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I think this guide doesn't give enough respect to "over-ganking" especially in very snowball-y lanes like top. (rarely warded early game) Sure if you just randomly show up to lanes its bad but calculated over ganking can mean you can sit back and farm later when normally you might have 3 feeding lanes.
Counterjungling section might be a bit overblown most junglers are fine against anyone and counterjungling is only really dangerous if you dont account for it, gank too much unsucessfully, or their laners are dominating yours. (m5 style, rarely happens in solo queue people dominating lanes just push and die instead of warding and stealing red)
Although honestly I feel people or at least me only know the 10% of there is to know about jungling right now.
I started counterjungling more in the sense of stealing camps and leaving one when the jungler shows himself somewhere else but even then sometimes it's needed to have presence so he can't just keep camping that lane.
Especially when you mention WW, who is my mind is one of the most gank dependent junglers. He farms everythingly slowly is one of the best gankers and is super farm dependent.
Then again counterjungling might be the best strat versus over ganking early. (if he gets kills its not tho) God damn this shit can be complicated.
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On May 04 2012 02:18 Slayer91 wrote:
I think this guide doesn't give enough respect to "over-ganking" especially in very snowball-y lanes like top. (rarely warded early game) Sure if you just randomly show up to lanes its bad but calculated over ganking can mean you can sit back and farm later when normally you might have 3 feeding lanes.
Counterjungling section might be a bit overblown most junglers are fine against anyone and counterjungling is only really dangerous if you dont account for it, gank too much unsucessfully, or their laners are dominating yours. (m5 style, rarely happens in solo queue people dominating lanes just push and die instead of warding and stealing red)
Although honestly I feel people or at least me only know the 10% of there is to know about jungling right now.
I started counterjungling more in the sense of stealing camps and leaving one when the jungler shows himself somewhere else but even then sometimes it's needed to have presence so he can't just keep camping that lane.
Especially when you mention WW, who is my mind is one of the most gank dependent junglers. He farms everythingly slowly is one of the best gankers and is super farm dependent.
This is all definitly true.
But the main question I started out with was: "how do I teach someone who has no idea what jungling IS how to not be dead weight?" This means that quite a bit of more advanced stuff like camping top really doesnt have a place IMO, and why a lot of what I say seems silly to anyone who knows what they are doing.
Its also why I was so heavy into explaining counterjungling and going so far as to cross post my anti counterjungling guide: its really easy to be abused when you are starting out, so the faster you realize what is going on the better off you will be.
And again, I think I speak for everyone here when I say I would rather have a jungler who keeps up in farm and levels, even at the expense of ganking, than a jungle who ganks a ton and ends up super behind. Thats the approach I took. The first is easy to fix and comes naturally with experience, the second is a fundimental flaw in someones jungling.
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Thank you so much TD!
I actually don't know how to jungle, this cleared it up a lot.
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On May 04 2012 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:18 Slayer91 wrote:
I think this guide doesn't give enough respect to "over-ganking" especially in very snowball-y lanes like top. (rarely warded early game) Sure if you just randomly show up to lanes its bad but calculated over ganking can mean you can sit back and farm later when normally you might have 3 feeding lanes.
Counterjungling section might be a bit overblown most junglers are fine against anyone and counterjungling is only really dangerous if you dont account for it, gank too much unsucessfully, or their laners are dominating yours. (m5 style, rarely happens in solo queue people dominating lanes just push and die instead of warding and stealing red)
Although honestly I feel people or at least me only know the 10% of there is to know about jungling right now.
I started counterjungling more in the sense of stealing camps and leaving one when the jungler shows himself somewhere else but even then sometimes it's needed to have presence so he can't just keep camping that lane.
Especially when you mention WW, who is my mind is one of the most gank dependent junglers. He farms everythingly slowly is one of the best gankers and is super farm dependent. This is all definitly true. And again, I think I speak for everyone here when I say I would rather have a jungler who keeps up in farm and levels, even at the expense of ganking, than a jungle who ganks a ton and ends up super behind. Thats the approach I took. The first is easy to fix and comes naturally with experience, the second is a fundimental flaw in someones jungling.
While it is true that I'd rather have a jungler who did nothing than a jungler who did nothing useful + is also underleveled, I I thinking over-ganking and then toning it down to squeeze out more farm is a better method to learning jungle than the opposite. I find that the more you attempt to gank, the more obvious good ganking opportunities arise.
People who recently started jungling might not see a potential gank unless the enemy is already knocking up at the tower. A good jungler might start seeing gank opportunities on mid champions who haven't even moved up to the river yet.
Not to mention, you're simply going to get way more easy wins by getting off good ganks than by afk farming the jungle.
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You win more games of SC2 by 6 pooling than you do by playing macro games. It doesnt make you a better player.
Its the same as laning. You learn to last hit, THEN you learn to take advantage of stupidity. Sure, randomly getting 3 kills in lane or in jungle is gonna help you win a game, but last hitting properly or farming properly will win you many more.
And it is MUCH easier to scale back farming than it is to scale back aggression. Everything in jungling is based on timing. Buffs, camps, dragon, baron. Learn the timing of the jungle itself first, then find the gaps where you can gank. Especially when dealing with slower junglers. Its better to operate under the assumption that "imma farm first and gank when the opportunity arises" than "imma try to force stuff to happen."
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None of this ever happens when T_D is my jungler. Except the afk farming =]
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The thing though is that there are tons of opportunities that ARE 100% guaranteed to turn into an advantage to your team that wouldn't occur to you if you aren't very proactive in looking for them, or ganks that you think will work but are too afraid to try because you are worried about losing valuable farming time to try them.
I'd say your method is far more akin to 6-pooling because you're just training to look for the easy and obvious ganks.
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Jungling is a lot harder than it looks sometimes.
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On May 04 2012 03:28 Juicyfruit wrote:
The thing though is that there are tons of opportunities that ARE 100% guaranteed to turn into an advantage to your team that wouldn't occur to you if you aren't very proactive in looking for them, or ganks that you think will work but are too afraid to try because you are worried about losing valuable farming time to try them.
I'd say your method is far more akin to 6-pooling because you're just training to look for the easy and obvious ganks.
WTF? How is taking the low risk high reward path like 6-pooling?
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On May 04 2012 03:39 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:28 Juicyfruit wrote:
The thing though is that there are tons of opportunities that ARE 100% guaranteed to turn into an advantage to your team that wouldn't occur to you if you aren't very proactive in looking for them, or ganks that you think will work but are too afraid to try because you are worried about losing valuable farming time to try them.
I'd say your method is far more akin to 6-pooling because you're just training to look for the easy and obvious ganks. WTF? How is taking the low risk high reward path like 6-pooling?
It's not about the risk to reward, it's about following a pattern and not being creative.
But I'd say afk-farming is more like low-risk low-reward.
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On May 04 2012 03:43 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:39 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 03:28 Juicyfruit wrote:
The thing though is that there are tons of opportunities that ARE 100% guaranteed to turn into an advantage to your team that wouldn't occur to you if you aren't very proactive in looking for them, or ganks that you think will work but are too afraid to try because you are worried about losing valuable farming time to try them.
I'd say your method is far more akin to 6-pooling because you're just training to look for the easy and obvious ganks. WTF? How is taking the low risk high reward path like 6-pooling? It's not about the risk to reward, it's about following a pattern and not being creative. But I'd say afk-farming is more like low-risk low-reward.
... This is a guide to teach people HOW to do something when they dont know how. It isnt about getting "creative." Its about the basics.
And you SERIOUSLY have problems if you think that farming the jungle is low-reward. Suddenly all the shit you take from TL B about your jungling makes more sense 
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The difference is
AFK-Farming as in just farming camps and not thinking about ganks
and "AFK-farming" which is when lanes are playing smart and there's a large amount of effort time and timing going into even getting the lane to force a flash. People complain about junglers "never ganking" but when do you see competitive level junglers get more than 1-2 kills from ganks? Very rarely.
That said farming in 1400 games where nobody has any idea how to play safe versus junglers is bad play because you need to learn to take any an all opportunities because in high level play they don't come often.
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And it isnt as though I'm saying never gank. I mean, multiple times I state how to gank and that you need to always look for oportunities. But establishing a good base where you learn how to farm is much more important than completely skipping farming to try to gank everywhere at once. Its easier to tone back farming than it is to tone back ganking, especially with all the pressure junglers get from lanes begging for ganks.
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On May 04 2012 03:47 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:43 Juicyfruit wrote:On May 04 2012 03:39 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 03:28 Juicyfruit wrote:
The thing though is that there are tons of opportunities that ARE 100% guaranteed to turn into an advantage to your team that wouldn't occur to you if you aren't very proactive in looking for them, or ganks that you think will work but are too afraid to try because you are worried about losing valuable farming time to try them.
I'd say your method is far more akin to 6-pooling because you're just training to look for the easy and obvious ganks. WTF? How is taking the low risk high reward path like 6-pooling? It's not about the risk to reward, it's about following a pattern and not being creative. But I'd say afk-farming is more like low-risk low-reward. ... This is a guide to teach people HOW to do something when they dont know how. It isnt about getting "creative." Its about the basics. And you SERIOUSLY have problems if you think that farming the jungle is low-reward. Suddenly all the shit you take from TL B about your jungling makes more sense
Farming the jungle is low-reward. How could you possibly define it as high-reward when it's the baseline.
I will just agree to disagree with you on this one. I think it's easier to squeeze farm into your jungling pattern once you have a really good feel of what you can get out of each gank (which involves attempting more ganks than you probably should). You think the opposite.
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i definitely think not farming enough is probably the biggest thing that noob junglers fail at, im sure everyone at low elo has had that jungler on their team that is useless regardless of successful ganks because they have ~40 cs at 20 minutes.
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On May 04 2012 03:55 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:47 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 03:43 Juicyfruit wrote:On May 04 2012 03:39 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 03:28 Juicyfruit wrote:
The thing though is that there are tons of opportunities that ARE 100% guaranteed to turn into an advantage to your team that wouldn't occur to you if you aren't very proactive in looking for them, or ganks that you think will work but are too afraid to try because you are worried about losing valuable farming time to try them.
I'd say your method is far more akin to 6-pooling because you're just training to look for the easy and obvious ganks. WTF? How is taking the low risk high reward path like 6-pooling? It's not about the risk to reward, it's about following a pattern and not being creative. But I'd say afk-farming is more like low-risk low-reward. ... This is a guide to teach people HOW to do something when they dont know how. It isnt about getting "creative." Its about the basics. And you SERIOUSLY have problems if you think that farming the jungle is low-reward. Suddenly all the shit you take from TL B about your jungling makes more sense You're making it sound like it's hard to kill jungle camps. I agree that you should be getting control of the important objectives, but aside from that it doesn't take hours of practice to kill wolves/wraiths/double golems. Farming the jungle is low-reward. How could you possibly define it as high-reward when it's the baseline.
No, baseline is not getting any farm. i.e dying a ton, not converting when constantly ganking, ect. I have seen jungles do this. Hell, I have dont that when getting counterjungled super hard. That is the baseline. Farming above that is not the base, its GOOD.
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It takes 5-minutes to learn how to farm the jungle, it's literally the single easiest part of LoL. You kill the camps, then you kill the camps again, repeat forever. This isn't like last-hitting where you can practice for hours and still need more practice, clearing and reclearing the small camps in the jungle is about as stupidly easy as anything in a video game gets.
I've had far more pain, toil, sweat, blood, and tears over dragging newbie junglers away from the small camps to gank/counter-gank/take an objective than I've ever had convincing them to farm. Farming is easy, safe, and comforting, so newbies love farming. Ganking is difficult, dangerous, and scary, so most newbies are perfectly willing to go back to farming if you tell them to.
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cloth5 is a crutch now? :|
It's still super good if you're counter-jungling since you'll never get low and can take a few skirmishes with the enemy jungler while still completing your route.
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On May 04 2012 03:55 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:47 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 03:43 Juicyfruit wrote:On May 04 2012 03:39 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 04 2012 03:28 Juicyfruit wrote:
The thing though is that there are tons of opportunities that ARE 100% guaranteed to turn into an advantage to your team that wouldn't occur to you if you aren't very proactive in looking for them, or ganks that you think will work but are too afraid to try because you are worried about losing valuable farming time to try them.
I'd say your method is far more akin to 6-pooling because you're just training to look for the easy and obvious ganks. WTF? How is taking the low risk high reward path like 6-pooling? It's not about the risk to reward, it's about following a pattern and not being creative. But I'd say afk-farming is more like low-risk low-reward. ... This is a guide to teach people HOW to do something when they dont know how. It isnt about getting "creative." Its about the basics. And you SERIOUSLY have problems if you think that farming the jungle is low-reward. Suddenly all the shit you take from TL B about your jungling makes more sense You're making it sound like it's hard to kill jungle camps. I agree that you should be getting control of the important objectives, but aside from that it doesn't take hours of practice to kill wolves/wraiths/double golems. Farming the jungle is low-reward. How could you possibly define it as high-reward when it's the baseline.
Because T_D plays an extremely selfish "SV" style jungle. The emphasis in this style is heavy farming and "fuck the lanes" mentality. There's a reason I start bitching at him for ganks - because he does not gank otherwise. In reality, the other jungler will be getting ganks off and applying a lot of pressure on the map, all while the farming jungler's team falls behind because of lack of map presence.
Enemy jungler doesn't need creep farm if he's farming champions. The only time I see staying in the jungle to farm as a good idea is if every single lane is absolutely dominating just based on sheer play and they are resistant to enemy ganks. Yes, counter jungling while the enemy jungler is ganking on the other side of the map is effective for yourself. However, if the enemy jungler gets a kill (which, let's be serious, the vast majority of players die to a lot of ganks), it completely offsets any minimal advantage you may have gotten from a creep camp or two.
That said - yes, learning timings and opportunities is extremely important, and the only way to learn invasion opportunities is to play games out and see. However, emphasis on farming heavily is not always the best because for a lot of junglers, they must gank to keep lanes from failing - not to get lanes ahead.
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On May 04 2012 04:02 seRapH wrote:
cloth5 is a crutch now? :|
It's still super good if you're counter-jungling since you'll never get low and can take a few skirmishes with the enemy jungler while still completing your route.
It's a crutch if you're using it to just farm your own jungle. If you're using it as a defense against being attacked in your jungle, or as a way to be aggressive yourself, it's not a terrible idea (although usually if you're being aggressive you're going to be playing a jungler who can get away with an aggressive item).
On May 04 2012 04:04 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Enemy jungler doesn't need creep farm if he's farming champions. The only time I see staying in the jungle to farm as a good idea is if every single lane is absolutely dominating just based on sheer play and they are resistant to enemy ganks. Yes, counter jungling while the enemy jungler is ganking on the other side of the map is effective for yourself. However, if the enemy jungler gets a kill (which, let's be serious, the vast majority of players die to a lot of ganks), it completely offsets any minimal advantage you may have gotten from a creep camp or two.
To be fair, if the enemy appears on the other side of the map for a gank and there's no ganking opportunity on your side of the map, counter-jungling is pretty much all you can do. It's that, farm your own jungle, or run all the way across the map to arrive way to late to accomplish anything other than waste time.
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EPT
