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On April 25 2012 11:49 Yttrasil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 11:47 nyxnyxnyx wrote:On April 25 2012 11:40 Yttrasil wrote:On April 25 2012 11:30 nyxnyxnyx wrote:On April 25 2012 11:28 Yttrasil wrote:
What annoys me as rumble is that there is no item which has ap and armor which makes sense vs bruisers in the laning phase. Absolutely nothing, now there are two vs AP with mr which makes sense. And now even better items for characters like ww top and I have no response. ninja tabi -> wota WHAT UP BRUISERS also dolan shields Yes and no, the items don't mix for later items and nothing about them is really special vs ad which also helps you get ap, cd etc. You can't stack dorans, go ninja tabi and wota vs every bruiser. Ninja tabi is good but the rest, not so much, at least not for Rumble. Still am missing an armor item with some kind of stats for ap, preferably without mana regen for kennen, vlad, rumble top. tell me a bruiser that you need armor for, but cant stack tabi/dorans against If you die once vs any of the following chars lvl 7+. Irelia, Nidalee, Olaf, Lee Sin, Wukong, Riven. You'll get zoned, cannot survive even one engage if you even run away etc.
level 7+ rumble shits on like almost all of them. tabi+dorans works against most if not all of those you listed.
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New Haunting Guise on PBE:
Amp Tome+Amp Tome 1485 (Same cost?)
45 AP
8% Movement Speed
20 Magic Pen
Not bad. Takes away the mostly extraneous health and adds some speed. Worth getting?
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On April 25 2012 12:37 ManyCookies wrote:
New Haunting Guise on PBE:
Amp Tome+Amp Tome 1485 (Same cost?)
45 AP
8% Movement Speed
20 Magic Pen
Not bad. Possibly worth getting?
Nop.
Every other caster item in the game is OP. Why get that when I can just get sorcs and move towards a dcap or wota or abyssal.
Realistically the only way to make Haunting guise not suck would be to make it a component of Abyssal. Or make it a component of a late game item that you could use with abyssal and sorcs for a shit ton of flat pen.
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still has to compete with sorcs and abyssal (or maybe BUY ALL OF THEM). the movespeed is pretty sweet though
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Could get that on some casters for sure.
Cass maybe? Extra movespeed early could really help you bully people in lane.
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On April 25 2012 12:16 nyxnyxnyx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 11:49 Yttrasil wrote:On April 25 2012 11:47 nyxnyxnyx wrote:On April 25 2012 11:40 Yttrasil wrote:On April 25 2012 11:30 nyxnyxnyx wrote:On April 25 2012 11:28 Yttrasil wrote:
What annoys me as rumble is that there is no item which has ap and armor which makes sense vs bruisers in the laning phase. Absolutely nothing, now there are two vs AP with mr which makes sense. And now even better items for characters like ww top and I have no response. ninja tabi -> wota WHAT UP BRUISERS also dolan shields Yes and no, the items don't mix for later items and nothing about them is really special vs ad which also helps you get ap, cd etc. You can't stack dorans, go ninja tabi and wota vs every bruiser. Ninja tabi is good but the rest, not so much, at least not for Rumble. Still am missing an armor item with some kind of stats for ap, preferably without mana regen for kennen, vlad, rumble top. tell me a bruiser that you need armor for, but cant stack tabi/dorans against If you die once vs any of the following chars lvl 7+. Irelia, Nidalee, Olaf, Lee Sin, Wukong, Riven. You'll get zoned, cannot survive even one engage if you even run away etc. level 7+ rumble shits on like almost all of them. tabi+dorans works against most if not all of those you listed.
Um you're wrong or play at too low a level, lvl 7 can be manageble but barely so and it goes downhill from there. What I specifically said was if they had one kill up on you, which means you want to somehow build safe and be defensive but still somehow farm. Problem is, you can't vs any of them in that situation and there is basically no way to get back in those matchups. Riven one is arguable, but rest is autoloss.
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Mobility boots + new Haunting Guise + Lich Bane + Janna + MS quints = extreme speed troll build, fun times.
Nah but seriously it's probably not worth getting unless Sorc's + HG + Abyssal is enough flat Mpen to make it worth it. And in that case, it should be worth getting right now.
Early game items need to be pretty damn good since you run out of item slots so fast in this game.
It does have two pretty rare caster stats though (flat pen and MS), so I wouldn't count it out entirely.
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So 2x Amp Tomes can build you either a revolver or a haunting guise now? Glad to see Riot mixing build paths up. I hope they start mixing middle dead end tier items into recipes for current higher tier items.
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Haunting guise changes look quite attractive, replacing the HP component for MS, which is the only other item that gives MS other than Lich bane, and more AP than before
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On April 25 2012 12:52 Yttrasil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 12:16 nyxnyxnyx wrote:On April 25 2012 11:49 Yttrasil wrote:On April 25 2012 11:47 nyxnyxnyx wrote:On April 25 2012 11:40 Yttrasil wrote:On April 25 2012 11:30 nyxnyxnyx wrote:On April 25 2012 11:28 Yttrasil wrote:
What annoys me as rumble is that there is no item which has ap and armor which makes sense vs bruisers in the laning phase. Absolutely nothing, now there are two vs AP with mr which makes sense. And now even better items for characters like ww top and I have no response. ninja tabi -> wota WHAT UP BRUISERS also dolan shields Yes and no, the items don't mix for later items and nothing about them is really special vs ad which also helps you get ap, cd etc. You can't stack dorans, go ninja tabi and wota vs every bruiser. Ninja tabi is good but the rest, not so much, at least not for Rumble. Still am missing an armor item with some kind of stats for ap, preferably without mana regen for kennen, vlad, rumble top. tell me a bruiser that you need armor for, but cant stack tabi/dorans against If you die once vs any of the following chars lvl 7+. Irelia, Nidalee, Olaf, Lee Sin, Wukong, Riven. You'll get zoned, cannot survive even one engage if you even run away etc. level 7+ rumble shits on like almost all of them. tabi+dorans works against most if not all of those you listed. Um you're wrong or play at too low a level, lvl 7 can be manageble but barely so and it goes downhill from there. What I specifically said was if they had one kill up on you, which means you want to somehow build safe and be defensive but still somehow farm. Problem is, you can't vs any of them in that situation and there is basically no way to get back in those matchups. Riven one is arguable, but rest is autoloss.
ah shit you got me. too low a level ):
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Sunfire cape buff was needed, but I'm not sure if it will be enough for it to be useful still. I really like the Chalice upgrade, I've always wondered what I should build when I want MR and CDR but don't really need Spirit Visage. Force of Nature buff seems to be a response to the other item changes as it was still a item often built.
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United States47024 Posts
Riot just needs to realize that the cost-effectiveness of midgame items needs to far exceed that of endgame items to make them worthwhile. Slot-effectiveness has value, and it's a pretty damn steep cost to spend 1 of your 6 items on a 1500 gold item. Hell, there are midgame items that DON'T have dead end build paths, and people STILL don't build them.
I have a really hard time thinking that i'd ever buy the new Guise. Just compare it to Sorcs upgrade+Blasting Wand. Almost the same cost for same penetration, 5 less AP, and a little bit less movespeed. Except the Blasting Wand builds into...anything. Realistically the difference in gold-efficiency between Guise and Sorcs+Blasting Wand is only worth maybe 200-300 gold, and that's not worth the commitment of an entire item slot.
The big danger that I think forces Riot to keep away from making these midgame items useful is how they might empower midgame power curves. Heroes like Pantheon, Garen, and Leblanc incited the absolute worst kind of bitching from the community when they were "OP". Within Riot's need to appease the general playerbase, it's just not feasible to support those kinds of power curves, so the midgame dead-end items are likely to stay where they are (or just get endgame build paths, and thus basically fall in the same boat as every other lategame item).
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New morello tombs ~ ap version of executioners, I wish riot would spend more time inventing a bit more interesting mechanic for a morello buff.
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On April 25 2012 13:17 TheYango wrote:
Riot just needs to realize that the cost-effectiveness of midgame items needs to far exceed that of endgame items to make them worthwhile. Slot-effectiveness has value, and it's a pretty damn steep cost to spend 1 of your 6 items on a 1500 gold item. Hell, there are midgame items that DON'T have dead end build paths, and people STILL don't build them.
I have a really hard time thinking that i'd ever buy the new Guise. Just compare it to Sorcs upgrade+Blasting Wand. Almost the same cost for same penetration, 5 less AP, and a little bit less movespeed. Except the Blasting Wand builds into...anything. Realistically the difference in gold-efficiency between Guise and Sorcs+Blasting Wand is only worth maybe 200-300 gold, and that's not worth the commitment of an entire item slot.
The big danger that I think forces Riot to keep away from making these midgame items useful is how they might empower midgame power curves. Heroes like Pantheon, Garen, and Leblanc incited the absolute worst kind of bitching from the community when they were "OP". Within Riot's need to appease the general playerbase, it's just not feasible to support those kinds of power curves, so the midgame dead-end items are likely to stay where they are (or just get endgame build paths, and thus basically fall in the same boat as every other lategame item).
i don't think it is very helpful to compare other items to boot upgrades. boot upgrades are all very efficient and some give you stats that are hard or impossible to get elsewhere. but more importantly you will always be getting boots 2 regardless of what else you get. a more apt comparison would be 2drings+sorcs+guise vs 2drings+sorcs+nlr. it does seem really hard to ever make guise viable being a dead end item without having 2drings+sorcs+guise lb one shotting everyone.
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Riot just needs to realize that the cost-effectiveness of midgame items needs to far exceed that of endgame items to make them worthwhile. Slot-effectiveness has value, and it's a pretty damn steep cost to spend 1 of your 6 items on a 1500 gold item. Hell, there are midgame items that DON'T have dead end build paths, and people STILL don't build them.
For real. Like, look at glacial shroud. Way above cost with really good midgame stats that work on a number of heroes, and it builds into frozen heart which is incredibly good. Even if you're not building shroud yourself so it doesn't directly compete with your items consider that this is the kind of power level people are going to have going into the midgame without even trying to go for a midgame focused build. It's not the only example, half the midgame items are mediocre and half are ridiculous. They build the good ones then you're like sitting there with a brutalizer or a haunting guise feeling like an idiot.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2012 13:38 jadoth wrote:
i don't think it is very helpful to compare other items to boot upgrades. boot upgrades are all very efficient and some give you stats that are hard or impossible to get elsewhere. but more importantly you will always be getting boots 2 regardless of what else you get. a more apt comparison would be 2drings+sorcs+guise vs 2drings+sorcs+nlr. it does seem really hard to ever make guise viable being a dead end item without having 2drings+sorcs+guise lb one shotting everyone.
Not really. Just have it add stats that are useful but don't contribute to damage. Taking away the HP component doesn't help, because it doesn't address Guise's problem. HP is a fine stat to have on a midgame item. Guise just straight up isn't cost-effective enough, and that's all. Shifting the gold value from 1 stat to another doesn't fix that in any way. In fact, the new Guise exacerbates the problem because ALL the major stats on it are damage stats. With the old Guise, you could conceivably up the HP gain to a point where the overall gold value makes up for the lack of an endgame build path, but it's not contributing such ridiculous amounts of HP/MPen that you're one-shotting people.
The other way to add value without adding too much raw power to the item is utility item actives.
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New recipes and any applicable item changes (Remember this is the PBE and many of these changes may never make it to the live servers):
DFG: Kage's Pick + Blasting Wand + Amplifying Tomb (+20 AP, mp5 removed)
Morello's: Kage's Pick + Fiendish Codex + 440g (-20g total cost, added Executioner's Calling active with 2 second shorter duration)
WOTA: Blasting Wand + Revolver + 440g (No stat changes, 400g straight up nerf)
Haunting Guise: Amplifying Tomb + Amplifying Tomb (+20 AP, +8% movespeed)
Athene's Unholy Grail: Fiendish Codex + Amplifying Tomb + Chalice of Harmony + 500g (80 AP, 40Mres, 15mp5, 15% cdr, Passive: 12% total mana gained on kill or assist, Passive: Same as CoH, doesn't stack)
Sunfire Cape: (+5 magic damage/second)
Randuins: (-1 second on active)
FoN (Passive text updated to hp5 instead of hp/sec)
Also, it's showing skin names on the loading screen.
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On April 25 2012 13:15 BlackMagister wrote:
Sunfire cape buff was needed, but I'm not sure if it will be enough for it to be useful still. I really like the Chalice upgrade, I've always wondered what I should build when I want MR and CDR but don't really need Spirit Visage. Force of Nature buff seems to be a response to the other item changes as it was still a item often built.
FoN not buffed, tooltip change only.
.35% max hp / sec = 1.75% max hp / 5 sec
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On April 25 2012 14:05 Inschato wrote:
New recipes and any applicable item changes (Remember this is the PBE and many of these changes may never make it to the live servers):
DFG: Kage's Pick + Blasting Wand + Amplifying Tomb (+20 AP, mp5 removed)
Wait, so no more CDR? Just straight up 80 AP and the passive? Or are they just leaving it and keeping the 15% CDR without need for the Fiendish Codex (which is a huge stat jump essentially for free)? Doesn't sound too bad except it kind of screws over Veigar.
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Yeah it still has the CDR. And yeah I had the same thought in regard to Veigar. On the other hand Chalice is a lot more desirable on him now.
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EPT
