EPTDo you just go rice-mode or does the jungler have to help get a couple kills? Example: Warwick, Lee Sin, Cho.
[Patch 1.0.0.138: Hecarim] General Discussion - Page 136
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
Do you just go rice-mode or does the jungler have to help get a couple kills? Example: Warwick, Lee Sin, Cho. | ||
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
On April 30 2012 09:18 Mondeezy wrote: How the hell do you beat tanky ass top lanes? Or ones with infinite sustain? Do you just go rice-mode or does the jungler have to help get a couple kills? Example: Warwick, Lee Sin, Cho. To be honest I am in no position to say anything close to definitive, but my thought is that one mustn't always "beat" a lane, right? If they cannot deny you, and you cannot push them out of lane, then just take the free farm. If they get too big that you cannot displace them AND you cannot farm, then you have to get the farm that you can, not die, and contribute to team fights. Right? I only say anything just because I get really anxious playing top lane for some reason. Love jungle, perfectly fine in bot, but mid and top give me anxiety. Too often I get in trouble in top lane by forcing risky all-ins too early because I feel like I have to 'win' top. I haven't mastered the art of free farming yet. Could also be that I play in normal games where the opponents likewise do not know how to handle the lane. I've had to tell myself a lot to just take what I can get and play within myself and it's made a lot of difference. That and Riven is OP. | ||
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Parametric
Canada1261 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 30 2012 09:18 Mondeezy wrote: How the hell do you beat tanky ass top lanes? Or ones with infinite sustain? Do you just go rice-mode or does the jungler have to help get a couple kills? Example: Warwick, Lee Sin, Cho. Well you also play douchbags with infinite sustain... for cho you just prevent him from getting last hits and he has no sustain. | ||
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Nafaltar
Germany302 Posts
On April 30 2012 09:18 Mondeezy wrote: How the hell do you beat tanky ass top lanes? Or ones with infinite sustain? Do you just go rice-mode or does the jungler have to help get a couple kills? Example: Warwick, Lee Sin, Cho. It really depends to much on the specific match-up as well as both teams jungler. Plus you have to take the teamcomps and current lane performance in the other lanes into account. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
On April 30 2012 09:27 WirelessWaffle wrote: The answer to top lane for me came in the form of Teemo. Always be an asshole never buy wards. Teemo is the counter to every top lane. Such is the truth of the game. He will show you the scouts code. Go forth and shroom the lane and let them despair at your ability to push all day. | ||
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2071777 Dat vision really going to help you more at blue/dragon/baron fights... | ||
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Praetorial
United States4241 Posts
On April 30 2012 09:57 ManyCookies wrote: Except Swain. Swain demonstrates the tenets of the Noxian Code to Teemo. And Vlad. Vlad walks through all the mushrooms then cackles as he drains yordle blood. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 30 2012 10:36 phyvo wrote: In other news, 73% of the LoL GD community would rather have global map vision than a 5th teammate: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2071777 Dat vision really going to help you more at blue/dragon/baron fights... i think everyone is wrong to value vision over 4 people. if the team of 5 just ward accordingly they 'will' win the laning phase, and then come team fight time they have a major advantage. | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
On April 30 2012 10:36 phyvo wrote: In other news, 73% of the LoL GD community would rather have global map vision than a 5th teammate: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2071777 Dat vision really going to help you more at blue/dragon/baron fights... Well the idea would be that with global map vision you can AVOID the dragon baron fights and just splitpush all day erry day, hopefully ending the game before baron is a major factor. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 30 2012 10:58 turdburgler wrote: i think everyone is wrong to value vision over 4 people. if the team of 5 just ward accordingly they 'will' win the laning phase, and then come team fight time they have a major advantage. No way, think about player roles. The player you are going to not have in a 4v5 would be the support, a player who in large part is there only to give map vision (warding), so the team of 4 really only loses a bit of utility and maybe a heal. There are plenty of champs you can handle a 1v2 lane just fine,especially without ganks, and remember you cannot gank any of the 4's players ever. Not to mention the fact that it would be literally impossible for the team of 5 to ward, as an early oracles will allow the 4 team to instantly see where any ward is placed and clear it immediately. Global vision mean no vision for the enemy team. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On April 30 2012 10:36 phyvo wrote: In other news, 73% of the LoL GD community would rather have global map vision than a 5th teammate: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2071777 Dat vision really going to help you more at blue/dragon/baron fights... I dunno. Hypothetically you should never get ganked. Whereas you'd have a massive ganking advantage (would know if the enemy jungler wasn't near that lane, would know where the other team warded, would know if the team is baiting or just plain over-extended). The hardest part wouldn't be dragon/baron fights, it'd be picking someone who can 1v2 bot lane. Otherwise I'd agree with the LoL community opinion and put my money on the team of 4 assuming they were competent. If you have global vision the entire game that's a much bigger advantage than the disadvantage of being down a person imo. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
Honestly, I've played 4v5s where we absolutely crushed early on but lost later. I'm sure others have too. Map vision gives you more map control but not enough to make up for the TON of it you lose when you're down a player. The team of 5 doesn't need to gank to get ahead because they scale harder, they just have to not get ganked. With good warding it's impossible to gank anyways. You could pink it or oracles but that's a lot of gold and if the jungler's doing it he's still revealing his position. If the 4s jungler ganks bottom it's a weak 2v2 gank and the 5s jungler can just steal a buff, he has numbers on his side. If the 4s jungler ganks somewhere else the 1v2 lane is sacrificed and there just isn't a champion in this game who can 1v2 from level 1. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On April 30 2012 11:06 phyvo wrote: The 5s team doesn't need to send everybody to dragon/baron when the 4s team isn't contesting. The 5s team is also better at split pushing since they have more bodies. Honestly, I've played 4v5s where we absolutely crushed early on but lost later. I'm sure others have too. Map vision gives you more map control but not enough to make up for the TON of it you lose when you're down a player. The team of 5 doesn't need to gank to get ahead because they scale harder, they just have to not get ganked. With good warding it's impossible to gank anyways. You could pink it or oracles but that's a lot of gold and if the jungler's doing it he's still revealing his position. If the 4s jungler ganks bottom it's a weak 2v2 gank and the 5s jungler can just steal a buff, he has numbers on his side. If the 4s jungler ganks somewhere else the 1v2 lane is sacrificed and there just isn't a champion in this game who can 1v2 from level 1. Team of 5 can never ward. There is literally no point to warding because the 4s team will just buy early oracles on their jungler and their jungler will never get caught while clearing all wards they put up. Cho'Gath, Yorick, Galio, and lots of other champions can 1v2 just fine (edit: Sure they don't win level 1, but it doesn't take long at all for them to start winning and considering that lots of AD carries can beat bruisers hard at level 1-3 or so it'll just even out). Lots of teams have done 1v2 lanes since AD/support bottom was first invented and the AD/support can't even counter lane because your team has global vision and can lane swap before they even get to the lane. Not to mention the fact that nearly every AD carry can solo lane in mid or top just fine. I don't know why the team of 5 would try and split push lol. They'll just end up giving the team of 4 free kills they split push too far, would be in their best interest to stick together and push lanes trying to force fights. That's assuming they don't lose lane super hard though and with global vision the team of 4 would basically just have to play like shit to lose lane phase lol. | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
Presumably this is being considered as a way to balance a 4v5 situation when one player drops from the game/goes AFK, not as a new game mode where you know before hand (so no chance to pick champs specifically for a 4v5). If we assume this is the case then there are two very important variables: 1) Which player (role) was dropped, and 2) at what point did this drop happen? Your AD carry dropping will have a different impact than your support dropping for instance (many seem to assume it is the support who is missing, which is probably the best case scenario for a 4v5, but only has a 1/5 chance of being the case; though some role swapping is also possible such as support taking mid). There's also a huge difference if the 4v5 situation happens early (the map vision is a huge boon in this case and if the team of 4 can press an early advantage they have a good chance to win) or if it happens late (close game at 50 minutes and one person drops?, no amount of map vision is going to fix that). | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On April 30 2012 11:30 Goragoth wrote: Presumably this is being considered as a way to balance a 4v5 situation when one player drops from the game/goes AFK, not as a new game mode where you know before hand. And that would be a reasonably correct assumption. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
<3? | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On April 30 2012 11:30 Goragoth wrote: Presumably this is being considered as a way to balance a 4v5 situation when one player drops from the game/goes AFK, not as a new game mode where you know before hand (so no chance to pick champs specifically for a 4v5). Would be really dumb if they implemented that into the game. People could just d/c to give their team global vision and then re-connect. A much better option would be to just let you surrender at 10 minutes if someone d/c's imo. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
The team of 5 can 4-1 push pretty easily. What's the point of ganking a nidalee or tryndamere, who are hard to gank, if you lose your turret mid 2v4? Or lose baron? Or drag? With drag the obvious result is you get nidalee while they get dragon. That's a favorable trade for them. They don't have to do it if their comp is bad for it but it's an option. I think you overestimate 1v2ing even with AD carry bot + support (which isn't even ideal 2v1). The reason why it works in pro games is because you've got a 2v1 lane elsewhere and the combination of the two lanes works better for you. Both lanes, normally, are denied fairly hard and only really catch up when left to themselves to farm. This is simply not the same as a team of 4 with global map vision. Even IF I cede that the 5s team has some of an early game disadvantage their late game advantage is huge by virtue of just having another person to force objectives with. | ||
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