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On June 28 2012 19:16 Gaslo wrote:
How do you decide on whom to focus when ganking bottom lane? Like lets have an example:
You are nocturne, coming to lane gank bottom lane. Your team is Graves + lulu, they have trist + soraka. You know that Soraka has his flash down, while Trist has both flash + jump on. Both have 70-80% hp. To whom do i jump? I thought the logical choice is Soraka, because he dies so quickly without escapes, and we can then take out trist/force her to use summoners. Where as if i jump Tristana , he just jumps away. Was my thinking right, or is it always "always go for the AD?"
Got yelled for that by the entire team, so i am a bit puzzled now. Maybe i could jump on trist, and trust that i can get to Soraka even though trist uses w?
You kill whoever you're most likely to kill without them getting away and losing someone on your team in the process. Ideally you want the AD, but I'm not about to waste my time on a Trist with W and flash up when I could just kill Soraka. Alternatively you can jump to trist, force the armor buff, then switch to Soraka. It's hard to coordinate that type of target switching in solo queue.
Basically, go for whatever nets the better likelihood of success.
On July 18 2012 11:53 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 11:35 D u o wrote:
They should just scale back the jungle based off of what summoner level you're playing at so that you can do it without needing @__@ Even on my 30 only 50% of the games have a jungle. i dont think scaling the jungle is the right thing to do tho, cause it'll mess up the jungle balance and can potentially disproportionately favor certain junglers. And some low-level players do have runes. That said, I do think that it's very hard to pick up jungling. It's also, imo, the hardest role to play by far.
Jungling is probably the easiest of all the roles since in 95% of cases you have all the time in the world to make decisions and you aren't directly against an intelligent person. Yes, there is a lot that goes it to accurately reading lanes to make the best determination on what path to take to both farm and arrive in a place you can gank/counter gank, but that's nuancy shit that you can get around vs low level/caliber players.
It's sort of like the co-op vs AI in that really new players will struggle greatly and even lose to intermediate bots, but even mediocre players will stomp them without effort. When you're a low level laner you're usually going against someone equally inept. When you're a low level jungler, you're going against something fairly static. You just have to get to the point where you have enough game sense that you can actually overcome that point (which frankly isn't that hard). Runes are kind of an issue, but it's not a big deal overall.
I don't find it problematic that really low level games don't have junglers because there's still so many other factors they need to learn. You can jump into jungling at level 30 and have the basics down in a handful of attempts.
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On July 18 2012 11:54 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 11:53 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 18 2012 11:35 D u o wrote:
They should just scale back the jungle based off of what summoner level you're playing at so that you can do it without needing @__@ Even on my 30 only 50% of the games have a jungle. i dont think scaling the jungle is the right thing to do tho, cause it'll mess up the jungle balance and can potentially disproportionately favor certain junglers. And some low-level players do have runes. That said, I do think that it's very hard to pick up jungling. It's also, imo, the hardest role to play by far. Jungling is probably the easiest of all the roles since in 95% of cases you have all the time in the world to make decisions and you aren't directly against an intelligent person. Yes, there is a lot that goes it to accurately reading lanes to make the best determination on what path to take to both farm and arrive in a place you can gank/counter gank, but that's nuancy shit that you can get around vs low level/caliber players. It's sort of like the co-op vs AI in that really new players will struggle greatly and even lose to intermediate bots, but even mediocre players will stomp them without effort. When you're a low level laner you're usually going against someone equally inept. When you're a low level jungler, you're going against something fairly static. You just have to get to the point where you have enough game sense that you can actually overcome that point (which frankly isn't that hard). Runes are kind of an issue, but it's not a big deal overall. I don't find it problematic that really low level games don't have junglers because there's still so many other factors they need to learn. You can jump into jungling at level 30 and have the basics down in a handful of attempts.
I don't agree at all. Being a good jungler is hardly about afk farming against camps. You have to not only take your own camps, but watch for potential invades into your and the opponent's jungle, keep an eye on every single lane, and keep track of objectives. Jungling is probably less mechanically demanding that the other 4 positions, but the amount of experience and knowledge you need to jungle effectively is huge.
I get that you're kinda talking about low-level jungling. It's, in a sense, very easy to jungle in that all you have to do at low levels is to kill jungle mobs and occasionally gank un-warded lanes. But for low level games, laning is just as easy since no one knows how to last hit or be aggressive properly.
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Edit: Whoa holy cow this is not a new thread. This is an OLD thread.
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On July 18 2012 12:14 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 11:54 Craton wrote:On July 18 2012 11:53 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 18 2012 11:35 D u o wrote:
They should just scale back the jungle based off of what summoner level you're playing at so that you can do it without needing @__@ Even on my 30 only 50% of the games have a jungle. i dont think scaling the jungle is the right thing to do tho, cause it'll mess up the jungle balance and can potentially disproportionately favor certain junglers. And some low-level players do have runes. That said, I do think that it's very hard to pick up jungling. It's also, imo, the hardest role to play by far. Jungling is probably the easiest of all the roles since in 95% of cases you have all the time in the world to make decisions and you aren't directly against an intelligent person. Yes, there is a lot that goes it to accurately reading lanes to make the best determination on what path to take to both farm and arrive in a place you can gank/counter gank, but that's nuancy shit that you can get around vs low level/caliber players. It's sort of like the co-op vs AI in that really new players will struggle greatly and even lose to intermediate bots, but even mediocre players will stomp them without effort. When you're a low level laner you're usually going against someone equally inept. When you're a low level jungler, you're going against something fairly static. You just have to get to the point where you have enough game sense that you can actually overcome that point (which frankly isn't that hard). Runes are kind of an issue, but it's not a big deal overall. I don't find it problematic that really low level games don't have junglers because there's still so many other factors they need to learn. You can jump into jungling at level 30 and have the basics down in a handful of attempts. I don't agree at all. Being a good jungler is hardly about afk farming against camps. You have to not only take your own camps, but watch for potential invades into your and the opponent's jungle, keep an eye on every single lane, and keep track of objectives. Jungling is probably less mechanically demanding that the other 4 positions, but the amount of experience and knowledge you need to jungle effectively is huge. I get that you're kinda talking about low-level jungling. It's, in a sense, very easy to jungle in that all you have to do at low levels is to kill jungle mobs and occasionally gank un-warded lanes. But for low level games, laning is just as easy since no one knows how to last hit or be aggressive properly.
But as a jungler, you can sit there and stare at the minimap while killing your camps. It's easier to train yourself to have map awareness if you do this.
I agree though - jungling is the role that requires relatively few strong mechanics (though paying attention to monster health and timing your smite is a big one!) but requires more strategy and good decision making. A good jungler has the opportunity to make decisions about all the following things:
~ whether a lane will [still be/become] gankable by the time he finishes walking to it
~pays attention to where wards are on the map,
~needs to teamfight effectively on less gold than the 3 lane-farmers,
~plans his route so that he is at buff camps on time,
~realizes when the enemy jungler's route or gank target means he is leaving camps or buffs up, or that he can be there in time to counter-gank.
Oops, that wasn't the edit button. I'm bad at this game.
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On July 18 2012 10:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
The pressure to not fail lies more heavily on your friend than it does you. In a 1v2 lane, the #1 priority is to not die and not feed. Staying alive comes before anything else. He needs to leech w/e exp and gold he can get, which won't be much. But he absolutely must not die. In a 1v2 lane, you just play passive and wait for the lane to reach your tower, which is will. Then farm what you can under tower. By doing so, he solo lane will be able to at least keep up in levels or be no more than ~1 level behind. At which point, the jungler can easily out-level the solo lanes and come in for an easy double buff gank.
From what you said, it sounds like your friend didn't know how to play a 1v2 lane properly and thus snowballed the lane in the other team's favor too hard. And yes, jungling is somewhat hard w/out runes.
Also, don't be afraid to camp the SHIT out of the 1v2 lane when enemy team has no jungler. Even if it means your jungle path ends up being like Wolves -> blue -> camp top -> B -> wraiths wolves -> camp top -> their red -> camp top
and so on.
You will be ahead of them because jungle exp + solo lane exp >>>>> duo lane exp. Might be barely even in gold, but when you and your lanemate are level 6 vs 2 level 4s (since neither of you have died this early, RIGHT??) you should just be able to trash them.
Also, get good at smite timing and you will never lose baron/dragons because enemy team has no smite.
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On July 18 2012 11:53 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 11:35 D u o wrote:
They should just scale back the jungle based off of what summoner level you're playing at so that you can do it without needing @__@ Even on my 30 only 50% of the games have a jungle. i dont think scaling the jungle is the right thing to do tho, cause it'll mess up the jungle balance and can potentially disproportionately favor certain junglers. And some low-level players do have runes. That said, I do think that it's very hard to pick up jungling. It's also, imo, the hardest role to play by far.
Well just allowing players to play as competent as a player with full runes. I'm talking as you're levelling your summoner up from 1-15 so that the jungle is scaled back so it doesn't seem like you're hindered. Then again I see this backfiring cause if there is a level 30 summoner in a level 15 game you're just going to dominate both jungles so~ nvm. LOL. Just feel like its the hardest to learn cause you're pretty dependant on runes and its a new environment where as lanes you'll already be comfortable.
On July 18 2012 12:29 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 10:49 Ryuu314 wrote:
The pressure to not fail lies more heavily on your friend than it does you. In a 1v2 lane, the #1 priority is to not die and not feed. Staying alive comes before anything else. He needs to leech w/e exp and gold he can get, which won't be much. But he absolutely must not die. In a 1v2 lane, you just play passive and wait for the lane to reach your tower, which is will. Then farm what you can under tower. By doing so, he solo lane will be able to at least keep up in levels or be no more than ~1 level behind. At which point, the jungler can easily out-level the solo lanes and come in for an easy double buff gank.
From what you said, it sounds like your friend didn't know how to play a 1v2 lane properly and thus snowballed the lane in the other team's favor too hard. And yes, jungling is somewhat hard w/out runes. Also, don't be afraid to camp the SHIT out of the 1v2 lane when enemy team has no jungler. Even if it means your jungle path ends up being like Wolves -> blue -> camp top -> B -> wraiths wolves -> camp top -> their red -> camp top and so on. You will be ahead of them because jungle exp + solo lane exp >>>>> duo lane exp. Might be barely even in gold, but when you and your lanemate are level 6 vs 2 level 4s (since neither of you have died this early, RIGHT??) you should just be able to trash them. Also, get good at smite timing and you will never lose baron/dragons because enemy team has no smite.
Well my team wasn't coordinated enough to actually go for any of these things. I ganked bot several times because my top lane did die and feed quite a bit, and our mid was winning but the jayce got really fed and they killed the turret and basically stopped the laning phase, wukong went into the jungle and I buff sniped with smite a few times but it wasn't enough. We also didn't have the greatest team composition so we basically lost at the picks but regardless I usually lane top and just farm til 20 min and win from there.
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I'm so sick of jungling. I'm sure it's my ELO, but I just can't do it anymore. If your team lets you get counter jungled, and you're behind, its your fault, you're a newb.
If a champ escapes a gank with a flash, you're a newb, should've done it differently.
Bot has their lane pushed all the way the entire game, then gets pushed back, probably killed, then immediately complains that you haven't been ganking their lane.
Lose a 1v1 versus the enemy jungler? Forget about it, they are going to literally shit on you.
Place wards, when they expire, lane will complain about it not being warded while placing no wards of their own, or get mercilessly, constantly, ganked by enemy jungle.
Literally no one will assist warding late game, complain about lack of wards.
All lanes get pushed, you hold lanes so they can back, complaints about how you are underleveled and undergeared.
Teammate dies at level 3? Complains you should've ganked at level 2.
The lane gets "kill" credit for all your ganks, but you have 8 assists and 2 deaths? You're the worst jungle. "This Skarner" comments.
Maybe support is the most thankless role, in that no one sees what they do...But Jungle has to be the most blamed role. Feels like nothing I do is ever right.
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On July 19 2012 22:13 Felnarion wrote:
I'm so sick of jungling. I'm sure it's my ELO, but I just can't do it anymore. If your team lets you get counter jungled, and you're behind, its your fault, you're a newb.
If a champ escapes a gank with a flash, you're a newb, should've done it differently.
Bot has their lane pushed all the way the entire game, then gets pushed back, probably killed, then immediately complains that you haven't been ganking their lane.
Lose a 1v1 versus the enemy jungler? Forget about it, they are going to literally shit on you.
Place wards, when they expire, lane will complain about it not being warded while placing no wards of their own, or get mercilessly, constantly, ganked by enemy jungle.
Literally no one will assist warding late game, complain about lack of wards.
All lanes get pushed, you hold lanes so they can back, complaints about how you are underleveled and undergeared.
Teammate dies at level 3? Complains you should've ganked at level 2.
The lane gets "kill" credit for all your ganks, but you have 8 assists and 2 deaths? You're the worst jungle. "This Skarner" comments.
Maybe support is the most thankless role, in that no one sees what they do...But Jungle has to be the most blamed role. Feels like nothing I do is ever right.
Part of being a good jungler in solo q is ignoring your team's negative comments. Make your own decisions. If you end up getting crushed, evaluate for yourself why you failed. Don't listen to dumb kids who tell you to cover top lane, then immediately gank bot, only to gank top again, as if you have some infinite number of instant teleportation abilities.
From your post, you don't seem to have a good understanding of many aspects of jungling. How are you losing 1v1s to other jungles? You might need to learn about who's strong/weak during what phase. i.e.
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at lower ELOs dont play weak 1v1 junglers
at lower elo you should gank/camp more, at higher elo you should farm
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On July 19 2012 22:24 jacosajh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 22:13 Felnarion wrote:
I'm so sick of jungling. I'm sure it's my ELO, but I just can't do it anymore. If your team lets you get counter jungled, and you're behind, its your fault, you're a newb.
If a champ escapes a gank with a flash, you're a newb, should've done it differently.
Bot has their lane pushed all the way the entire game, then gets pushed back, probably killed, then immediately complains that you haven't been ganking their lane.
Lose a 1v1 versus the enemy jungler? Forget about it, they are going to literally shit on you.
Place wards, when they expire, lane will complain about it not being warded while placing no wards of their own, or get mercilessly, constantly, ganked by enemy jungle.
Literally no one will assist warding late game, complain about lack of wards.
All lanes get pushed, you hold lanes so they can back, complaints about how you are underleveled and undergeared.
Teammate dies at level 3? Complains you should've ganked at level 2.
The lane gets "kill" credit for all your ganks, but you have 8 assists and 2 deaths? You're the worst jungle. "This Skarner" comments.
Maybe support is the most thankless role, in that no one sees what they do...But Jungle has to be the most blamed role. Feels like nothing I do is ever right. Part of being a good jungler in solo q is ignoring your team's negative comments. Make your own decisions. If you end up getting crushed, evaluate for yourself why you failed. Don't listen to dumb kids who tell you to cover top lane, then immediately gank bot, only to gank top again, as if you have some infinite number of instant teleportation abilities. From your post, you don't seem to have a good understanding of many aspects of jungling. How are you losing 1v1s to other jungles? You might need to learn about who's strong/weak during what phase. i.e.
I have a reasonable understanding, I'm no God by any means, but my outcomes are decent, especially with Yi, less so with Skarner, but I never end negative, and usually build tanky. Honestly? Maybe 75% of my problems, you're right, is trying to please the rest of the team and be everywhere at once, which honestly just gives me LESS of a presence throughout the entire game. It's just when you're in there and doing it, you feel a lot of pressure to be everywhere.
As to the 1v1 comment, sometimes you just get in a situation, especially around level 6, where you just get caught in a situation where you're low, or can't get away (maybe they have red or something). I wasn't speaking to a specific instance in my mind, just kind of making generalizations.
The only time I can definitively say I've been crushed is when my jungle was invaded early by enemy jungle, top lane, and mid, and my top and mid just stood at their turrets. My blue was stolen (Skarner) and it just put me so so so far behind that I really couldn't recover, but aside from that, maybe I have an "okay" game, but never "bad" in my eyes. I get kills, I have more assists than most, and I die less than 5 times in a full game. Seems decent to me. Wards go up as I can afford to protect lanes and my jungle, I don't feed deaths nor lose my buffs, I pass off blue and red when I don't need them, I communicate with team, call mias I see, so forth.
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Jungling in low elo means you have to understand your teammates will probably not help you. They probably don't even know how to help you even if they knew they need too.
I've jumped down 200-300 ELO from inactivity/not taking the game so seriously in the last few weeks and I can feel a massive difference in the jungle. Even with worse teammates at lower ELO, I feel untouchable at jungle. Whereas at the higher ELO I feel even with better teammates and having them help me, I fail more times than they fail. I think this means you can definitely learn how to jungle better with/without your teammates help.
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Don't misunderstand, there are games where, with Yi, I can end 20+/3. It happens frequently, in fact, I very rarely lose if I jungle Yi. But it doesn't stop the team from trash talking me until I begin to snowball. More often than not, if I jungle, we win. I'm decent at it, my outcomes are good, that's not the problem.
The problem is having to take the blame for the poor decisions and playstyles of those around me until they see that I am carrying them too victory.
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Your story kinda hearkens back to many LoL players being rather unreceptive of anything nonstandard / up to their ridiculous expectations. You're not a tanky jungler who can face-first the enemy team while also counterjungling and ganking all the lanes? You're obviously picking a terrible champ, feeding, being unhelpful, and should get reported, banned, go uninstall immediately before throwing your computer out the window.
Remember, nearly every player believes that they are by far the best player on their team and must carry 4 bads to victory. Especially at lower Elo.
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On July 20 2012 03:37 Felnarion wrote:
The problem is having to take the blame for the poor decisions and playstyles of those around me until they see that I am carrying them too victory.
You can probably make this statement in any role in solo q 
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On July 20 2012 03:57 sylverfyre wrote:
Your story kinda hearkens back to many LoL players being rather unreceptive of anything nonstandard / up to their ridiculous expectations. You're not a tanky jungler who can face-first the enemy team while also counterjungling and ganking all the lanes? You're obviously picking a terrible champ, feeding, being unhelpful, and should get reported, banned, go uninstall immediately before throwing your computer out the window.
Remember, nearly every player believes that they are by far the best player on their team and must carry 4 bads to victory. Especially at lower Elo.
Lol, indeed, indeed. I think, from now on, my primary jungle strategy will be to just not say anything (Aside from ask for a leash if I need it) and do my best under the circumstances.
If someone starts to get too annoying, I'll simply mute, and do what I can. The cool thing is, at least, even if you're making fun of me constantly, I'll still help you.
Wish I were better. I'm at a level where I have knowledge from those above me, but something is missing (build choice? Probably switching champs up too much) and I'm just lower than where my game knowledge is. It's kind of ruining the game for me.
On July 20 2012 04:03 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 03:37 Felnarion wrote:
The problem is having to take the blame for the poor decisions and playstyles of those around me until they see that I am carrying them too victory. You can probably make this statement in any role in solo q
Definitely, but I've played them all, and I haven't felt the same pressure I feel jungling.
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Yeah just ask for leash then /ignore all if it's just the comments that are bothering you
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Unfortunately the league subforum only shows 3 pages. I don't know if this has been talked about, but there is a finesse to ganking.
We all know how mundo is a subpar ganker. But I was playing kayle a few days ago against shyvana top. Mundo came in at level 2 and pinged for me. I thought to myself "what does he want" and then I realized "oh he wants me to go in the brush and bait shyvana". So I did just that, I did some damage, then shyvana used exhaust and ignite on me, and I backed out. Then mundo finally came in, shyvana realized, tried to escape but she'd burnt her W and exhaust already, mundo got first blood and I asked him to help me push the lane to which he happily obliged.
Then later I put a pink ward in top lane's river brush. I spotted one of shyvana's wards. I go to the tri a bit later than mundo and he pings shyvana's ward. I understand he wants me to bait again. I kill the ward and act oblivious to shyvana coming to kill me. Then shyvana gets baited into leaving her tower again and my Q and mundo's Q and phage are enough to ensure shyvana can't outrun us even with her ult, and my ult and mundo's means we can dive her easily to pick up the kill.
There's a finesses to ganking that doesn't just involve running into unwarded lanes, pinging, and being spotted right away. Often you want your team to bait a fight, to blow the enemy's escapes, to move them away from their towers, and to get their eyes off the minimap.
I know that this is common in high level ganks but it's just something small that can win games in low elo.
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On July 19 2012 22:13 Felnarion wrote:
I'm so sick of jungling. I'm sure it's my ELO, but I just can't do it anymore. If your team lets you get counter jungled, and you're behind, its your fault, you're a newb.
If a champ escapes a gank with a flash, you're a newb, should've done it differently.
Bot has their lane pushed all the way the entire game, then gets pushed back, probably killed, then immediately complains that you haven't been ganking their lane.
Lose a 1v1 versus the enemy jungler? Forget about it, they are going to literally shit on you.
Place wards, when they expire, lane will complain about it not being warded while placing no wards of their own, or get mercilessly, constantly, ganked by enemy jungle.
Literally no one will assist warding late game, complain about lack of wards.
All lanes get pushed, you hold lanes so they can back, complaints about how you are underleveled and undergeared.
Teammate dies at level 3? Complains you should've ganked at level 2.
The lane gets "kill" credit for all your ganks, but you have 8 assists and 2 deaths? You're the worst jungle. "This Skarner" comments.
Maybe support is the most thankless role, in that no one sees what they do...But Jungle has to be the most blamed role. Feels like nothing I do is ever right.
Sounds like your skin isn't thick enough to be a jungler. Slaves/laners always gonna bitch about something, just man up and ignore it.
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I've been seeing a lot more people going boots of mobility. I'm just curious as to people's thoughts about it.
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Seems really nice on any of the many CC/initiating junglers. Gives you good positioning power before a fight breaks out, makes it just a little bit easier to be everywhere at once, and lets you force a gank and run right by a ward more effectively. It is a gambit to lose the cheap tanky stats of tabi / tenacity of treads, though.
Edit: Also, can we keep this thread to be the jungle role discussion thread and keep the QQ to the QQ thread D: Seems like all of the last page is QQ about how people treat junglers.
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EPT
