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If champions die to ganks it's usually their own fault. If the jungler in the enemy team getting kills perhaps your team needs to play more passively and smarter in laning phase when theres no wards. Ganking isn't an action you can do like in final fantasy, it relies on the opponent fucking up to work. There is aruguments for taking risks in ganking to help lanes but it's not a sure thing and farming is.
I've swapped roles with a top laner who played alistar because of a mistake in swapping and ganked a lot and got underfarmed died a lot in 2v2/ 3v3/4v4 fights and was a useless piece of shit in jungle by 15 minutes was lower level than the support. Theres no excuse for the enemy jungler getting fed. If you need to push and play agressive you should coordinate that with your jungler so he knows to invade a lot to distract the other jungler and zone him from one side of the lane so he can only gank from the other side.
If you know their laner has to play aggressive early then that's a definite reward in ganking that lane, (I'm looking at you pantheon) but usually there isn't one. Most people pick laners who are happy to afk farm if jungler is wasting time and play agressive when he ganks somewhere else.
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i think the most important quality of a jungler is presence, even doing stuff like showing yourself near a lane is enough to relieve pressure from a losing lane. There are too many situations where if you don't put down everything you're doing to camp a lane then the game will end in 20min. Getting a kill helps the solo out a lot more than it helps you. You're a shitty jungler champion who's never gonna carry a game late like your solos/ad can. The only way junglers carry games is by ganking 5 times in 10 minutes and effectively killing the game, if you're in the mindset to farm and not "overgank" you'll forever be useless unless you're content with going 1-2-5 every game with the 3rd most farm on team. Also camping top is an essential strategy for all junglers, it's basically how you win games in solo queue.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 04 2012 04:12 Seuss wrote:
It's a crutch if you're using it to just farm your own jungle. If you're using it as a defense against being attacked in your jungle, or as a way to be aggressive yourself, it's not a terrible idea (although usually if you're being aggressive you're going to be playing a jungler who can get away with an aggressive item).
K, make sure you let Lilballz know that next time he starts Cloth+5 on one of the several junglers he regularly starts Cloth+5 on.
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On May 03 2012 12:40 Two_DoWn wrote:
THE NUMBER 2 RULE OF GANKING IS NEVER SACRIFICE YOUR OWN FARM AND LEVELS BY OVER GANKING.
The single most important job that you have as a jungle is to make sure you stay viable throughout the game. Most of the time that means you have to spend a considerable amount of time farming. If your team is bitching at you for not ganking as they drop like flies in 1v1 situations, most of the time the best thing to do is just ignore them. A gank takes a LOT of time, even successful ones. The important thing to remember is that even if you get a kill, the other jungle and every other lane has been farming while you were off doing what you do. That means that the difference in gains between the 2 teams are not as high as some people think. It also means that constantly ganking is NOT a good way to play. Its always better to be smart about when you gank. Maximize the amount of time you spend farming, minimize the amount you lose when you gank. Make sure you only gank situations that have a high likelihood of success (ie a kill, forcing the enemy to base, or doing enough damage to where your lane can start to bully the enemy around). If you are initiating a gank to remind the enemy you exist and force them to back off, make sure you tell your teammate so that they don’t waste valuable cooldowns or mana on a gank you are not committed too. Make sure that your teammates in lane are ready, they have everything up that they are going to need. Remember- for them, a gank is a minute long diversion from farming. For you, its twice that long, if not more. Gank too much and you will find yourself hurting for farm and levels very badly.
The best thing about cyclohexane's age of empires 3 guide was that it was completely objective. When you look at mojo stormscout's warcraft 3 guide or the starcraft BW guide on the BW site you see a lot of great information, but you also see things like "get lots of scouts. They good vs zealots cuz zealots can't look up." I read the title of this section and I realized that this guide would not be objective at all.
I don't like subjective guides and I think that they outdate quickly even if what's said in them is popular consent at the time of publication.
But what T_D's saying isn't even popular consent. I think a lot of people like to gank as much as possible and when they don't gank (warwick, shaco) lose out.
When you talk about farming instead of ganking, just illustrate how much farm is lost in a gank (use an example) and the potential benefits of a kill in ganking and just farming. Don't try to say one is definitely better than the other.
Craton shouldn't even say that it's a smart idea to pull dragon in his guide. He should say that pulling dragon is an option that can be smart because for the cost of a few seconds where you can't attack dragon, and a little damage, you can retreat more quickly if attacked and you reduce the likelihood of flash steals.
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I play on the farm side too but it's definitely the easier way to play and I do my best to help losing lanes more lately but you have to really try if they are decent players they don;t just loldie without wards.
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You don't even have to get a kill in most top lanes and some mid lanes for it to be a successful gank, hell you don't even have to hit them once or make them use a summoner. Just having them back off for a wave of creeps early on can be a big boost for your solo laners. Obviously this matters less as people get higher levels, but early on when it means your allied player hits a level a fair bit ahead of his opponent it can be massive(lvl2, lvl3 and lvl6 often being the biggest ones, but any early level matters a lot). So unless you are giving up an important buff to the enemy Jungler by showing yourself top too long its prolly worth it even if it puts you behind slightly personally.
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I dislike how you didn't lay out any consequence for keeping the blue buff for yourself. If mid is facing someone who is being fed blue and they are not already significantly ahead, as long as the opposing mid plays it right, they can convert this to a tangible advantage in almost all match-ups. To simply say if you are behind consider keeping blue for yourself is a dangerous proposition, you are possibly converting 1 losing match-up into 2. (at best blue will help you pull even as a jungle esp on a jungle that clears quickly regardless)
Honestly I know how to play within my mana limitations, the problem has never been greed although it is often implied that by junglers, the problem has always been, that the other mid might get it, in which case you are fucked. I will give you credit for mentioning the bonus of mid ganks if you do choose to transfer, but again I make the counter argument, if you are behind, why not allow your mid to do what you are too weak to(gank).
This of course is all assuming your mid isn't already terribly behind and being farmed by the opposing jungler, and you've mentioned that this is supposed to be a beginners guide, also that you and I have had this exact discussion in the past and it ended in agree to disagree, but it scares me to think that a jungler on my team would think there is no consequence other than no ganks from mid when they keep the blue.
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On May 04 2012 06:42 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 12:40 Two_DoWn wrote:
THE NUMBER 2 RULE OF GANKING IS NEVER SACRIFICE YOUR OWN FARM AND LEVELS BY OVER GANKING.
The single most important job that you have as a jungle is to make sure you stay viable throughout the game. Most of the time that means you have to spend a considerable amount of time farming. If your team is bitching at you for not ganking as they drop like flies in 1v1 situations, most of the time the best thing to do is just ignore them. A gank takes a LOT of time, even successful ones. The important thing to remember is that even if you get a kill, the other jungle and every other lane has been farming while you were off doing what you do. That means that the difference in gains between the 2 teams are not as high as some people think. It also means that constantly ganking is NOT a good way to play. Its always better to be smart about when you gank. Maximize the amount of time you spend farming, minimize the amount you lose when you gank. Make sure you only gank situations that have a high likelihood of success (ie a kill, forcing the enemy to base, or doing enough damage to where your lane can start to bully the enemy around). If you are initiating a gank to remind the enemy you exist and force them to back off, make sure you tell your teammate so that they don’t waste valuable cooldowns or mana on a gank you are not committed too. Make sure that your teammates in lane are ready, they have everything up that they are going to need. Remember- for them, a gank is a minute long diversion from farming. For you, its twice that long, if not more. Gank too much and you will find yourself hurting for farm and levels very badly.
The best thing about cyclohexane's age of empires 3 guide was that it was completely objective. When you look at mojo stormscout's warcraft 3 guide or the starcraft BW guide on the BW site you see a lot of great information, but you also see things like "get lots of scouts. They good vs zealots cuz zealots can't look up." I read the title of this section and I realized that this guide would not be objective at all. I don't like subjective guides and I think that they outdate quickly even if what's said in them is popular consent at the time of publication. But what T_D's saying isn't even popular consent. I think a lot of people like to gank as much as possible and when they don't gank (warwick, shaco) lose out. When you talk about farming instead of ganking, just illustrate how much farm is lost in a gank (use an example) and the potential benefits of a kill in ganking and just farming. Don't try to say one is definitely better than the other. Craton shouldn't even say that it's a smart idea to pull dragon in his guide. He should say that pulling dragon is an option that can be smart because for the cost of a few seconds where you can't attack dragon, and a little damage, you can retreat more quickly if attacked and you reduce the likelihood of flash steals.
People arent actually READING what I wrote. If you look carefully, you will note that the rule is OVER ganking, not ganking in general. The purpose of the paragraph is to enumerate the cost of ganking because a new jungler will often go out, see 300 gold pop up when they get a kill, and think "oh hey, this is pretty cool, imma keep doing this." The benefits for ganking are fairly obvious. What I wanted to talk about were the COSTS, which a lot of new junglers dont understand exist.
In my experience, the #1 problem that new junglers have is that they focus too much on killing champions and ganking and too little time farming, even on champions like lee sin and shaco.
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On May 04 2012 06:50 Nafaltar wrote:
You don't even have to get a kill in most top lanes and some mid lanes for it to be a successful gank, hell you don't even have to hit them once or make them use a summoner. Just having them back off for a wave of creeps early on can be a big boost for your solo laners. Obviously this matters less as people get higher levels, but early on when it means your allied player hits a level a fair bit ahead of his opponent it can be massive(lvl2, lvl3 and lvl6 often being the biggest ones, but any early level matters a lot). So unless you are giving up an important buff to the enemy Jungler by showing yourself top too long its prolly worth it even if it puts you behind slightly personally.
Even if you aren't counter-jungled (which is a very large threat on level 2 ganks) the cost is high. Beyond the cost in farm the knowledge of your location allows the other lanes to be more aggressive and better predict your movements. If you don't at least force a summoner or recall the gank is likely to come at an overall cost to your team. A 25 second gank can easily mean an 80+ gold loss for you, the jungler.
On May 04 2012 07:49 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:42 obesechicken13 wrote:On May 03 2012 12:40 Two_DoWn wrote:
THE NUMBER 2 RULE OF GANKING IS NEVER SACRIFICE YOUR OWN FARM AND LEVELS BY OVER GANKING.
The single most important job that you have as a jungle is to make sure you stay viable throughout the game. Most of the time that means you have to spend a considerable amount of time farming. If your team is bitching at you for not ganking as they drop like flies in 1v1 situations, most of the time the best thing to do is just ignore them. A gank takes a LOT of time, even successful ones. The important thing to remember is that even if you get a kill, the other jungle and every other lane has been farming while you were off doing what you do. That means that the difference in gains between the 2 teams are not as high as some people think. It also means that constantly ganking is NOT a good way to play. Its always better to be smart about when you gank. Maximize the amount of time you spend farming, minimize the amount you lose when you gank. Make sure you only gank situations that have a high likelihood of success (ie a kill, forcing the enemy to base, or doing enough damage to where your lane can start to bully the enemy around). If you are initiating a gank to remind the enemy you exist and force them to back off, make sure you tell your teammate so that they don’t waste valuable cooldowns or mana on a gank you are not committed too. Make sure that your teammates in lane are ready, they have everything up that they are going to need. Remember- for them, a gank is a minute long diversion from farming. For you, its twice that long, if not more. Gank too much and you will find yourself hurting for farm and levels very badly.
The best thing about cyclohexane's age of empires 3 guide was that it was completely objective. When you look at mojo stormscout's warcraft 3 guide or the starcraft BW guide on the BW site you see a lot of great information, but you also see things like "get lots of scouts. They good vs zealots cuz zealots can't look up." I read the title of this section and I realized that this guide would not be objective at all. I don't like subjective guides and I think that they outdate quickly even if what's said in them is popular consent at the time of publication. But what T_D's saying isn't even popular consent. I think a lot of people like to gank as much as possible and when they don't gank (warwick, shaco) lose out. When you talk about farming instead of ganking, just illustrate how much farm is lost in a gank (use an example) and the potential benefits of a kill in ganking and just farming. Don't try to say one is definitely better than the other. Craton shouldn't even say that it's a smart idea to pull dragon in his guide. He should say that pulling dragon is an option that can be smart because for the cost of a few seconds where you can't attack dragon, and a little damage, you can retreat more quickly if attacked and you reduce the likelihood of flash steals. People arent actually READING what I wrote. If you look carefully, you will note that the rule is OVER ganking, not ganking in general. The purpose of the paragraph is to enumerate the cost of ganking because a new jungler will often go out, see 300 gold pop up when they get a kill, and think "oh hey, this is pretty cool, imma keep doing this." The benefits for ganking are fairly obvious. What I wanted to talk about were the COSTS, which a lot of new junglers dont understand exist. In my experience, the #1 problem that new junglers have is that they focus too much on killing champions and ganking and too little time farming, even on champions like lee sin and shaco.
I don't think you read what he wrote. He made a number of good suggestions such as quantifying the cost of ganking and avoiding unnecessary subjectivity. The point being that there isn't an objective point we can all agree upon where ganking becomes over-ganking, and the best you can do is provide the tools and knowledge for players to figure that out themselves.
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One thing you might want to add is watching how each lane is pushing, and how pushed/how many minions there are. Ganking top when there's a 14 creep wave of death stampeding towards your laner's tower early on is still going to be difficult. Sure the other guy is going to be pushed up, but he has enough minions that your laner is going to have a very hard time assisting the gank and could even put your laner behind if he misses the creeps before they wash up against tower or takes too much damage from the creeps.
Ideally you want to arrive at a lane when it's pushed towards your tower and without much more than 1-1.5 creep waves. Being in position for this involves watching how each lane is pushing and then planning accordingly.
Finally there's stuff like helping your laner push EXTREMELY hard after a successful gank to let your minions wash up against the tower so you can buy safely and gain an advantage. (Only do this at higher elo's, I've had people in normals report me for taking their lane CS when I'm actually trying to help....)
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On May 04 2012 08:24 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:50 Nafaltar wrote:
You don't even have to get a kill in most top lanes and some mid lanes for it to be a successful gank, hell you don't even have to hit them once or make them use a summoner. Just having them back off for a wave of creeps early on can be a big boost for your solo laners. Obviously this matters less as people get higher levels, but early on when it means your allied player hits a level a fair bit ahead of his opponent it can be massive(lvl2, lvl3 and lvl6 often being the biggest ones, but any early level matters a lot). So unless you are giving up an important buff to the enemy Jungler by showing yourself top too long its prolly worth it even if it puts you behind slightly personally. Even if you aren't counter-jungled (which is a very large threat on level 2 ganks) the cost is high. Beyond the cost in farm the knowledge of your location allows the other lanes to be more aggressive and better predict your movements. If you don't at least force a summoner or recall the gank is likely to come at an overall cost to your team. A 25 second gank can easily mean an 80+ gold loss for you, the jungler. [
25 secs is waiting out a whole creep wave pretty much, so 114+ gold. I mean it definitely depends on the matchup, but say you have a Riven vs WW top, and you come in after your red buff at lvl 2 for second wave. If the WW backs of into safety its fine to stay arround a bit, even if he stays safe Riven will just wail on WW all game from then on, while normally WW can chug pots early to farm up enough armor to make it so Riven can't actually engage him any more without taking her sweet time harassing him down slowly. Of course if its Something like Kennen vs WW you prolly won't gain your team as much as you lose. And once people are post6 then the advantage shrinks aswell. But its totally fine even then to run to top even if you more or less know its warded and you likely can't gank there after clearing your jungle if mid isn't open for a gank and you ended up on your Golems. More so if you can recall in an unwarded brush afterwards which leaves the enemy top guessing if you are still there or already went back.
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On May 04 2012 09:13 Nafaltar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 08:24 Seuss wrote:On May 04 2012 06:50 Nafaltar wrote:
You don't even have to get a kill in most top lanes and some mid lanes for it to be a successful gank, hell you don't even have to hit them once or make them use a summoner. Just having them back off for a wave of creeps early on can be a big boost for your solo laners. Obviously this matters less as people get higher levels, but early on when it means your allied player hits a level a fair bit ahead of his opponent it can be massive(lvl2, lvl3 and lvl6 often being the biggest ones, but any early level matters a lot). So unless you are giving up an important buff to the enemy Jungler by showing yourself top too long its prolly worth it even if it puts you behind slightly personally. Even if you aren't counter-jungled (which is a very large threat on level 2 ganks) the cost is high. Beyond the cost in farm the knowledge of your location allows the other lanes to be more aggressive and better predict your movements. If you don't at least force a summoner or recall the gank is likely to come at an overall cost to your team. A 25 second gank can easily mean an 80+ gold loss for you, the jungler. [ 25 secs is waiting out a whole creep wave pretty much, so 114+ gold. I mean it definitely depends on the matchup, but say you have a Riven vs WW top, and you come in after your red buff at lvl 2 for second wave. If the WW backs of into safety its fine to stay arround a bit, even if he stays safe Riven will just wail on WW all game from then on, while normally WW can chug pots early to farm up enough armor to make it so Riven can't actually engage him any more without taking her sweet time harassing him down slowly. Of course if its Something like Kennen vs WW you prolly won't gain your team as much as you lose. And once people are post6 then the advantage shrinks aswell. But its totally fine even then to run to top even if you more or less know its warded and you likely can't gank there after clearing your jungle if mid isn't open for a gank and you ended up on your Golems. More so if you can recall in an unwarded brush afterwards which leaves the enemy top guessing if you are still there or already went back.
When I said 25 seconds I was including time spent going to and from the lane. If you actively sit in the bush for 25 seconds the cost goes much higher, 150g+ not including the advantage you're giving the other lanes/enemy jungler.
So even if your mere presence zones the enemy so they can not farm, you're still losing with or without being counter-jungled. It takes very extreme situations for that course of action to make sense.
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I mean you obviously aren't aiming to not get anything, but in a lane that can be snowballed either way (and that is a ton of top lane matchups) it can be well worth it to sacrifice jungler power if you get even a slight advantage for your top if he can exploit it. It also depends on the jungler in question ofc, it makes much less sense on a WW than it does on a Maokai as one needs lvl 6 for great ganks while the other one mostly wants farm for items/and late game levels.
150 gold is a complete clear of "your" 3 small camps in the jungle. Which unless you get counter jungled means you have to spend a minute or more depending on the clear state of the jungle and your clear speed for various camps. Which means it also depends on the side you are playing for, if you are on purple side you really only open up your Blue+Wolves for counterjungling, if blue is up the important buffs asterisk applies and if it is not you are merely risking your wolves, which honestly don't lose you a ton even if counter jungled as it takes the enemy some time to run over there and back out again. On blue side ganking top obviously opens up both wraiths and golems, so its a bit more problematic there.
Anyway I don't mean it as a rule that you should zone people and be happy, but just because you can't kill a champ reliably doesn't mean ganking is a waste. It makes the opponent back off, it keeps him honest with wards and it protects your top a little while you are about.
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The single biggest thing that has improved my jungling is communication in the game. Try to set up a specific gank in the lobby or early in the game while checking bushes. If you have a stun on your champ (udyr or something) and so does your mid, an aggressive flash at level 2 or 3 can result in a first blood. Just trying to land it hoping your team follows up from a ping can be iffy. Telling them you're going to flash stun, and to follow up w/ their stun/ignite whatever is a great way to ensure that kill and FB. Ask lanes about wards, get them in the habit of telling you if they've seen them placed or timer on them is great. Encouraging your team for information is huuuge.
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Extremely informative and well written post. Cleared a couple misconceptions I had about being a jungler. Thank you ^^
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I started playing lol recently. With this last weeks free heroes I've been playing master yi and trying to jungle. Specifically, I've been using this guide:
http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=3478
I have several questions though. First off, he suggests starting with the minigolems to get lvl 2, but I have found that killing these does not lvl me up. Is this a change in the map, or do I need to make other players move farther away?
Also, I was wondering about dieing on the gank. Specifically, I thought that I gain a team edge by sacrificing myself to kill a solo opponent in a lane because it means my teammate in that lane will take a large exp and gold lead. Obviously, I would prefer to get the kill w/o dieing, but is my logic wrong?
Most importantly, I find it difficult to evaluate my games afterwards. With Master Yi, I will always eventually end up with the most minion kills by the end of my games. I usually am ahead around the time I get into the 50-70 kill region. This may be because the lvl I'm playing at isn't very good, or it may be champion specific, but idk. Games often end one sidedly, and I have a hard time telling how much of that is my doing well or failing or just the rest of my team doing well/failing. Perhaps this is a question for any role, but I feel it is especially difficult to tell for junglers.
I like to dip into lanes whenever I see a chance (I try to gank but find the enemy too pulled back, an ally dies, a turret of ours is under fire). I try not to stay long, but I net a few quick kills and lvl faster. Is this bad because they are kills my teammate is not getting? If it helps my teammate to push forward or encourages the enemy to play more cautious, does that make it worth it? You say that my appearance can turn a lane even if I don't get a kill, but I'm uncertain if I am defeating my role by making that presence and stealing my teammates farm.
People talk as though there are set times that I must gank. I once ganked and killed a solo top around 9 minutes, and my ally in top insulted me for my nonstandard timing. What are the standard timings at which I am expected to support another lane by default.
Lastly, late game is curious for me. I've found that I can often go off and solo a turret or two if the entire enemy team is attacking my base. Sometimes I do this to try to force them to come back or to kill an inhibitor and try to give us the edge in some lane. I feel like this is very strong in some games, but allys have gotten angry at me for not staying with the team. However, I only do it after the 5 on 5 team fight has gone poorly for us repeatedly. I'm certainthis startegy is valid, but I would like it if you could discuss when it is best implemented and how to best follow it up. i.e. is it better to try to kill 2 inhibitors or 1 followed by nexus turrets?
Thanks to anyone that reads this overly long post and can answer any of it.
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On May 26 2012 17:44 phyren wrote:I started playing lol recently. With this last weeks free heroes I've been playing master yi and trying to jungle. Specifically, I've been using this guide: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=3478I have several questions though. First off, he suggests starting with the minigolems to get lvl 2, but I have found that killing these does not lvl me up. Is this a change in the map, or do I need to make other players move farther away? Also, I was wondering about dieing on the gank. Specifically, I thought that I gain a team edge by sacrificing myself to kill a solo opponent in a lane because it means my teammate in that lane will take a large exp and gold lead. Obviously, I would prefer to get the kill w/o dieing, but is my logic wrong? Most importantly, I find it difficult to evaluate my games afterwards. With Master Yi, I will always eventually end up with the most minion kills by the end of my games. I usually am ahead around the time I get into the 50-70 kill region. This may be because the lvl I'm playing at isn't very good, or it may be champion specific, but idk. Games often end one sidedly, and I have a hard time telling how much of that is my doing well or failing or just the rest of my team doing well/failing. Perhaps this is a question for any role, but I feel it is especially difficult to tell for junglers. I like to dip into lanes whenever I see a chance (I try to gank but find the enemy too pulled back, an ally dies, a turret of ours is under fire). I try not to stay long, but I net a few quick kills and lvl faster. Is this bad because they are kills my teammate is not getting? If it helps my teammate to push forward or encourages the enemy to play more cautious, does that make it worth it? You say that my appearance can turn a lane even if I don't get a kill, but I'm uncertain if I am defeating my role by making that presence and stealing my teammates farm. People talk as though there are set times that I must gank. I once ganked and killed a solo top around 9 minutes, and my ally in top insulted me for my nonstandard timing. What are the standard timings at which I am expected to support another lane by default. Lastly, late game is curious for me. I've found that I can often go off and solo a turret or two if the entire enemy team is attacking my base. Sometimes I do this to try to force them to come back or to kill an inhibitor and try to give us the edge in some lane. I feel like this is very strong in some games, but allys have gotten angry at me for not staying with the team. However, I only do it after the 5 on 5 team fight has gone poorly for us repeatedly. I'm certainthis startegy is valid, but I would like it if you could discuss when it is best implemented and how to best follow it up. i.e. is it better to try to kill 2 inhibitors or 1 followed by nexus turrets? Thanks to anyone that reads this overly long post and can answer any of it.
That guide is kinda outdated I think. Jungle paths are usually wolves->blue->wraiths->wolves->full clear, wraiths->red->full clear, or some variation of those two.
In terms of sacrificing for a kill in a lane, it's very situational. Say after you kill them and die your ally is able to immediately push the wave into their tower, forcing the opponent to lose several waves of cs/exp then it's probably worth it. But say you have double buff and your ally was already winning the lane; dying in a gank probably wouldn't be worth it. Every situation is different, but dying during a gank is only okay if your ally can take advantage of your sacrifice. Even then, like you said, it's better to simply not die. When you die, you give their opponent gold/exp, which can be used to help them catch back up.
Ways to evaluation your impact is the superficial kdr, but also stuff like how many successful ganks (kills and/or forcing the opponent back) did you pull off? How are you performing relative to the enemy jungler in terms of KDA and cs? Were you a factor in helping your lanes win? How much map control did you assert and what did you do with it (like stealing buffs and taking dragons)?
Showing up in lane when your ally isn't there is almost always a good thing. Lane gives more gold/exp than the jungle and if your ally isn't there it's cs that would've been lost otherwise. If your ally is dead or back, they're not getting the cs anyways so it's better for you to get it. That being said, do NOT EVER freeze or cause the lane to be frozen outside the enemy turret that would expose them to a gank. If you are going to push, make sure you push it completely to the enemy tower so the lane will reset by the time your ally gets back to lane. This should be relatively easy to do, as most top-tier junglers have some form of strong aoe. A lot of times at low elo people will scream at you for "taking their cs" and "pushing their lane". As long as you reset the wave so it's not stuck outside the enemy tower, feel free to ignore them. If you can't or aren't sure if you can reset the wave by shoving it all the way to the enemy tower, then just play it safe and only last hit. It's always good to apply pressure to enemy lanes. A gank is successful if you get a kill, force them back, burn a summoner spell, or simply just make them miss lots of cs since they're very cautious. What you shouldn't do is show up, take some cs, and leave without pressuring the enemy laner. Generally, you don't want to take cs from a lane if your ally is there unless you forced the enemy back and you're trying to push the wave to their tower.
There are no "standard timings" for ganks. Your ally was an idiot. The only "standard" gank timing is the lvl 2 gank immediately after the jungler takes their first buff. Every other gank after that is based almost purely on the position of the creep wave, relative strengths of the laners/junglers, and other such factors.
Late game, it's almost always better to stay with your team especially in lower levels where people tend to do stupid things and get caught. That being said, sometimes split pushing a lane by yourself can be better than staying with your team. If you know your team can hold a 4v5 at your tower and you're playing a strong pusher, split pushign when the enemy team is stalled outside your towers can be a very good way to gain an advantage by taking some free towers. At lower levels especially, people in solo queue tend to be very bad at coordinating and dealing with split pushing. Usually what happens is they either ignore you and you get free towers, they all retreat and you basically single handedly stopped their push, or they panic and do something stupid. What you absolutely must keep in mind though, however, is whether or not your team can successfully hold them off at your own towers. You also have to be careful not to get caught and give up a free kill; to that end, you need good ward coverage and/or map awareness.
EDIT: If you know you guys can't win straight 5v5 fights for whatever reason, split pushing would be the way to go. It forces the enemy team to respond either by barreling down a lane faster than you can uncontested to take towers/inhibs while your team defends, or it forces them to split up, which will weaken their team fighting capabilities.
Generally if you have a lead, you want to take inhibs, turrets, and baron. Which ones are better than the others is debatable. You want to do what will give you the most gain for the least risk (usually). Turrets reduce the enemy's map control, which lets you contest buffs and objectives. Inhibitors lock down a lane, which lets you effectively ignore that part of the map so you can pressure another part of the map, while the enemy team has to constantly worry about the threat of mega creep. Baron gives you a large exp/gold lead and essentially gives you 4 minutes of the other team not being able to fight you outside towers (assuming no one gets caught ofc). Taking nexus turrets is risky and should only be done if you are strong enough to finish the game and/or tank two turrets. This means you can usually only do it when the other team has 2+ members down or you guys are just massively ahead.
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On May 26 2012 18:07 Ryuu314 wrote:
Ways to evaluation your impact is the superficial kdr, but also stuff like how many successful ganks (kills and/or forcing the opponent back) did you pull off? How are you performing relative to the enemy jungler in terms of KDA and cs? Were you a factor in helping your lanes win? How much map control did you assert and what did you do with it (like stealing buffs and taking dragons)?
This is what I have a hard time telling. I just play the solo queue, so there usually isn't an enemy jungler to compare myself too. I might help to kill a turret here or there, but its impossible to say if it would have gone down without me or maybe gone down faster if I had simply played in lane. I use wriggles to ward buffs and gank routes, but its generally a team activity to take baron/dragon.
The point is, I think playing in a lane, you know if you are winning your lane or not. AP and AD characters either win the team fight with their burst or don't. With the jungle, I know if I am helping a teammate at the moment or if I get a kill or not, but I don't know how much that really helps. How many ganks I get or how much cs I let my teammate get by not laneing are things that will vary greatly from game to game, so I don't really know how to compare and see if I've progressed.
I think the random teams might also be making it difficult to improve. I can sometimes tell that another player is clearly doing very well, but they are playing a character I never have, and I don't have the time to watch them constantly to see what they are doing. Other times, I have a teammate that is very outspoken, but I have no idea if they actually know what they are talking about.
Maybe the rated matches would be better as I gather they assign an elo ranking to measure skill, but I've found the LoL community to be pretty angry and intolerant of beginners. Also, I'm only lvl 14 and haven't purchased anything like runes or champion unlocks.
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I just came here to say that jungling does not give you 4 fully farmed heros vs 3. Jungle heros only get a nice amount of gold if they get lots of ganks, the weak jungle gold and ex riot has gone with forces you to do a dps jungle if you wish to have even a decent amount of gold
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EPT
