to change it. so what is the point of blaming your teammates and whining about them being the reason you lost? you cant change what they do so focus on improving yourself lol. | ||
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Lorken
New Zealand804 Posts
Viktor, I'm normally used to playing with 1200 elo scrubs and hardly ever lose lane because I play him so much. He was playing with some friends though, so they must have been low elo's. Taught me I have a lot to work on though, so I guess that's a good thing. It was a normal game though. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 29 2012 05:46 De4ngus wrote: so what is the point of blaming your teammates and whining about them being the reason you lost? you cant change what they do so focus on improving yourself lol. because i can't improve myself when i can't learn from the games i'm playing. I am constantly thinking what could i have done better ect, but when consistently the only thing i can think of is "don't trust my team so much" or "be more convincing", i'm not improving myself anymore. It's impossible to improve yourself without challenging your skill. If you go to the gym, and do 8 sets of 10 lifts with 10 pounds of weight every time, you hit a plateau because you are not challenging yourself to become stronger. you are telling me that when i go to the gym, what i should focus on is form, when the reason i have plateaued is because i'm not using enough resistance. also i'm not blaming teammates or whinign about them being the reason i lost. I'm blaming the system for putting me with these teammates, and whining about the player pool not challenging me. | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On June 29 2012 06:00 PrinceXizor wrote: because i can't improve myself when i can't learn from the games i'm playing. I am constantly thinking what could i have done better ect, but when consistently the only thing i can think of is "don't trust my team so much" or "be more convincing", i'm not improving myself anymore. It's impossible to improve yourself without challenging your skill. If you go to the gym, and do 8 sets of 10 lifts with 10 pounds of weight every time, you hit a plateau because you are not challenging yourself to become stronger. you are telling me that when i go to the gym, what i should focus on is form, when the reason i have plateaued is because i'm not using enough resistance. also i'm not blaming teammates or whinign about them being the reason i lost. I'm blaming the system for putting me with these teammates, and whining about the player pool not challenging me. lifting heavy teammates sounds pretty challenging to me. there is your "resistance." | ||
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Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
On June 29 2012 01:55 Simberto wrote: Well, you go into a game with the sole purpose of not doing anything, and just leeching from what the others do. If everyone is ok with it, it is no problem. But if you don't ask them, and go into the game with the purpose of being afk, that is a dick move. You basically rely on those 4 people, who you don't know and have not even asked, to get you your first win of the day, and force this situation onto them. Sure coop vs ai might not be the hardest thing, but it would be pretty much impossible if there were more people with that attitude, and you suddenly have to deal with 2-3 afk dudes every game. It's always a communication deal, and forcing this kind of stuff where obviously only you profit from it onto people you don't know is never nice. Regarding the Brand, and the losing to him in lane: You always feel stupid when you lose in lane to a brand, simply because he is so skillshot based, and losing to him means that you got hit by skillshots, which usually makes you feel stupid. This does not necessarily mean that it is a good accessment of the situation, but every time i lose to a brand i am going "ARGHHH, why did i have to stand in that pillar? Why did i have to run that way into the fireball, it was so obvious" Personally, I'd be completely fine with 4 ppl going afk and leaving me to win 1v5 against bots. My point is, people don't go to co op ai for a 'real' game. They go to learn champs, try new builds and other basic stuff. Having 4 out of 5 team mates doesn't take away from that at all. Hell ppl might even be happier with two leavers, just so everyone gets a solo lane. If you go into co op vs ai it's unreasonable to expect anything from your teammates | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
On June 29 2012 06:00 PrinceXizor wrote: because i can't improve myself when i can't learn from the games i'm playing. I am constantly thinking what could i have done better ect, but when consistently the only thing i can think of is "don't trust my team so much" or "be more convincing", i'm not improving myself anymore. It's impossible to improve yourself without challenging your skill. If you go to the gym, and do 8 sets of 10 lifts with 10 pounds of weight every time, you hit a plateau because you are not challenging yourself to become stronger. you are telling me that when i go to the gym, what i should focus on is form, when the reason i have plateaued is because i'm not using enough resistance. also i'm not blaming teammates or whinign about them being the reason i lost. I'm blaming the system for putting me with these teammates, and whining about the player pool not challenging me. Just sounds like you are full of yourself. What ELO are you at? | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
Playing at high Elo and low Elo really do need seperate playstyles because everyone is so bad at the lower levels. Don't do what is "optimal" and expect it to always work out. You need to adapt. It's like playing match-made 3v3 or something in SC2. You play differently depending on what level you're at because your team will be reacting differently. On my NA account I'm levelling, I win most of my games. I don't play the same way I would on my lvl 30 account simply because I don't expect my team to know what they're doing and follow up on plays correctly. The same would apply in low Elo brackets. Re Co-Op v AI: It's still not recommended to just afk in Co-Op, but if your team is fine with it then c'est la vie. That's for your team to decide on whether to report, and the Tribunal to decide if this is something the LoL Community feels is ok. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
its fun to carry normals with troll builds like ad malz, and fun to play with my brother. but if he wasnt on i certainly wouldnt play normals. aight peace out homies, ill stop whining now. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I agree that Elo is flawed as a system to judge one's skill, but I'd say it is because Elo rather depicts the level at which you are able to account for others' mistakes and carry. Which is a bad thing for the "true" evaluation of one's individual level, but we can't all play ranked 5s so I guess it is something we have to cope with for the time being. Also, I facepalmed more than once on a 1900 game, with horrid mechanics (a Viktor playing worse than my 1300 sorry ass, and I don't think I could even play Viktor at this level) or decision making (Alistar dives 1v3 to try and steal the enemy blue when it's obvious they're waiting for him). I couldn't believe it so I went on lolking to make sure and it turned out I spectated a EUNE ranked game. There was only 4 (maybe 5) players out of the 10 that I would qualify of "decent", according to my low standards. Is the level so skewed in EUNE? Or did I randomly step in a game played by a bunch of power-leveled baddies? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 29 2012 06:02 De4ngus wrote: lifting heavy teammates sounds pretty challenging to me. there is your "resistance." no it's just a bad trip and i'm along for the ride. if my teammates will do what they do regardless of my actions, and what they are doing leads to a loss, then i have no control over a win or a loss. and i cannot improve because i have no feedback from my actions. for instance. if i join a ranked game, and all 4 people on my team leave before minions spawn. i'm going to lose, no matter what. Nothing i do can change that outcome. Nothing i can do during those 10-20 minutes can improve my skill level any. because i am no longer playing league of legends, i'm playing league of wait. if my team is going to suicide over and over into a tower for 1 kill, there is nothing i can do to prevent it if they don't listen to me short of picking anivia and walling them out from it. Let's take an example from a recent laning experience i had, janna(me) + vayne vs naut/varus. We start our harrass on varus, who stupidly takes alot of damage, naut starts to come to save his teammate, i pop up naut, slow him, and vayne walks into naut gets held, attacked varus turns and shoots a q at the standing still vayne, vayne get's low (about 200 hp) but varus is 2 auto attacks away from death, my Q W and E are on cooldown having just blew them all in an attempt to save vayne. naut is about to ulti vayne and guarantee a kill for his varus. so i walk up and ultimate to knock them all away and out of range, saving vayne's life. Naut flashes up and attempts an anchor to a wall to get in range to ulti vayne. i flash directly in front of naut to prevent him from moving forward at all. vayne flashes towards naut and then tumbles further toward varus trying to get those 2 autos, naut ulti's vayne and varus picks up the kill. there was nothing i did in that situation that lead to vayne's death. the only thing i could have done differently, was flash in between varus and naut and push varus into the side bush and naut into river area. this would have led to a guaranteed 1 for 1 trade. but instead i err'd on the side of caution and tried (and successfully) saved my carry's life. Vayne however, had plenty of different things she could have done. she could have not flash/tumbled into them. making it a 0 for 0 exchange (with them using both flashes and an exhaust and varus ult (whiffed) and us only using 1 flash) She could have walked/tumbled/flashed away to avoid nautilus saving my need to use my flash or my ulti making it a 0 for 0 exchange with them using a flash, an exhaust, a varus ult and us using nothing All of these things i asked her to do "get away from naut" "not worth it" "don't go in" "get back There was no impact i could have made on the situation. vayne chose to die wholly on her own, and there was absolutely no improvement to be made by me. Except, to not trust my teammates and to be more convincing. for 5v5 games like dota and lol you need to be able to play a game alone, and have an impact on the game. having a impact on a game is how you decide whether your actions were correct or wrong and is what you learn from. When there is no impact made, and the outcome could be determined whether you afk'd at the start or played perfectly, there is nothing to learn, no improvements to be made. the game was a waste of time, win or lose. I don't care about my ELO, if my skill level was at this elo, i wouldn't be posting this, i would be improving and playing to challenge myself. i care about improving at a competitive game. and when i cannot do that because of the system set up and the game mechanics themselves, there is no point for me to be playing that competitive game. That is a flawed game. | ||
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Agnosthar
631 Posts
On June 29 2012 04:10 jcarlsoniv wrote: I think, starting tonight, I am going to start tracking my own elo adventures (inspired by Slusher and also while looking at trends at work atm). What I'm thinking is for each game, track: Elo gain/loss What Roll Played Date/Time (so I can look at trends on weekends vs weekdays) Streaks Are there any other variables you guys think it would be useful/interesting to keep track of? Wouldn't your cs in each game be worth noting as well? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
If 4 players go afk at start you can't do anything. Except you have 4 teammates playing suboptimally and you're against 5 teammates playing about the same sub optimally but you have to count for some potential snowballing. If you are significantly better than your average elo player then you will carry the large majority of the games if you blame your teammates you will never improve at an efficient rate. If you doubt this paly 5's with 4 friends in "elo hell" and see how far you get. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On June 29 2012 06:34 Slayer91 wrote: If you think bad teammates inhibit yourself improving your are delusional. It limits your OPTIONS, it doesn't stop you making the best decision possible at every point based on what teammates are DOING. With some room for error based on predicting teammates actions but if you are predicting teammates actions then it's not a certainty since skillshots can be missed etc etc. i feel like everyone is ignoring what i'm saying and just assuming i'm doing a typical "elo hell" whine. NO i don't give a flying fuck about what my ELO is currently at, or "should be at" NO i don't give a flying fuck if my teammates are ass every game i ever play ever. NO i don't give a flying fuck if i lose ELO because of bad teammates and get stuck a low ELO. YES i want to improve at competitive games YES i am complaining about League of legends Gameplay and laddering system because it inhibits player growth YES i have played solely to support my teammates actions no matter how stupid, but it doesn't teach me anything or even help win games sometimes. YES i want to play a game regardless of how bad my team is and come out finding a way to improve. NO i don't want to come out of that game with the way to improve being "get better teammates" or "Ignore your teammates" NO League of legends does not allow you to improve through their ladder, unless you are currently around your own skill level in ELO NO league of legends does not have a reasonable way of improving without their ladder unless you are on a team. NO i don't think League of legends has a future as a competitive game because of all these major flaws in design and systems. YES i think league of legends will die out within a few years because pro teams are stagnating in skill because there is no strong talent coming up because there is not a system to BREED strong talent. I don't care my ELO is 4. I want to play a game and find ways to improve myself based on that. When i cannot do that because the ways to improve become work around bad teammates, i'm not learning how to play League of legends, i'm learning how to succeed in solo queue not succeed as a competitive player. | ||
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Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
Sure it's not ideal, but tough shit. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14159 Posts
Stop blaming a game for your mental problems you sound just like idra. no one is forceing you to give a shit about lol or any other mulitplayer game ever. you wouldn't be posting on this thread if you didn't really care about lol. | ||
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