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On June 29 2012 06:47 Dgiese wrote:
It sounds like retarded teammates are pretty common for you princexizor, in which case I'm surprised you haven't worked out ways to adapt. I think Alaric had an anecdote about his teammates making a suboptimal play, but having to go along with it anyway. That's solo q, if your team listens and follows your lead, great, easy win, if they don't you have to adapt. At the Elo it sounds like you're at, it's not all that hard to capitalize off retarded teammates by using them as bait.
Sure it's not ideal, but tough shit.
eh it's common for one side to have retarded teammates, but not both usually. i don't play carries, i play supports almost exclusively, so i often rely on at least 1 other person on my team doing the right thing, and hopefully that person picked a character with at least some CC.
I don't care about winning at all though. i'd lose every game and be happy if i could get good games in where i learn from them. hell i prefer losing, i just want my actions to make a difference one way or the other in the games i choose to play.
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Stop it guys. There is no point in arguing with someone who got all defensive on the internet. Neither side gains anything.
You definitely should put some distance between you and everything related to LoL for a couple of days, PrinceXizor.
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I'm not going to try and reason with someone who plays support all the time on the ladder and expects to have a good time. you don't need a support except at the highest level of play.
Dota 2 has the same exact system that lol has except they don't tell you what your rank is. If you don't understand how you can make an impact every game in lol then you don't understand anything in lol. Everything is based off of that foundation beacuse nothing makes sense without that.
Ranked teams is something that they introduced that would probably suit what your looking for. Yango speaks wise.
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On June 29 2012 06:56 Sermokala wrote:
You will never find what you want if you keep that attitude prince. Its physically impossible for a game designer to make something to give you good games all the time.
Have fun playing whatever you enjoy I guess lol just isn't it.
Yeah i'll keep tabs on the game, maybe they will overhaul their system (either ladder or gameplay) and i'll come back to trying to play competitively, meanwhile i'll be playing dota 2.  because of the way that game works in game i can actually make an impact in every game so i have things to work on. but you guys are awesome here so <3
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United States47024 Posts
I understand your argument PrinceXizor, but you're not going to get anywhere because pretty much the entire LoL community doesn't respect the difference between "competitive play" and "pub play"--as evidenced by the fact that for a long time competitive teams treated solo queue as legitimate practice.
Essentially, what you're looking for is organized inhouse play as exists in the DotA community, but such infrastructure doesn't exist in the LoL community.
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If that is the case how come say Poker hasn't ever died out?
There is a system to breed talent, its called the ladder. Just because the ladder doesn't efficiently stack you at your true skill doesn't mean it is flawed. You aren't neccesarily becoming a better mechanical player, you are becoming better at winning games with whatever hand you are given.
If you get good at taking whatever hand given to you, would that not also make you good at winning when you can choose your hand?
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2012 07:05 iCanada wrote:
If that is the case how come say Poker hasn't ever died out?
There is a system to breed talent, its called the ladder. Just because the ladder doesn't efficiently stack you at your true skill doesn't mean it is flawed. You aren't neccesarily becoming a better mechanical player, you are becoming better at winning games with whatever hand you are given.
If you get good at taking whatever hand given to you, would that not also make you good at winning when you can choose your hand?
Poker and Starcraft aren't good comparisons because solo play isn't sufficiently different from competitive play compared to LoL/DotA.
Inhouse/competitive LoL play focuses on playing with your teammates. Often pub play is more about playing around/in spite of your teammates.
It's pretty reasonably accepted that competitive DotA and pub DotA are 2 completely different games. The attitude is slowly getting there with competitive LoL as well, but hasnt yet caught on at most levels outside of the top. There's a lack of competitive inhouse play, so unless you're on a pro team, you're pretty much out of luck if you want to play the "competitive game" and not the "solo queue game".
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On June 29 2012 07:00 TheYango wrote:
I understand your argument PrinceXizor, but you're not going to get anywhere because pretty much the entire LoL community doesn't respect the difference between "competitive play" and "pub play"--as evidenced by the fact that for a long time competitive teams treated solo queue as legitimate practice.
Essentially, what you're looking for is organized inhouse play as exists in the DotA community, but such infrastructure doesn't exist in the LoL community.
If TL built up a LoL inhouse infrastructure i'd be so happy.
On June 29 2012 07:05 iCanada wrote:
If that is the case how come say Poker hasn't ever died out?
There is a system to breed talent, its called the ladder. Just because the ladder doesn't efficiently stack you at your true skill doesn't mean it is flawed. You aren't neccesarily becoming a better mechanical player, you are becoming better at winning games with whatever hand you are given.
If you get good at taking whatever hand given to you, would that not also make you good at winning when you can choose your hand?
If you learn to fight by picking up whatever you can find you become macgyver.
If you learn to fight by practicing with a specific weapon for a long time, you become hawkeye.
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If you support a teammates stupid actions, then it was equally your mistake. You can improve by recognizing which actions are bad decisions by your teammates and keepyourself and possibly him alive.
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United States47024 Posts
The one thing I'd point out is to not overstate the difference between pub play and competitive play. While its true that they are significantly different, the overwhelming majority of relevant skills for competitive play are practiced well in solo queue. It's more of an issue of not building bad habits and keeping a good attitude.
Even in Chinese DotA, which is hugely cognizant of the differences between pub and competitive play, most pro teams scout fresh talent players from pub play.
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On June 29 2012 07:09 TheYango wrote:
It's pretty reasonably accepted that competitive DotA and pub DotA are 2 completely different games. The attitude is slowly getting there with competitive LoL as well, but hasnt yet caught on at most levels outside of the top. There's a lack of competitive inhouse play, so unless you're on a pro team, you're pretty much out of luck if you want to play the "competitive game" and not the "solo queue game".
Exactly, i feel like i'm pointing at flash and saying i wanna be like him, and everyone is telling me that all i have to do is go play BGH possible over and over. yeah the mechanics carry over but i'm not learnign Brood war. I just want someone to point me to ICCUP.
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On June 29 2012 06:47 Dgiese wrote:
It sounds like retarded teammates are pretty common for you princexizor, in which case I'm surprised you haven't worked out ways to adapt. I think Alaric had an anecdote about his teammates making a suboptimal play, but having to go along with it anyway. That's solo q, if your team listens and follows your lead, great, easy win, if they don't you have to adapt. At the Elo it sounds like you're at, it's not all that hard to capitalize off retarded teammates by using them as bait.
Sure it's not ideal, but tough shit.
I dropped nearly 200 ELO in a very short time, with completely retarded teammates(and i mean the run in 1v5 dive 3 turrets for 1 kill and trade 2 deaths blah blah kind)
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It sounds like ELO Hell qq because it is, just hidden. You don't care about ELO, just about getting better, not about ELO, but about a challenge. The only thing preventing you from doing so is your teammates dragging you down so you can't reach the proper ELO you deserve so you can actually get better and actually be challenged. You just sound whiny blaming Riot for not having a proper ladder system. Man up and shut up. You aren't playing perfectly or improving because you are inhibiting yourself. No one else. Sure some games are just a loss from the get go but that is not the case in most games.
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On June 29 2012 07:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 07:05 iCanada wrote:
If that is the case how come say Poker hasn't ever died out?
There is a system to breed talent, its called the ladder. Just because the ladder doesn't efficiently stack you at your true skill doesn't mean it is flawed. You aren't neccesarily becoming a better mechanical player, you are becoming better at winning games with whatever hand you are given.
If you get good at taking whatever hand given to you, would that not also make you good at winning when you can choose your hand? Poker and Starcraft aren't good comparisons because solo play isn't sufficiently different from competitive play compared to LoL/DotA. Inhouse/competitive LoL play focuses on playing with your teammates. Often pub play is more about playing around/in spite of your teammates. It's pretty reasonably accepted that competitive DotA and pub DotA are 2 completely different games. The attitude is slowly getting there with competitive LoL as well, but hasnt yet caught on at most levels outside of the top. There's a lack of competitive inhouse play, so unless you're on a pro team, you're pretty much out of luck if you want to play the "competitive game" and not the "solo queue game".
Of course they are different, i never said that they aren't. That doesn't necessarily mean that getting better at one doesn't improve your play in another. There is a correlation between the two, however weak it may be.
I like the poker comparison in Soloqueue a lot because it is very much the same; there are a ridiculous amount of variables in any given game for both, but if you put the pros in any level they will succeed regardless. You put Saintvicious on a 1200 elo account he will go 20+/0/20+ every game till he is in the 2000's reguardless if his teammates are more like a 1 and a seven instead of the opponents pocket rockets.
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Ahaha I forgot how OP as fuck Skarner can be if you have half a brain. I quit him when Naut came out and was all stupid strong in the jungle, but his kit is actually just too fucking good to be true. All he's really missing is E actually being worthwhile to cast and not super expensive and he'd be the most perfect champ in the game.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2012 07:23 iCanada wrote:
I like the poker comparison in Soloqueue a lot because it is very much the same; there are a ridiculous amount of variables in any given game for both, but if you put the pros in any level they will succeed regardless. You put Saintvicious on a 1200 elo account he will go 20+/0/20+ every game till he is in the 2000's reguardless if his teammates are more like a 1 and a seven instead of the opponents pocket rockets.
Poker is like solo queue sure. But solo queue is not like competitive play.
Some people like playing the "competitive/inhouse game" better, and thats fine. There's just no good infrastructure for them to really practice/play that, because nobody takes the relevant game modes that seriously. This isn't something Riot can fix--it's something that interested players have to set up the community for on their own.
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On June 29 2012 07:18 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 07:09 TheYango wrote:
It's pretty reasonably accepted that competitive DotA and pub DotA are 2 completely different games. The attitude is slowly getting there with competitive LoL as well, but hasnt yet caught on at most levels outside of the top. There's a lack of competitive inhouse play, so unless you're on a pro team, you're pretty much out of luck if you want to play the "competitive game" and not the "solo queue game". Exactly, i feel like i'm pointing at flash and saying i wanna be like him, and everyone is telling me that all i have to do is go play BGH possible over and over. yeah the mechanics carry over but i'm not learnign Brood war. I just want someone to point me to ICCUP.
What u want is ranked 5's. Find 4 like minded individuals. Play together, improve together.
Solo q ranked isn't really for improving, it's about winning, and getting a higher number. Ranked fives can be about whatever you and your four buds decide to make it about. I'd offer to play with you, but I don't have a regular enough schedule to commit.
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On June 29 2012 07:10 Slayer91 wrote:
If you support a teammates stupid actions, then it was equally your mistake. You can improve by recognizing which actions are bad decisions by your teammates and keepyourself and possibly him alive.
That's why I find it better to use poor teammates as bait at lower Elos. Sometimes they even learn a lesson mid-game that way.
@PrinceXizor, while I do think you should take a break from LoL for a while, I'll toss in some points that worked for me and haven't really been brought up.
You focus a lot on not just yourself, but also your team. While the ability to "not lose" is within yourself, the key to winning lies in the enemy (obligatory Sun Tzu reference).
At low levels, a lot of the teams I faced seemed really similar to my own, when I examined their play. There were generally four players just derping around, and one distinctly good player (maybe a smurf, maybe someone with previous moba experience, it doesn't matter). That one player will be killing your teammates and nothing you can do will save them. No matter what you say in team chat, they aren't going to understand and process a lesson in completely changing their playstyle in the game's remaining 20 minutes, and it's unreasonable to expect them to do so.
Instead, you simply have to take advantage of the players who are worse than you on the enemy team. Think of them like mini-bosses in an RPG dungeon, with the one good player being the "final boss" of his team. You gotta grab all the power you can from his cronies before facing him, but if you can become stronger than him, you've won your team's respect and probably the game. If you don't enjoy LoL enough to take the losses caused by random factors in stride, then again, I suggest taking a break--personally I can still enjoy a loss if I did well and improved on something (also, I generally play my hardest when backed into a corner).
As for your other points, it is true that the ladder is not ideal in any way for learning, but it CAN put you in a place to test what you've learned elsewhere. For me, this came from theorycrafting and trying out random builds in normals (I had played perhaps 600 normals before starting ranked), simply to see which items give you which numbers on what champions. You can also learn from the enemies that are beating you, as long as you keep in mind that their tactics have only been shown to work at the level you are currently at. Finally, Pro streams, especially when they smurf, are a great way to learn how to take advantage of bad play. It's easy to see the increased risk-taking and aggression they are able to get away with at lower levels. The learning mechanism at play is that if something isn't working (safe, high-level play), you have to try something different (pubstompy, low-level play). "But I want to get better, not pubstomp people!" one might reply. Unfortunately, "The only way to get better is by playing a better opponent," (The Fundamentals of Chess, 1885) -- and you gotta do what you gotta do to reach them.
Finally I'll repeat for a third time that sticking with any game requires enjoying what you can, and taking losses, bad luck, and criticism in stride. I've been playing for three years, but I've taken some 3-month breaks from the game when I felt burnt out. While I still can find genuine fun in solo queue ranked playing a champion I've loved since beta (Jax), the real enjoyment of LoL for me comes from theorycrafting a build and seeing it work in a game (I don't usually play more than 2-3 games in a day, but I think a lot about LoL outside of LoL). If LoL's not fun for you, then it's not the game for you.
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I would LOVE to have TL inhouses.. there are always a ton of people in Liquidparty and there are a ton of people posting here everyday, but no one says anything in liquidparty ever:\ I used to post in there asking if someone needed a duo-que partner or wanted to play draft normals, but I never got any replies.
Liquidparty inhouses, let's make it happen! Maybe we can coordinate a scheduled time in which everyone logs on with the goal being to get in house games going. I'd be willing to make a thread and manage it.
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I'm finding you guys pretty harsh on him with all the "stop deluding yourself" and "you're just QQing about Elo hell". From the way I understand it, Xizor is annoyed by the fact that he thrives to improve, in the sense of "getting closer to flawless play [in a vacuum]", while the "infrastructure" of pubgames only supply him with opportunities to "get better at making the best out of a given situation", which is vastly different the more your teammates are far from flawless play themselves. I think his lastest posts confirm this.
In that sense there's nothing wrong with his rant, and I'd tend to agree with him. I also know that I'm far more picky with the members of the ranked team I'm in than with soloQ teammates, as I expect a lot more coordination, concertation, and thus, closer-to-flawless play from their part than if we were in soloQ.
When we can't get 5 people, we hop into draft normals as 4 and ask the pub guy if he can fill the role we lack. Most of the time we trash these games. Then we hop as 5 into ranked teams and lately get trashed because our opponents are more organized than us. I'd be cool with it in soloQ since it's part of the luck of the draw (in an earlier post today I mentioned how without much concertation we set up a protect the Kog comp as 5 soloQers and naturally made it work, the teamwork and sync made it great with good atmosphere between us), but when we're as 5 people knowing each other I get mad at them more easily because you reviewed flaws in our plays but they don't always try to correct them.
I adapt to the situation in soloQ because this is how it is, but I get mad in soloQ because I want to be able to expect stuff from my teammates, and for us to improve said "stuff". If Xizor thrives for that second case too, I don't see anything wrong with him getting frustrated by how soloQ mentality works.
Yango has a good point too but I don't feel we tryhard that much in LP EU, so there may not be the proper atmosphere if we were to set inhouse on EUW. 
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EPT
