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On April 23 2012 04:53 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:50 sob3k wrote:
How do trilanes work in Dota? In LOL you never have more than one person CSing in a lane, and if you try they fuck up each others last hits a lot. Is only one person CSing in a Dota trilane or do they alternate waves or what? One person CS's, one person denies enemy creeps, and the other funnels creeps from the jungle into the trilane tower for gold/XP. The two supports trade on denying/jungling so they can get gold/items/wards too. The jungle gold a big part of it, and the fact that you can guarantee they get next to zero CS as well. I really think that with the right combination you could make it so the enemy AD gets zero CS in LoL too, just no one has really tried that hard.
No you can't completely deny in LoL, unless you don't lasthit at all and are lucky that the wave pushes your way by random happenstances. If you do lasthit (or if you draw minion aggro, which you most likely will when you try to fully deny someone), your enemy might lose several waves, but at some point he will be able to lasthit under the tower.
Against a decent team you're also not going to be able to dive at that point because the enemy jungler will be waiting for you at the time the wave reaches the tower.
And since your mid will likely not get any blue buffs, the enemy mid will either win outright, or shove the lane and go ganking with the jungler.
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I now want to test kill lanes with Zilean Mid+EXP runes. You think Jarman/Pantheon+Leona is bad? Now they hit level 2 even earlier.
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On April 23 2012 05:28 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:53 iCanada wrote:On April 23 2012 04:50 sob3k wrote:
How do trilanes work in Dota? In LOL you never have more than one person CSing in a lane, and if you try they fuck up each others last hits a lot. Is only one person CSing in a Dota trilane or do they alternate waves or what? One person CS's, one person denies enemy creeps, and the other funnels creeps from the jungle into the trilane tower for gold/XP. The two supports trade on denying/jungling so they can get gold/items/wards too. The jungle gold a big part of it, and the fact that you can guarantee they get next to zero CS as well. I really think that with the right combination you could make it so the enemy AD gets zero CS in LoL too, just no one has really tried that hard. No you can't completely deny in LoL, unless you don't lasthit at all and are lucky that the wave pushes your way by random happenstances. If you do lasthit (or if you draw minion aggro, which you most likely will when you try to fully deny someone), your enemy might lose several waves, but at some point he will be able to lasthit under the tower. Against a decent team you're also not going to be able to dive at that point because the enemy jungler will be waiting for you at the time the wave reaches the tower. And since your mid will likely not get any blue buffs, the enemy mid will either win outright, or shove the lane and go ganking with the jungler.
The two huge differences that make trilanes fail in LOL are no denies and the beastly towers.
Plus if that was really an issue there are plenty of people you just cant deny farm, like run Galio vs a theoretical trilane, you arent going to stop him from QEing and clearing the whole wave, cant dive him either.
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On April 23 2012 05:28 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:53 iCanada wrote:On April 23 2012 04:50 sob3k wrote:
How do trilanes work in Dota? In LOL you never have more than one person CSing in a lane, and if you try they fuck up each others last hits a lot. Is only one person CSing in a Dota trilane or do they alternate waves or what? One person CS's, one person denies enemy creeps, and the other funnels creeps from the jungle into the trilane tower for gold/XP. The two supports trade on denying/jungling so they can get gold/items/wards too. The jungle gold a big part of it, and the fact that you can guarantee they get next to zero CS as well. I really think that with the right combination you could make it so the enemy AD gets zero CS in LoL too, just no one has really tried that hard. No you can't completely deny in LoL, unless you don't lasthit at all and are lucky that the wave pushes your way by random happenstances. If you do lasthit (or if you draw minion aggro, which you most likely will when you try to fully deny someone), your enemy might lose several waves, but at some point he will be able to lasthit under the tower. Against a decent team you're also not going to be able to dive at that point because the enemy jungler will be waiting for you at the time the wave reaches the tower. And since your mid will likely not get any blue buffs, the enemy mid will either win outright, or shove the lane and go ganking with the jungler.
Sure you can.
Hard push the lane while they zoned, then next wave make their minions group up in a concave by tanking them before yours reach theirs; Their minions will all focus fire your minions 1 by 1 and outpush the lane to your side.
Significantly more difficult and less effective than in DotA? Perhaps... Impossible? lol.
Who is to say your mid won't get blue? Just have a mid/top that pushes waves quickly and have your top laner leash it for your mid... if you guys have it warded any counterjungling should be rather difficult. Not to mention, a trilane bot should have like 100% brush control and ward control in that area... how would they know if you MIA or right in the brush waiting to instagib you if you lasthit?
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On April 23 2012 05:28 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:53 iCanada wrote:On April 23 2012 04:50 sob3k wrote:
How do trilanes work in Dota? In LOL you never have more than one person CSing in a lane, and if you try they fuck up each others last hits a lot. Is only one person CSing in a Dota trilane or do they alternate waves or what? One person CS's, one person denies enemy creeps, and the other funnels creeps from the jungle into the trilane tower for gold/XP. The two supports trade on denying/jungling so they can get gold/items/wards too. The jungle gold a big part of it, and the fact that you can guarantee they get next to zero CS as well. I really think that with the right combination you could make it so the enemy AD gets zero CS in LoL too, just no one has really tried that hard. No you can't completely deny in LoL, unless you don't lasthit at all and are lucky that the wave pushes your way by random happenstances. If you do lasthit (or if you draw minion aggro, which you most likely will when you try to fully deny someone), your enemy might lose several waves, but at some point he will be able to lasthit under the tower. Against a decent team you're also not going to be able to dive at that point because the enemy jungler will be waiting for you at the time the wave reaches the tower. And since your mid will likely not get any blue buffs, the enemy mid will either win outright, or shove the lane and go ganking with the jungler.
Trying to cs under turret on someone with ~550 range against a cait can be a huge pain in the ass.
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Problem with trilaning in LoL is the buffs. buffs provide too much utility and thus you need a person controlling them, and it's really difficult to control both your lane AND the buff because your lane opponent is just gonna shove the moment you leave (because he isn't afraid of a jungle gank). Not to mention you don't have effective lane control via denying or pulling.
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United States47024 Posts
Trilanes in DotA still have the problem that if you play trilane vs. 2-1-2 or 2-1-1+jungle, your trilane supports are FUCKED if you don't get kills. Their lack of levels really burns them in midgame fights, particularly if they enemy starts making shit happen when your supports are like levels 4/5 and don't even have their ultimates yet. A trilane without kills has a really rough time midgame against a non-trilane team. The thing is though, unlike in LoL, your trilane supports CAN reliably get kills, both on lane or roaming.
So the flaws of trilaning in DotA are exacerbated by gameplay mechanics in LoL, given that, 1) forcing kills on the enemy lane is harder due to strong towers and summoner spells, 2) getting successful ganks middle is harder due to tigher map geography, unlimited wards, and no Smoke of Deceit, 3) the sidelane on the other side of the map is hugely impractical to gank due to the lack of TP scrolls, and 4) supports have a harder time buffering additional XP due to the lack of creep pulling.
It's not even a question of whether you can execute a complete deny or not. Even a complete deny in DotA isn't good enough if you're playing vs a 1-1-2+jungle. Literally the only goal that a 1v3 has is to not die, and sneak a little gold/xp if they're lucky--they can get levels midgame when your team is basically fighting 4v3s in teamfights with 2 worthlessly underleveled supports. Your trilane HAS to get kills in that scenario.
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in dota why does anyone even stay in lane against a tri lane. if they are going to be completely denied why even be there?
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If.... they have a strong mid/jungle... get this page. SURVIVAL IS KEY. League isnt about killing, but farming 
Just found this quote in one of reginalds guides, thought it was pretty hilarious.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 23 2012 06:07 jadoth wrote:
in dota why does anyone even stay in lane against a tri lane. if they are going to be completely denied why even be there?
Most of the playable 1v2s/1v3s have ways of sneaking XP/lasthits without going into harms way (e.g. nukes with 1500+ range that can be used to lasthit at long range). It's inefficient but it is possible to sneak enough gold/XP for this to be more worthwhile than going to take XP from another lane. If it's absolutely impossible to stay on lane, 1v3 laners often will just go pull creeps for mid, or try to gank, rather than just staying on lane. 2v3s depend on the relative strength of the duo and trilanes, but there are 2v3 matchups that are very playable, and the duo can get farm and levels.
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On April 23 2012 05:47 TheYango wrote:
Trilanes in DotA still have the problem that if you play trilane vs. 2-1-2 or 2-1-1+jungle, your trilane supports are FUCKED if you don't get kills. Their lack of levels really burns them in midgame fights, particularly if they enemy starts making shit happen when your supports are like levels 4/5 and don't even have their ultimates yet. A trilane without kills has a really rough time midgame against a non-trilane team. The thing is though, unlike in LoL, your trilane supports CAN reliably get kills, both on lane or roaming.
So the flaws of trilaning in DotA are exacerbated by gameplay mechanics in LoL, given that, 1) forcing kills on the enemy lane is harder due to strong towers and summoner spells, 2) getting successful ganks middle is harder due to tigher map geography, unlimited wards, and no Smoke of Deceit, 3) the sidelane on the other side of the map is hugely impractical to gank due to the lack of TP scrolls, and 4) supports have a harder time buffering additional XP due to the lack of creep pulling.
It's not even a question of whether you can execute a complete deny or not. Even a complete deny in DotA isn't good enough if you're playing vs a 1-1-2+jungle. Literally the only goal that a 1v3 has is to not die, and sneak a little gold/xp if they're lucky--they can get levels midgame when your team is basically fighting 4v3s in teamfights with 2 worthlessly underleveled supports. Your trilane HAS to get kills in that scenario.
Thing is, nobody runs a 1 man botlane as a consistent strategy. If you change that 1v3 to a 2v3 it is once again 3v3 fights... thing is the team with the trilane has the hardest scaling champ out of the current 1-1-2/jungle shenanigans that is standard in LoL.
I just feel like 1-1-2/jungle isn't the only way to play LoL, I guarantee that there are some other just as effective ways as well. Having a Jungler vs not having a jungler doesn't guarantee map control or buff control... good lanes with solid map awareness could do both without a roamer.
We've already seen 1v2 lanes be successful via M5/CLG in the pro scene, I could see 1-1-1/roam/jungle(ie oldskoool style <3 Eve) be effective if you were to put the AD top and a sustain laner against the other teams AD/Support as well.
Idk mang, maybe I dreaming.
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On April 23 2012 05:07 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
so vayne mid is really strong. beats so many APs
ezreal is king of mid laners imo. only loses out to someone like pantheon or talon lol.
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There was a brief 1-1-1-jungle-roam period in LoL. I was new back then, I don't exactly remember why it became popular/pettered out.
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On April 23 2012 06:44 ManyCookies wrote:
There was a brief 1-1-1-jungle-roam period in LoL. I was new back then, I don't exactly remember why it became popular/pettered out.
Because most of the strong roamers got nerfed and at the time everyone thought AD carries sucked because they got nerfed (red buff nerf and lower movement speeds), and then euro teams promtly started to roll over american teams running 1-1-1/roam/jangle teams with the current 1-1-2/jangle thing.
Everyone went "oh look, AD carries good if you give them a babysitter!" when really AD carries are just good regardless. Now everyone thinks AD carries need to be played with supports in a duo lane, when realistically many of them good solo laners. (trist, Corki, Graves, Vayne, Ez especially)
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On April 23 2012 06:44 ManyCookies wrote:
There was a brief 1-1-1-jungle-roam period in LoL. I was new back then, I don't exactly remember why it became popular/pettered out.
It became a problem because you ended up with an underleveled champion, even if you DID get kills.
Not to mention this was the time before ad-support bot, so the 2 styles clashed until people realized that ad-support was just SAFER than anything else.
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Can somebody on NA tell Soniv that his stream only has sound, no images?
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On April 23 2012 06:50 Alaric wrote:
Can somebody on NA tell Soniv that his stream only has sound, no images?
Just did he said it should be better now
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On April 23 2012 06:53 MooMooMugi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 06:50 Alaric wrote:
Can somebody on NA tell Soniv that his stream only has sound, no images? Just did he said it should be better now
Refreshed, it still black.
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I think he's got a 5 or 10 minute delay on his stream.
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On April 23 2012 06:56 Darth124 wrote:
I think he's got a 5 or 10 minute delay on his stream.
Yeah it good now.
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EPT
