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On May 11 2012 06:38 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 06:15 Ryuu314 wrote:poppy can't beat GP if GP just goes oranges. If GP goes oranges it's just a farmfest. On May 11 2012 06:10 Alaric wrote:
Why wouldn't Irelia win in trades with Hiten style? Spec defensively against her to pass the first few levels, then trade anytime W is up. I'm assuming you're talking about Poppy v. Irelia. By the time Irelia's W is significantly high level, Poppy should be far ahead. The problem with speccing defensively against Poppy is that her harass is mixed damage, which is hard to spec against. Even then, it's not hard to just kite Irelia when her W is up and trade when it's down. Poppy gets a free ghost with her W. if they farm poppy wins Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 06:10 obesechicken13 wrote:
Has anyone watched games and tried to figure out which champions do the most damage during fights? I think AD carries start dealing too much once they get a PD and IE regardless of what they build after that. i disagree, i think until they have about 4 completed items they are still outshined by APs. and even then thats not a problem. its perfectly ok for heroes to scale differently. this is also a shitstorm waiting to happen if you want to talk about ADs being too good late game ;D
I just remember Chumpesque once saying that someone analyzed replays for the orc army and found the blademaster did 50% of the damage of the army. I was wondering if anyone similarly analyzed replays in LoL especially now that damage numbers display so cleanly.
Before hearing that I always thought it was stupid when some pro did something drastic to counter the blademaster like max banish on the human bloodmage. Or like mass DotT
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I think it largely depends on the AP too. During a teamfight where Orianna has perfect initiation she's probably gonna do just as much, maybe more, damage as an AD carry. Karthus and Rumble will do more damage to an enemy team than an AD carry too late game.
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On May 11 2012 06:55 overt wrote:
I think it largely depends on the AP too. During a teamfight where Orianna has perfect initiation she's probably gonna do just as much, maybe more, damage as an AD carry. Karthus and Rumble will do more damage to an enemy team than an AD carry too late game.
Obviously. I mean over the sample of many many fights and replays.
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AD carries dont do all that much damage for a lot of the game they are mostly hitting tanks and don't have much burst and easily get zoned out. I'd say top laners and APs dominate most of the game and ads really shine lategame or in cleaning up.
I wish they had a stat for damage done during segments of time so we could analyse this shit.
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On May 11 2012 07:00 Slayer91 wrote:
AD carries dont do all that much damage for a lot of the game they are mostly hitting tanks and don't have much burst and easily get zoned out. I'd say top laners and APs dominate most of the game and ads really shine lategame or in cleaning up.
I wish they had a stat for damage done during segments of time so we could analyse this shit.
It really wouldn't be that difficult to implement an add-on that did that. It would probably work best for someone spectating the game to run it (while recording the game somehow).
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On May 11 2012 07:00 Slayer91 wrote:
AD carries dont do all that much damage for a lot of the game they are mostly hitting tanks and don't have much burst and easily get zoned out. I'd say top laners and APs dominate most of the game and ads really shine lategame or in cleaning up.
I wish they had a stat for damage done during segments of time so we could analyse this shit.
Yes, damage is not everything.
It's also dependent on the AD. ADs with long range or/and with an escape can hit priority targets more easily, making them much, much stronger than ADs who can only hit tanks. You can solve this with very good positioning, but that is not always possible.
Usually, as Teut said, it's about fed bruisers who jump on these priority targets and prevent them from doing damage. If your Damage dealers (DD) are doing damage and theirs aren't, the fight is over.
There are important things to consider, for example someone getting caught (and abilities that enable this, ie. Blitz or Ashe), a team getting 2 free seconds of damage dealing, etc., so we cannot really compare things perfectly. If we wanted a perfect example of 2 teams on even positioning, that wouldn't be fair for assassins or people who catch people, so IMO, there are simply too many variables to create a perfect situation that we can research.
That's also another strength of APs, they can burst their shit and get out. An AD has to constantly attack, so while on paper an AD might deal more damage than the AP, if the AP kills the AD in 2 seconds and survives, he is much, much more relevant in the team fight and contributes more. That is why things like positioning and CC are so important, and why we really shouldn't just look at damage on paper.
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On May 11 2012 07:29 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 07:00 Slayer91 wrote:
AD carries dont do all that much damage for a lot of the game they are mostly hitting tanks and don't have much burst and easily get zoned out. I'd say top laners and APs dominate most of the game and ads really shine lategame or in cleaning up.
I wish they had a stat for damage done during segments of time so we could analyse this shit. Yes, damage is not everything. It's also dependent on the AD. ADs with long range or/and with an escape can hit priority targets more easily, making them much, much stronger than ADs who can only hit tanks. You can solve this with very good positioning, but that is not always possible. Usually, as Teut said, it's about fed bruisers who jump on these priority targets and prevent them from doing damage. If your Damage dealers (DD) are doing damage and theirs aren't, the fight is over. There are important things to consider, for example someone getting caught (and abilities that enable this, ie. Blitz or Ashe), a team getting 2 free seconds of damage dealing, etc., so we cannot really compare things perfectly. If we wanted a perfect example of 2 teams on even positioning, that wouldn't be fair for assassins or people who catch people, so IMO, there are simply too many variables to create a perfect situation that we can research. That's also another strength of APs, they can burst their shit and get out. An AD has to constantly attack, so while on paper an AD might deal more damage than the AP, if the AP kills the AD in 2 seconds and survives, he is much, much more relevant in the team fight and contributes more. That is why things like positioning and CC are so important, we really shouldn't just look at damage on paper.
Not quite bro.. If it were, everyone would be playing Cait, yet she is one of the weakest carries, if you can even call her that. more of an AD caster.
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On May 11 2012 07:43 storkfan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 07:29 OutlaW- wrote:On May 11 2012 07:00 Slayer91 wrote:
AD carries dont do all that much damage for a lot of the game they are mostly hitting tanks and don't have much burst and easily get zoned out. I'd say top laners and APs dominate most of the game and ads really shine lategame or in cleaning up.
I wish they had a stat for damage done during segments of time so we could analyse this shit. Yes, damage is not everything. It's also dependent on the AD. ADs with long range or/and with an escape can hit priority targets more easily, making them much, much stronger than ADs who can only hit tanks. You can solve this with very good positioning, but that is not always possible. Usually, as Teut said, it's about fed bruisers who jump on these priority targets and prevent them from doing damage. If your Damage dealers (DD) are doing damage and theirs aren't, the fight is over. There are important things to consider, for example someone getting caught (and abilities that enable this, ie. Blitz or Ashe), a team getting 2 free seconds of damage dealing, etc., so we cannot really compare things perfectly. If we wanted a perfect example of 2 teams on even positioning, that wouldn't be fair for assassins or people who catch people, so IMO, there are simply too many variables to create a perfect situation that we can research. That's also another strength of APs, they can burst their shit and get out. An AD has to constantly attack, so while on paper an AD might deal more damage than the AP, if the AP kills the AD in 2 seconds and survives, he is much, much more relevant in the team fight and contributes more. That is why things like positioning and CC are so important, we really shouldn't just look at damage on paper. Not quite bro.. If it were, everyone would be playing Cait, yet she is one of the weakest carries, if you can even call her that. more of an AD caster.
mmm she's definitely not an AD caster...
its just other peeps wind up doing more damage late game, and champions like tristana and kog maw have better scaling while getting up to her range, and other champions have steroids
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She is not. Just because people say she's bad late game doesn't mean it's true. They look at her kit and say that she's bad, from my personal experience she's not bad. Still tier 2, because people like tristana (best steroid, best jump, 2nd best range) and kog (best range, very good poke) exist. She doesn't have the burst of Graves nor the utility of Ashe, but she still deals good damage, in sustained fights definitely more than those 2.
Her lack of CC and utility coupled with no steroids (I don't really count her passive) is what makes her weak. You look at that and you think she's very weak late game, but she's actually not bad.
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cait isn't really that good unless your name is doublelift
but if you're bad then w/e she destroys baddies in laning
hth
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On May 11 2012 07:46 OutlaW- wrote:
She is not. Just because people say she's bad late game doesn't mean it's true. They look at her kit and say that she's bad, from my personal experience she's not bad. Still tier 2, because people like tristana (best steroid, best jump, 2nd best range) and kog (best range, very good poke) exist. She doesn't have the burst of Graves nor the utility of Ashe, but she still deals good damage, in sustained fights definitely more than those 2.
Her lack of CC and utility coupled with no steroids (I don't really count her passive) is what makes her weak. You look at that and you think she's very weak late game, but she's actually not bad.
Nah she is pretty bad. No way does Caitlyn deal more sustained damage than Graves and even Ashe will give her a run for her money between volley and being able to shoot more if having to kite thanks to frost arrows. Caitlyn basically can't use any ability except her escape without losing a ton of damage. If she gets farmed shes still an AD carry, but easily the worst one there is unless you specifically need her poking (and you cant get Kog'Maw or Ashe or Urgot). I'd place her just a tad over AD Annie and would hand her second place for the worst champion when using proper builds (losing to Xin Zhao).
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On May 11 2012 07:46 OutlaW- wrote:
She is not. Just because people say she's bad late game doesn't mean it's true. They look at her kit and say that she's bad, from my personal experience she's not bad. Still tier 2, because people like tristana (best steroid, best jump, 2nd best range) and kog (best range, very good poke) exist. She doesn't have the burst of Graves nor the utility of Ashe, but she still deals good damage, in sustained fights definitely more than those 2.
Her lack of CC and utility coupled with no steroids (I don't really count her passive) is what makes her weak. You look at that and you think she's very weak late game, but she's actually not bad.
Honestly, I think pretty much ALL of the ranged ADs outshine Cait late. Offsets the fact that she destroys everyone in lane usually.
Vayne, Kog, and Tristana all become arguably the 3 best ADs in the game come late game, with Twitch hovering around their somewhere. Graves and Ashe are definitely below them, MF is kinda bleh honestly, and Corki reminds me of a fairly consistent carry with his passive dealing true damage all game.
So I mean, she might be better than MF, but even MF has an AS steroid. Ezreal gains AS by hitting his skills, and Sivir will even beat her out. Cait honestly just doesn't have anything that will give her a buff, and the only thing that keeps her from being played 0 times is her range.
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ashe vayne kog and trist all bring something unique to the table, i think you are underrating her.
99% of games never get to 6 items where cait is weakest. people saying cait is weak is more to do with people who fail to play her correctly. the hugest thing about low elo play is that people dont know how to poke/trade without losing massive amounts of cs, so cait players dont maximise their advantage. they then come out of lane with the same items as the other carrry and claim cait sucks.
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Caitlyn has best lane phase of all the AD carries. She has less dps late game and a pretty trash midgame but while she deals less dps than like corki/vayne/graves she does her damage much more safely due to her long range. I don't think there's a single AD carry that is 'bad' lategame.
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Dyrus fans are the best. As soon as he gets outplayed/smashed in lane they blame voy for ghosting l0l.
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Been playing varus ALOT since he came out, all i pretty much play is ad carries these days. So far i have to say he seems imbalanced. First off he has a q ability which is pretty good for poking, and is one of these abilities with insane range, allowing for kills on running enemies, over terrain and into bushes, also scales with ad so its a nasty hit late game. Then he has his auto attack, does some magic dmg on top, meh, but also more importantly the modred's bloodrazer effect thats unleashed with the stacks is pretty decent, not sure how this actually compares to other ad carries's passives but someone will surely do the math. Tbh coupled with his given passive of attack speed on kill, i think auto attack wise he has the biggest buff to to damage, already at this point he's sounding pretty dam strong and I haven't even mentioned his two most powerful abilities. His ultimate, pretty nice amount of dmg mid game, obviously nice to have a stun, pretty short cool-down, like all his abilities, can easily win a team fight, ridiculously strong for any non 1v1 fight, yes it not the best initiate (icearrow im looking at you) but its got to be the best ulti of any ad carry for team fights, has the potential to dmg and stun all 5, and is even pretty good at enemies 2v2 bot lane when they both try and run. And then lastly his e. Now this ability is just ridiculously insane, its a aoe, ranged, slow, ignite(yes AOE IGNITE) which also scales with ad so it does some pretty nasty damage, oh and because of its cd its pretty much near-spammable. The hero overall is just too strong, i haven't even been playing well and getting scores of 17/2/18 in every game, its just ludicrous. The issue with him is that every single one of his abilities are what i would consider god tier, while most over ad carries only have 1 or 2. He is the best AD carry in every aspect except for 2: hes not that great 1v1(not in a lane but a duel, ie a 1v1 fight), and kogmaw does scale better endgame and edges it, but hes been the best ad carry undoubtedly for a while now(well in my mind anyhows), and varus gains such a huge advantage by the time endgame starts its not that important. Ps those who are struggling to see what varus is so strong, try maxing out e first 
As for cait i think shes really overrated. Her skill shot doesn't do huge dmg and is avoidable, her traps are just a noobcheck, not that hard not to walk into, hes has an escape ability (yay...) and then an ultimate, which again is a noobcheck on your allies to get in the way of it. So really shes just a little bit shit.
And lastly as for hybrid, the issue is that as stated before it scales worse endgame than ap or ad, and also two of varus's abilities are based on ad damage, so only your auto attack, which is ad anyways, plus your ultimate is getting the use from hybrid, i have tried it a few times and it just seems flat out worse :S Personally i always thought that hybrid tf's power is still waiting to be untaped, but meh.
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Step 1: Make a full mpen runepage
Step 2: Pick Varus.
Step 3: Sorcs/malady/haunting guise
Step 4: Get 3 stacks of blight on someone, and shoot them with E
Step 5: They lose like 50% of their hp instantly
Step 6: DEATHCAP!
Step 7: AP Varus is OP
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On May 11 2012 09:39 Haemonculus wrote:
Step 1: Make a full mpen runepage
Step 2: Pick Varus.
Step 3: Sorcs/malady/haunting guise
Step 4: Get 3 stacks of blight on someone, and shoot them with E
Step 5: They lose like 50% of their hp instantly
Step 6: DEATHCAP!
Step 7: AP Varus is OP
PFFFF we only won cuz me/mugi blitzstar op
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On May 11 2012 09:43 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 09:39 Haemonculus wrote:
Step 1: Make a full mpen runepage
Step 2: Pick Varus.
Step 3: Sorcs/malady/haunting guise
Step 4: Get 3 stacks of blight on someone, and shoot them with E
Step 5: They lose like 50% of their hp instantly
Step 6: DEATHCAP!
Step 7: AP Varus is OP PFFFF we only won cuz me/mugi blitzstar op
Quoted for the truth
But her build is legit, it does terrifying damage
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Caitlyn doesn't really have a much better lane phase than other AD's. Most of her advantages shrink considerably or even disappear entirely once you factor in the supports. As she simply can't take a standing fight post lvl6 vs any other AD and many support+ad combos can already start getting aggressive on her at lvl3 themselves.
I mean being a ranged AD with high range and sitting in the bottom lane for laning phase she doesn't run into counterpicking problems like other chars, so yeah she will never be really horrible as a choice, but she will be the worst choice out of the designated AD carries most of the time. Other "bad" champions have bigger or more common niches of play where they are actually competitive choices in my opinion.
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EPT
